Remington 700 Action

[Ronin]

Bambi

 

I aggree with what you say regarding a design that is in essence flawed and requires work to make "perfect"

 

Had I been blessed with hindsight when I had my 6.5x284 worked on I would have bought a custom action and still (probably) have ended up paying the same.

 

It really is imaterial though, as everyone is different and what suites one person will not necessarily be the best choice for another.

 

Great thread by the way

[6ppc]

I know Callum doesnt recommend doing a remmy unless you already own the action.

[Bambi-basher]

And since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....B-B, what would you be shooting if the Japs hadnt gotten their hands on a Rem 700???

 

308Panther

 

Hi Panther

 

The Howa is not with out it’s faults and I am not blind to them, but for the money you get a well put together rifle, not perfect though. Personally if I was prepared to spend the cash I would have a Sako or a RPA, in the case of the RPA not perhaps because it has major advantages over other actions but because it is made in Britain.

 

When choosing your rifle total objectivity sometimes gives way to the subjective feelings or your choice is influenced by somebody you respect, may be the person who introduced you to stalking or shooting.

 

I get the impression that Americans seem more patriotic than the average Brit’ (not necessarily a bad thing) and there for tend to purchase US made products irrespective sometimes of the products true value when compared to foreign imports, this loyal large home base allows their products to compete while other wise they would be unable every thing else being equal. IMHO

 

Surely your admission that it will need some personalising gives a yes to my opening question?

 

Quote:-PPC

 

I know Callum doesnt recommend doing a remmy unless you already own the action.

 

Say it all really does it not?

 

B-b

[Guest Smeagle]

Yeah I am sorry to say it and no offence is intended but the Americans suffer with with a severe case of NIHS (not invented here syndrome) and as a result nearly all western armies have had to suffer under the 5.56 for nearly 40 years, they are only now going to a decent calibre which they could have had then, but wouldn't go British. As for the Japs well there are any number of things that have been developed else where that they have an unceasing talent for making work.

 

Where did this impression come from that the Americans and Remington in particular invented the bolt action rifle, no they did not. Like so many things the Americans lay claim to they did not invent but did as the Japs are doing simply imitated and mass produced cheaper. As for the Winny mod 70 apart from no one in their right mind would use one as the basis of a custom rifle whether is be pre or post 64 in case you haven't noticed its a Mauser action. The last time I looked they where German. If you want to have a 'mil spec' Remington that's your business just remember that there is really no such thing as the US Army and USMC rebuild them basically into custom rifles to get them to work to a reasonable standard and no its not to shoot better just to get them to work operationally. Both of whom wanted the L96 but wasn't allowed it as it would cost jobs at home so they came up with the excuse that you couldn't stalk with the stock, so they stuck with Remington and restocked to the McSlow A4 and then A5, which is even heavier and more awkward. So when you look at it Remington is little more than a cheap copy of an excisting design that in recent years has been made even cheaper.

 

But then again the Americans think Harley invented motorcycles, Ford invented cars and Bourbon is the only whiskey in the world.

[Guest 308Panther]

"Surely your admission that it will need some personalising gives a yes to my opening question?"

 

No....Many shoot just fine without any modifications at all.

Granted,they are being made cheaper than ever before...but most still shoot just fine outta the box.

Mainly the ones gettin the work done are the ones competeing...or doing alot of shooting.

 

"I know Callum doesnt recommend doing a remmy unless you already own the action.

 

Say it all really does it not?"

 

Again ...No,

You have to own one to turn in to the smithy to have the job done.....standard practice over here.

I am not gonna borrow a friends and turn that one in to be done and have it assembled into my rifle and give my freind my old action....That just might p+ss of my friend.

And I wouldnt recommend renting one to do this to either...

Besides...Serial Numbers are on the action,and are recorded/logged in on the smithy's records.

 

I never said the Americans lay claim to inventing the bolt actioned rifle....or that Remington invented the bolt actioned rifle,

I was refering to alot of similarities to the Howa and the Rem 700... so much so as the Howa even uses Rem 700 scope mounts.

Many a Mauser has gotten the treatment,rechambered,rebarreled and has been used for many a wildcat cartridge.

the Win 70 is no differant.

Who wouldnt want a L96??

But the cost of the L96 vs Rem 700 speaks for itself...even if you spend the same amount of the cost of a Rem 700 to fix it

you can still buy 2 Rems and fixes to 1 L96 and thereby have 2 soldiers fighting w/ Rem 700's instead of one w/L 96.

 

 

Kenny Jarret of Jarret Rifles will not fit a Sako extractor to his jobs...He feels that if there were any type of gas leak it would blowback into the shooter's face.Possibly even imbedding the extractor in the shooter's cheek.

Many,many rifles have over 20,000 rounds cycled w/out breaking an extractor.

 

Sorry...But I prefer Irish Whiskey

Harley is the only M/C

And dont make me say the "F" word....This isnt F...Fo....For....Ah Hell,I wont own one.

 

308Panther

[ejg223]

I always remember my father a german engineer and my uncle a retired US army colonel

arguing about the rifles in the WW2, my father was raving about the precision of the mauser

how bad the american M1(or whatever) was. My uncles reply would just be, 'we had a lot of em'

Now my uncle shoots a 8x57 mauser and my father uses a underlever, a colt revolver and a nagant.

 

 

edi

[Bambi-basher]

Hi Panther

 

I will respond To the parts of the post that pertain to myself, Smeagle can fight his own battles.

 

No....Many shoot just fine without any modifications at all.

Granted,they are being made cheaper than ever before...but most still shoot just fine outta the box.

 

You will see that in my first post I said:- “Now while as a standard factory rifle the Remmy 700 might have its good points” and shooting reasonably well from the box is one of them.

 

"I know Callum doesnt recommend doing a remmy unless you already own the action.

 

Say it all really does it not?"

 

Again ...No,

You have to own one to turn in to the smithy to have the job done.....standard practice over here.

I am not gonna borrow a friends and turn that one in to be done and have it assembled into my rifle and give my freind my old action....That just might p+ss of my friend.

 

I think you might of missed the point or are you being pert antic? Of cause you would only have a action worked on that belonged to your self. I would assume that what Callum meant was that don’t waste your money buying a Remmington 700 action as a base for a custom rifle, it needs too much work. Start with a Custom action or a better standard factory action.

 

I was refering to alot of similarities to the Howa and the Rem 700... so much so as the Howa even uses Rem 700 scope mounts.

 

The Howa bolt is a good copy of the 700 bolt, Remmy got that bit right, and yes the minor point of the scope mounting being the same is true, but I think they could have come up with something better, built in weave base would have been nice.

 

That is all they took from the Remmington.

 

Kenny Jarret of Jarret Rifles will not fit a Sako extractor to his jobs...He feels that if there were any type of gas leak it would blowback into the shooter's face.Possibly even imbedding the extractor in the shooter's cheek.

 

Back to quote from a pervious post of mine:- “The extractor is often replace by custom gunsmith with a Sako one as the Remmy one is perceived to be too fragile.”You will note the word "perceived" so I am not convinced in it being necessary also, but some smiths undoubtedly do.

 

 

ATB

 

B-b

[Guest Smeagle]

I will take it you are a GM man or Holdens as they are known out here. The competition between the two is fierce out here, kind of like the soccer in the UK.

 

"God is not on the side of the big battalion but the best shots"

 

Volter, this is the snipers mantra, to do the job of ten with one, so to put two in the field as opposed to one is converse to the basic principles of the role.

 

When was the last time Harley won the Dakar Rally or anything else for that matter apart from a tractor pull?

[Vermincinerator]

Callum is in a postiton where he doesnt need to work over a Remmy action if he doesnt want to!

For many smiths this kind of action blue-printing is their bread and butter.

As for Sako extractors i have read of several smiths who only fit these extractors if the boltface has been modified, these same guys also explain the possibillity of a super-sonic flying extractor should you have a case blow out.

 

Ian.

[Guest 308Panther]

Cant say I am much of a GM person...only owned 3..and drove 2 the 3rd was a project that never quite got started...

'64 Chev Impala w/ a 283 cid v8....wanted to put in a 396 cid v8 w/a 4 sp trans...had a hi perf block and lrg port heads but it never got past the point of being my light stand in my bedroom. Great conversation piece and the chics loved it.

 

I'm basically a Mopar Fan..Had 4 or 5 of their products...

 

Harley does quite well.....When racing Davidsons....

 

Doin more with less is always expected of any man that worth his weight....not just in the military...Just ask my boss

Cause I sure would like to get away from the junk he has me workin on.....

So where does doin more with lesser equipment fall into place??? Besides my company of employment...

 

 

"I think you might of missed the point or are you being pert antic?"

 

Ummm......Both ???

Call me a dumb smart a+s if ya will....The uses of some of the words in the texts has got me not only questioning the meaning of words used since childhood....but ya also got me researchin them on web dictionary and web theasorus and darn near any other text at the disposal....And it really gets interestin when ya'll dont use capitols or punctuation marks in the great big long paragarph...Some of them I gotta chew on for a few hours...And when I bust a gut laughin at somethin said...Angel is like "What,What" and then try and read it all to her.....without laughin!!!

 

Like alot of things in this world the Rem 700 is either a love it or hate it kind of thing....

 

Same could be said for alot of other rifles,pistols,or shotguns too....

 

Especially that damned thumb bustin M1 Garand !!!!!

 

I'll take my DPMS Panther LR 308(AR 10) Any day of the week.

 

308Panther

[Guest Smeagle]

Well I have to agree, I will take my Armalite AR 10 any day of the week. It is just in the hospital at the minute having a yet another new barrel and rail fitted. Gone shorter on the barrel this time, know I will lose velocity but will gain in handling.

 

I wouldn't mind getting one of those fancy pistol grips you guys get, the ones they come with are pretty ordinary.

[Guest varmartin]

Hell...you guys have been chewing on the 700 for some time now .

Its made good reading too , most of it has gone over my head though .

 

Do i like the 700 action...yes ( now mine has been customised/re-barrelled to 6mm BR Norma. )

 

Would i have another.....Depends on how much i wanted to spend.

If money were no object ......Then No...simply because there are better actions to choose.

 

I just wish i could shoot it as well as i can my Sako 75...1~8 twist in .223rem

 

Martin

[Guest 308Panther]

Sorry to hear your AR is needin surgery..

Hope it comes back feeling better than ever.

 

That reminds me ...I gots to make an appointment w/ the Prez...

Need to test out a new mag..

 

308Panther

[JR__]

Oh boy,

 

Gone for a week and look at all this nonsense. Ha..

 

Remington M700, elegant in it's simplicity, sloppy at first glance but sleek in it's execution, and by gawd they can be built to shoot better than you. You can build one hell of a nice rifle off a remington action, and no one should ever, and I mean ever, shudder at the thought of doing so if the opportunity presents itself..The basic design of the 7 series has been around for some decades now, and there's a reason not a lot of major changes have been made. It works.

 

There is a lot of things I admire about the Remington design, things I don't care much for, things I'd change, and things I despise about the quality control the past few decades. Saying that, I've built or have been involved with a lot of rifles off of the 7 series actions over the years, in the tens of thousands, and wouldn't hesitate to build more off that platform. For all it's faults, big green delivers..Put it this way, I would gladly build another for myself. I wish the bolt fit was better, I wish the round receivers were actually round, I wish this and that, but at the end of the day if I've built a rifle off a so called piece of that which promotes growth and vigour receiver that prints groups in the .2's for myself, functions every time I throw that bolt back, extracts every round fired, and makes me think if there is a problem does not point in the action's fault, well, what does that say...

 

Never said Remington was precision built, they definitely roll with production tolerances, and there are actions which are made to tighter specifications. But they are a good platform. US armed forces, secret service, FBI, every civil Law Enforcement agency, Homeland Security, airport security, well they believe in their Remingtons. Dad, an ex 'Nam US Army sniper, lends his life to the Remington. Would he have done better with a Barnard, or an RPA? Nope.

 

So let's not bastardise the Rem700 just yet. It's earned its stripes, and deserves a bit of respect. Maybe that's the wrong way around, because rifles built on Rem 700 actions here earn every bit of respect they can muster..

 

JR

[Bambi-basher]

Hi JR

 

I wondered were you had been as I expected you to be one of it’s main defenders. I did think we had finished with this post, but once more I dive into the breach to man any weapon other than a Remmington 700 to do battle.

 

Well for saying you are in the 700 corner you do make a good case for not buying one.

 

As a American I think to a extent we see the common national trait of not looking at it in a totally rational way because it was built in the “Good Old USA”. If sentimentally and respect for how a rifle did in the fields of battle was a bias to choose our rifles all us Brits’ would be using sportarized 303 Lee Enfields. A rifle that has account for more of the enemy than a Remmy 700 shooting a few “gooks” labouring with a mortar base plate ever did. Yes I would have a 303 just for admiration and reverence for the rifle and the men that carried it into battle, but I would not try and use that as a bias to build a custom rifle from it.

 

Time has moved of since the 700 was designed 40 years ago, both in design terms and manufacturing tolerances, but Remmington will make them the same way as long as you carry on buying them, and who could blame them, the bottom line is they are in it to make money.

 

But they are a good platform. US armed forces, secret service, FBI, every civil Law Enforcement agency, Homeland Security, airport security, well they believe in their Remingtons. Dad, an ex 'Nam US Army sniper, lends his life to the Remington.

JR

 

Did you really expect any of the USA agencies to buy any thing else but a American built rifle, for political reasons it was never on the cards irrespective of how good it might be.

 

Can you say that a Sako or even the Jap’ crap Howa action is not technically a better designed action than a 700? We have no need to mention how well made they are compared to the Remmy, like you say they can’t even turn a round action.

 

Nice to see that you have a Remmington based rifle that shoots .2s, I never said that they could not be made to shoot well, it is the amount of work you have to put in them is my point.

 

 

I have a rifle that shoots .250”s, done in front of witness, with a 3-9X50 hunting scope on.

 

 

It has had a small amount of work done, well the barrel has been shortened to 20” and a T8 modderator fitted other than that it is standard, who was the manufacture?..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

 

Howa.

 

Says it all really.

 

B-b

[JR__]

B-B,

 

Was kind of you to wait for me. Kinda lost t'internet for a while..

 

"Well for saying you are in the 700 corner you do make a good case for not buying one. "

 

Say again? Yer kinda full of yourself when you get the opportunity eh..

 

"As a American I think to a extent we see the common national trait of not looking at it in a totally rational way because it was built in the “Good Old USA”.

 

Common national trait. Common. Nice, classification, typical snobbery. We do buy american when we can, because it is american made, but not solely because it is so. The Yanks figured something out that the Brits didn't, or could afford to try, as were still on rations, hah..Make something so simple and accessible, yet functional in a manner which could be accepted in all realms of bolt rifle shooting applications. KISS. Keep it open to aftermarket parts, and sky's the limit. Not so sentimental and redundant then, should be and is a revelation to all those in the gun industry currently. Brilliant concept, 40 years on it still sells..Must be something going for it.

 

303, a fine round indeed.

 

JR

[Bambi-basher]

Yer kinda full of yourself when you get the opportunity eh..

Only when I am on a bit of a wind up JR.

 

Common. Nice, classification, typical snobbery.

 

Snob me, I was a free school's dinner boy. The common I used was in the context of a large number of the population. Nothing to do with class.

 

We do buy american when we can, because it is american made, but not solely because it is so.

 

Nothing wrong with patriotism, it is a pity that more Brits were not more patriotic but we put the real value of the product first, while it seems that Americans appear to put Made in the USA first. Sorry JR I don’t take your reassurances that this is not the case, but I would not expect you to admit it on this post.

 

KISS.

I am tempted to say it would need to be for the USA market ,but I don’t really believe that. Has the Howa action not less parts and is even more simple?

 

303, a fine round indeed.

The thing is the British Army realised it was not that good back before the First World War, and decided that the .276 (270) was a far better bore size, I see it is the bore size that the USA army is now looking at. Hope it doesn’t take them 90 years to realise that the 700 is lacking in many areas.

 

Back to the crutch of the matter you did not answer my question:- Can you say that a Sako or even the Jap’ crap Howa action is not technically a better designed action than a 700? We have no need to mention how well made they are compared to the Remmy.

 

B-b

[baldie]

I shot a "smellie" last year B-b, at strensall, one we had for sale, with some milsurp greek ammo. I put 3 in the "v" bull, and 2 in the bull, at 300 yards, from 5 shots.....so some did shoot. Personally i dont like them, i,ve a slot on my ticket for a k98 mauser, and inferior rifle accuracy wise, but a lot more character for me.

[Guest Smeagle]

Yeah well you talk about the old SMLE, AIA are building a bush rifle out here that is a No4 basically, but in .308 with det mag, mini gun barrel option with a 50,000 round barrel life guarantee. It isn't pretty but hell it works and every time and at the same price as a SPS it is worth the shekels.

 

As for the Remington the argument is going around in circles, and the advocates for them still say the same stuff they are used by so and so, but yes they are, mainly for political reasons. Also that once you have done this and that you have a fine rifle, well you shouldn't need to do this and that. That is the point.

[Guest 308Panther]

There are 3 weapons here in the US,that we LOVE to customize....for no reason.

Other than to say we did...Everyone of the 3 dont really need it.We just do it for the

fun of it...And because we like to spend money too. It really gets to the wives,too....

It becomes our turn to say....But Honey,Its on sale!!!!

 

The Custom 3 and in no special order...

 

The AR wether its a 15 or a 10...doesnt matter,Take your pick...

The 1911...Springfield,Colt,S&W...Take your pick of manufacture

and last

The Rem 700....

 

Now in all cases you can buy better...

I will admit that...HA!!!

But why buy better when you can make it better??

Thats half the fun...The other half is pickin out the parts ya want to use.

Then handin them over to a smithy and say...I want it to do this...Make it happen.

 

So...

To answer the question.

A triumph of relentless development over good basic design?

That depends on the rifle owners degree of satisfaction with the Base Product.

And the same can be said for any gun.

If you are not happy with it....then your gonna tweak it some.

 

308Panther

[baldie]

I,m not going to say who, or where it was built B-b, but if it was mine, i would not be happy at all. not fair of me really to judge the action , on one gun really, when i,m fairly sure the guns problems lie elsewhere. A gun like this should put ANY ammo, inside an inch, never mind handloads, and as yet, it wont.

[Bambi-basher]

I have been involved with or owned 5 Howas and the worse one would shoot a 1” group with factory ammo, the best a ¼ of that. All had there barrels floated but other than that they were standard.

 

B-b

[baldie]

I,ve just spent nearly 4 hours, stripping a standard howa trigger, stoning, and honing the sear, and blade, and fully polishing all internals, fitting weaker springs, and generally going to town on it, to get a better lighter pull, that is safe. I finished up at a very smooth 2lbs, that snaps like a glass rod.This is one of the few drawbacks to the howa....there isn,t a good match grade trigger available for it...the timney wont go safely that low without similar work. These are fine for a hunting rifle, not so hot for a match gun.The only way to get a lower weight will involve spring reduction on the firing pin i think, which in turn, could cause other problems. What it really needs, is a 3 levered trigger unit.

[Vermincinerator]

BB,

The IDF only equip themselves with the best "proven" armaments thats why they choose the CAR15 as the standard battle rifle and the M24 (Rem 700) sniper rifle complete with Leuppy scope.

 

Ian

[Bambi-basher]

BB,

The IDF only equip themselves with the best "proven" armaments thats why they choose the CAR15 as the standard battle rifle and the M24 (Rem 700) sniper rifle complete with Leuppy scope.

 

Ian

 

That is strange all them products seem to be made in the good old USA. Hummmmmmmmmmmm.. Strange that. Because who supplies and and to a extent funds the IDF?

 

For “Proven” well for that you could substitute Old.

 

You mean the best sniper rifle is a tweaked Remmington 700?

 

The best assault rifle is the Car15?

 

The best scope in the world is a Leuppy?

 

 

What about this For a selection instead?

 

For a sniper rifle lets start with a AIAW L96 (even Panther said it was better, but too expensive.)

 

For a assault rifle well the CAR15 is good, but I understand that the Elite units are having the insides modified by Hekler and kock. You could look at a MP5K.

 

For scopes well Leupold are good for the money but cost no object, what about a S@B the US marine corps thought it was the best.

 

B-b