Jump to content

Short Barrel 6.5x47 Recommended Powder


Blaserman

Recommended Posts

Hi all, I have a 19" barrel on my 6.5x47, currently using 130g VLD Hunting with Varget, average speed is 2807fps, would it be possible to achive a greater velocity using a different powder? I'm not one to chase velocity, but the current shortage of Varget means I'm going to have to find an alternative pretty soon and I've been told that Varget is a little fast for the 130g bullet, cheers, Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would have thought that vel is in the realistic ballpark for this bullet weight/short barrel.

 

Varegt is perfect for 120/123 class so it def isn't miles out for a 130, esp in a short barrel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jeez!! Running 6.5X47L / 130gn Berger VLD combinations through QuickLOAD suggests one of three possibilities:

 

(1) QuickLOAD doesn't work properly with this cartridge. (It does - I'm working loads up myself for the cartridge and have plenty of confirmation).

(2) Your chronograph doesn't work properly, like it reads a little :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: HIGH.

(3) You should invest in head protection and kevlar underpants as you're running some SERIOUSLY over the top pressures.

 

.......... or (4) can you advise where to buy this wonder lot of Varget?

 

Moving on to possible Varget substitutes bearing in mind the general shortage of Hodgdon / IMR powders.

 

In order to get any MV increase (wow!) over what you have now, you'd have to go to a double-base or high-energy powder. Possibilities are:

 

Hodgdon H414 - a Hodgdon powder, but not too popular here so might be available. A bit too slow burning and won't give 100% charge burn in this set-up, so a mucky moddy, muzzle blast and flash issues.

 

Ramshot Wild Boar. This is available, but is really a little too fast burning and is marginal in the cartridge - full pressure before you get highest MV.

 

Ramshot Big Game, another Ramshot fine-grained ball powder. It looks very well suited running it through QuickLOAD, but I've no experience myself or know of anybody who's tried it yet in this 6.5.

 

Viht N540 or N550. A lot of people use N550 in the cartridge and get good results and high velocities. Hannams has been out of stock for ages though, so it may be very difficult to find in any gunshop. N540 would work, but is a bit too fast burning in my view and velocities would be down. Running many of these powders through QuickLOAD - and this is an excellent example - shows frighteningly large pressure increases for small charge weight increments in the little 6.5.

 

N540 is one of the three powders Viht lists for the cartridge in its very limited loads data - 34.2gn starting / 39.7gn maximum for the 123gn Lapua Scenar match and 33.0gn starting / 34.7gn maximum for the 139gn Lapua Scenar match. (MVs are 2,976 for the 123 and 2,743 for the 139gn bullet for maximum loads - and these are with a 27.5-inch barrel!) In any event, according to Viht's data, N540 gives noticeably higher MVs with both bullets than either N140 or N150 the other two powder grades listed.

 

A powder that is really well suited in theory at any rate is Alliant Re15 if any is still to be found in the shops. I say it looks really well suited, but people who've tried it report mixed results. Some love it, some say it's p*ss-poor!

 

Alliant Re17 / Commonside Firearms Elcho 17 (same thing, but E17 is a lot cheaper). I'm sure there are more than a few on this forum using this pair. It's the dog's whatsits for top velocities in a lot of smaller / mid size 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges alongside N550. May be a bit temperature sensitive with sudden pressure increases in hot weather. Brian Fox sells Elcho 17 from his shop in the Diggle range house and usually has it in stock - not too far from you.

 

The problem with all of these powders and particularly N550 and Re17 / E17 is that they produce top velocities, but also top barrel wear if you run them on the red line. It therefore depends on what sort of round count you do - target shooting users have to think of barrel life a lot, many sporting shooters not so much.

 

Looking at single-base possibilities.

 

Viht N140 and Commonside Firearms' Swiss TR140 work but are on the fast-burning side which limits MVs quite severely.

 

Viht N150 - my personal favourite. It won't give the highest MVs even with slightly compressed charges but works very well. I'm about to run some test loads on the range shortly with the heavier jacket Target version of the 130gn VLD with the powder, so will see how it works out.

 

Lovex (Czech) single-base stick powders. SO62 (Accurate-4064) is marginal like N140 as being a bit too fast burning.

 

Lovex SO65 is well suited according to QuickLOAD. THis powder has an 'official' burning rate on the Lovex chart that is identical to that of VarGet. My experience is that it's a bit bulkier and bit slower burning so you can't get Varget type MVs in .308 Win, and that'll apply even more to the smaller case 6.5X47L. The Lovex importer / distributor (Westlander Limited) is out of stock right now but expects more soon - I imagine he'll have it for the British Shooting and Country Show on their stand next month. I've not tried it yet in this cartridge, but will in due course, as it looks promising.

 

Lovex SO70 is the old Accurate 4350 slower burner. Many people get good results with 4350 class powders in 6.5X47 Lapua with 130-142gn bullets. It looks good on QuickLOAD, but I did get told on another forum just yesterday that compressed loads were still too low with sooty cases, poor MVs and groups.

 

 

This debate isn't just a Brit one - there are LOTS of Americans on their forums right now with exactly the same problem, 6.5X47L and no VarGet available in their local shops and through the big mail order suppliers who won't even take orders now.

 

Some Americans are trying IMR-4007ssc, a short-cut single-base powder in the cartridge with claimed good results. It's still available in the US as it's not been a successful powder since its launch maybe 5 years ago as it doesn't produce top velocities in anything other than .22-250 Rem (where it's said to be the dog's whatsits with 55s). It has been imported by Edgar Brothers, but I've yet to meet anybody else who's tried it or even heard of it here, so there may be the odd unsold bottle sitting on dealers' shelves. I tried it in 308 Win with heavy bullets - good accuracy, but not enough velocity even with over full-case loads.

 

So, there are a few possibilities for those struggling to feed their 6.5X47Ls - and I reckon there will be a lot more such people around before we get to the end of this year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all, many thanks for your replies, I'm very happy with the velocity, I just wondered if any other powder would give a velocity increase (not double base powders though), seeing as I'm going to be looking for an alternative. Incidentally, the load is 38.6g of Varget, this is actually the lower accuracy node, I used to run it with 39.6g of Varget for an average of 2865fps! No pressure signs at all, brass on their 6th reload, for at least the last 1500 rounds. I only dropped to this load to try to maybe give the barrel a little more life. By the way Laurie, you were the one who told me that Varget was a little too fast for the 6.5x47! The load has been confirmed with a Chrony, and two Magnetospeed chronographs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blaserman

I am shooting a 18" Barrel 6.5 x 47 Lap using Reloader 17 in my short range tactical comp rig

I use Lapua 123gn Scenars

41gn of R17

2810 fps average

No pressure signs and accurate to 600

Seems to work for my setup, But I don't think I could get any more speed out of it without pushing it to the edge?

 

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi walkabout, I've tried Reloader 15 and 17, both when the barrel started life at 26" in length, but neither gave the accuracy of the Varget, it was giving me an average of 3011fps with that length of barrel (123g, not 130g!), but have not tried it since I've shortened it to 19". I was incidentally getting over 3400fps with 95g V-Max, when it was 26", still no pressure signs. Do you think it would be worth a try now its 19"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi walkabout, I've tried Reloader 15 and 17, both when the barrel started life at 26" in length, but neither gave the accuracy of the Varget, it was giving me an average of 3011fps with that length of barrel (123g, not 130g!), but have not tried it since I've shortened it to 19". I was incidentally getting over 3400fps with 95g V-Max, when it was 26", still no pressure signs. Do you think it would be worth a try now its 19"?

 

What powder did you get theese results with the 95 vmax from?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blaserman

I went from 27" to 25" to 22" to 18"...don't ask I was bored!

No seriously I decided to make up a short range rifle for up to 600 yrds

One that did not have to put 5 rounds through a 5p piece but hit a 5" gong at 600yds consistently...me doing my bit!

It does that easily, and does what I want it to do, I am lucky to have different rifles for longer ranges

A few on this forum have seen it in action and it works

I would try R17 again, I have never used 130's as I am happy with 123's and I think the 6.5 x 47 works best with them...my opinion only!

I have tried Varget in it since being a 18", the Velocity was less (measured with my Magnetospeed) and was just as accurate as R17 but R17 was faster with no pressure signs

 

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're getting those velocities from three chronos, I can only suggest the kevlar clothing purchase urgently. 6.5X47L simply CANNOT produce them from a 19-inch barrel with a 130gn bullet without exceeding 70,000 psi, proof load pressures plus a bit.

 

When you run QuickLOAD, to get really accurate results you need the COAL that matches the chamber throat and a fireformed case's water capacity. Putting absolutely everything at the 'right' end of the spectrum - 2.950" COAL that has only a tenth of an inch of bullet shank in the case-neck and increasing the case capacity from 48.0gn to 49.0gn water (my chamber produces fireformed brass that hold 48.8gn), reduces the 39.6gn charge peak pressure to an above CIP level of 64,000 psi. BUT ..... 64,000 and a bit psi will only propel a 130gn Berger VLD to a calculated 2,723 fps from a 19-inch barrel. Rejigging things to get to your 2,865 fps MV takes a combination that produces 77,500 psi pressure.

 

I always say to people that QuickLOAD is just a computer modelling tool, albeit an amazingly accurate and sophisticated one that professional ballisticians and cartridge designers / ammunition manufacturers would have killed for a single generation ago. Results to two and three decimal places and suchlike can and do give it a spurious impression of precision at times though. Lots of things can be finagled, and sometimes need to be, to get to exactly what may be happening in a firearm: internal barrel dimensions, shot-start pressures depending on whether the bullet is in or out of the lands ...... and so on and so forth, but there is a HUGE discrepancy here. Something has to be way out of line somewhere.

 

Berger's own handloading manual's loads gives VarGet the third lowest MV out of its selection of 13 propellants, quoting a starting load of 32.0gn and a maximum of 35.8gn for its two 130gn bullets, and that's at a COAL of 2.800". My chamber is such that I have to load the 130gn VLD somewaht shorter, and that's what seems to apply to most rifles in the calibre unless the owner specifically asked the gunsmith to ream the throat out longer to suit 140gn VLDs for long-range match use. The Berger manual loads are pretty wishy-washy on the whole and can usually be worked up higher, so I doubt if 35.8gn is an absolute maximum upper limit running at or near a red line, but it's getting on for four grain below what you've used and that is a huge amount in a cartridge with the 47's modest case capacity. The Berger max load MV is 2,700 fps, but from a 24-inch barrel. Extra / lost MV is generally modest with this cartridge per inch of barrel again because of the case capacity / charge size to bore volume ratios, but it appears to run at ~20 fps / inch above 22 inches, but once you go below that you lose more running at 25-30 fps per inch change. Even if we take the lower value, a five inch barrel length reduction from Berger's data drops the MV to 2,600 fps, more likely below. It takes a lot of additional energy and pressure to increase a 130gn 6.5mm bullet's MV from this level to your 2,865 fps in a 19-inch tube.

 

Walkabout's Re17 load for an 18-inch barrel 6.5X47 Lapua with the 123gn Scenar gave me an opportunity to 'calibrate' QuickLOAD results using my COAL with that bullet and fireformed case capacity, 'my' reamer being pretty typical of those used by many gunsmiths. With the bullet just off the lands, the COAL is 2.650" with this bullet. I've also used my case capacity of 48.8gn water (QuickLOAD default is 48.0gn) and that lowers pressures a bit. Here are the results:

 

Cartridge : 6.5 x 47 Lapua
Bullet : .264, 123, Lapua Scenar GB489 6032
Useable Case Capaci: 42.394 grain H2O = 2.753 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.650 inch = 67.31 mm
Barrel Length : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.922% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-09.2 91 37.22 2548 1773 47159 11885 96.7 1.064
-08.3 92 37.60 2574 1810 48601 12006 97.1 1.049
-07.4 93 37.98 2601 1847 50087 12124 97.5 1.034
-06.5 94 38.36 2627 1885 51623 12237 97.8 1.019
-05.5 94 38.73 2654 1924 53208 12346 98.1 1.005
-04.6 95 39.11 2680 1962 54845 12451 98.4 0.991 ! Near Maximum !
-03.7 96 39.49 2707 2001 56535 12551 98.6 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
-02.8 97 39.87 2733 2040 58282 12646 98.9 0.963 ! Near Maximum !
-01.8 98 40.24 2760 2080 60087 12737 99.1 0.950 ! Near Maximum !
-00.9 99 40.62 2786 2120 61952 12822 99.3 0.937 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 100 41.00 2813 2160 63880 12903 99.5 0.924 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.9 101 41.38 2839 2201 65877 12978 99.6 0.911 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.8 102 41.76 2865 2242 67941 13048 99.7 0.898 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.8 103 42.13 2891 2283 70077 13112 99.8 0.886 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.7 104 42.51 2918 2325 72287 13171 99.9 0.873 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.6 105 42.89 2944 2367 74573 13224 100.0 0.861 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

 

And that was a first run, no fiddling to get any particular result, honest. I wouldn't have expected the QuickLOAD result to have been THAT close, but given Re17 performance that produces an extra 100 fps over most other powders, 150 fps in this application over the N150 I use, Walkabout's MV for the 123gn Scenar seemed in the right area.

 

So, you see my concerns here?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie

I also use Quickload

My case capacity is 48gn H2o

I see your QuickLOAD calculation is 42.394?

 

Mark

 

 

Mark, that 42.394 value is 'usable capacity' which is what you get from the combination in my rifle with the 123gn Scenar. That is 48.8gn fireformed, unsized case capacity less the amount of space that the bullet takes up when seated to 2.650" COAL.

 

Laurie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all, many thanks for your replies, I'm very happy with the velocity, I just wondered if any other powder would give a velocity increase (not double base powders though), seeing as I'm going to be looking for an alternative. Incidentally, the load is 38.6g of Varget, this is actually the lower accuracy node, I used to run it with 39.6g of Varget for an average of 2865fps! No pressure signs at all, brass on their 6th reload, for at least the last 1500 rounds. I only dropped to this load to try to maybe give the barrel a little more life. By the way Laurie, you were the one who told me that Varget was a little too fast for the 6.5x47! The load has been confirmed with a Chrony, and two Magnetospeed chronographs.

Just to play devils here, have you checked your scale?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blimey! 95g load was also with Varget, the scales I use are Kern lab scales, calibrated correctly. Seriously, I used to run 39.6g of Varget no problem, now running 38.6g of the same, the rifle is a DTA with an incredibly loose firing pin (seriously loose), and I don't get any blown primers at all, just mild cratering, I guess I'm not destined to be here that long...

 

I'm going to post "still here" every Sunday at 9pm, just so you guys know I'm safe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Laurie

Thanks for your reply

How do you get "usable capacity" value in QuickLOAD?

 

Mark

 

 

QuickLOAD does it for you - it's one of the many automatic automatci calculations it does when you select the bullet, powder and charge etc as well as making any changes to the fireformed case capacity, COAL etc default values.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blaserman,

 

I love this little cartridge, and it's an immensely strong number through the combination of Lapua's case-head dimensions, care in manufacturing and the use of the small primer. A 'problem' with this is that it doesn't show heavy or over-heavy pressures up as early or obviously as similar cartridges - 6.5mm Creedmoor, .260 Rem, 308 Win etc. It almost encourages heavy loads above CIP maximum PMax levels.

 

That's fair enough apart from one possible downside - the risk of running just too close to major problems, and if you go over a 'line', it then becomes a potential 'biggie'. The good news about Varget is that it's as close to temperature insensitive as you can get as that's often what pushes a load over that line; the not so good news is that it once had a reputation for big lot to lot variations that saw 308 users with hot loads complain that there could be a 2gn difference in usable maximum loads every time they bought a new supply. I've not heard this complaint for a few years, so maybe ADI in Mulwala, Australia which makes AR2208 / H. Varget has sorted the issue. (Its owners have certainly spent a lot of money on modernising the factory in the last few years, around $20 million Australian if I remember right.)

 

The Americans now see Varget as 'the universal powder' almost and use it in anything of 308 size and smaller. I don't see the demand for it letting up any time soon. Looking for supplies (or alternatives) might well become a regular national sport on both sides of the Atlantic. Our trouble is that we're downstream of Hodgdon's supplying its home market, but so far the company seems to have played very fairly with regard to its overseas customers. Nevertheless identifying a good alternative to this and other Hodgdon powders for the 6.5X47L and other popular cartridges would seem a good idea - preferably examples that aren't well known to everybody. Such as IMR-4007SSC or the Lovex powders.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for everyone's replies, they are very much appreciated, especially Laurie's very comprehensive ones! I'm still quite happy to run with 38.6g of Varget, very accurate as well as apparently quite speedy (2807fps)! I'm not going to send a round for testing, I've shot way over a thousand of this load, no apparent defects to rifle or cases, though oddly I do have to loctite the primers in some of the cases...

post-10089-0-61273200-1390500273_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

............. though oddly I do have to loctite the primers in some of the cases...

 

:) :) I do love 'speaking' to people with a sense of humour! :) :)

 

(It reminds me too of a debate about, or description of, - I can't remember which now - superglueing bullets into 9mm long-range competition pistol ammo way back in the mists of time when the law abiding of this country could actually own and shoot these things.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy