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Starting out with F/TR class. Advice requested.


Shootist

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Greetings all.

 

OK, first and foremost, I'm on a budget. :huh:

 

I am in variation purgatory at present awaiting the acquisition of a slightly (hopefully!) used Savage .308 F/TR rifle. It has a 20 min scope rail and a bipod. I have a scope that will be sufficient for some time, at least until a better one is going to make a significant difference to my shooting.

 

So, my club range has 185 yards to warm up on, but what first when I finally get my hands on it?

 

In particular, load development. I intend getting some Lapua cases, and I have an assortment of bullets, Lapua 168 (IIRC) Sierra 155 and 168, and a few other odds and sods. Powder I have N140 and a tub of that Swiss stuff something 140 that is supposed to be similar. I want to develop two loads at least. One for long range, and one to mess around with, but still accurate, at much less range, perhaps for use on McQueen. As I said, I'm on a budget, so this rifle will have to entertain me in more than one way.

 

Then, where to go to stretch it on distance? I'm based in Derby.

 

I look forward to some advice to get me going. Thanks in advance. :)

 

 

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Greetings all.

 

OK, first and foremost, I'm on a budget. :huh:

 

I am in variation purgatory at present awaiting the acquisition of a slightly (hopefully!) used Savage .308 F/TR rifle. It has a 20 min scope rail and a bipod. I have a scope that will be sufficient for some time, at least until a better one is going to make a significant difference to my shooting.

 

So, my club range has 185 yards to warm up on, but what first when I finally get my hands on it?

 

In particular, load development. I intend getting some Lapua cases, and I have an assortment of bullets, Lapua 168 (IIRC) Sierra 155 and 168, and a few other odds and sods. Powder I have N140 and a tub of that Swiss stuff something 140 that is supposed to be similar. I want to develop two loads at least. One for long range, and one to mess around with, but still accurate, at much less range, perhaps for use on McQueen. As I said, I'm on a budget, so this rifle will have to entertain me in more than one way.

 

Then, where to go to stretch it on distance? I'm based in Derby.

 

I look forward to some advice to get me going. Thanks in advance. :)

 

 

The Savage is a great F/TR starter rifle. You are on the right track with Lapua brass but stick to the 155gn bullet - preferably the Lapua Scenar or the 155.5gn Berger. Vit N140 or the identical but cheaper TR 140 is the correct powder.

 

But, why two loads? Accurate is accurate! I shoot the same load be it at 200 or 1000 yards! There is nothing to be gained by having two loads.

 

Where to stretch it? Diggle of course - we shoot F Class once per fortnight at all ranges out to 1000 yards. See our website at www.diggleranges.com We also shoot the McQueen every month.

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Many thanks for that. The reason I mentioned two loads is that I have heard suggestions that some very accurate loads may nevertheless not perform well at shorter ranges, i.e. about 200 yards. God forbid that I should suggest anything not in accord with the glitterati herein, but that was the reason. Possibly also extending barrel life by shooting cooler loads.

 

Thanks again.

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On the two load subject, set about to try and get one load - much easier that way. However for my 308 I do have two loads, one is a short range load using n140 and 168SMK's and the other is using N150 and 175SMKs. The reason for both is that the 168gr load is below 2500fps (20" slow barrel) and drops off the end of a cliff after 400 yards or so, however it's blisteringly accurate out to 300. The 175 load is also pretty good at short range but importantly performs well out to 1000. Not ideal but that's my excuse, one load would better though.

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Second the 155 scenar! with N140 and lapua brass you should be able to push it to 2800 and just over staying supersonic further. One load does all out to 1000 yds, not only saving cost and allowing higher stock levels at home (thinking box 1000 bullets once proven) but also adding to your ability to mentally dope the wind of instinct to get that 1sst sighter close enough so you might convert the second. To keep costs down don't mess with loads to much! Diggle is the best place without question, why not stop over there?

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Keep it simple but sensible (and right!)

 

One load (155 Lapua scenars,V140,don't fiddle-that works.)

Go to Diggle (interesting wind,great advice)

 

Wind reading (errors) is far and away the biggest issue-your kit etc is fine,and does not need improving -just maybe,when your wind reading skill is top notch,you can think about an expensive upgrade....

 

Gbal

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I have heard suggestions that some very accurate loads may nevertheless not perform well at shorter ranges, i.e. about 200 yards. Possibly also extending barrel life by shooting cooler loads.

 

Thanks again.

A myth! - all the accurate 1000yd benchrest guns I've seen will still put 'em down one-hole (metaphorically speaking) at 100 yards.

 

Barrel-life? Developing a second load will use up more barrel-life than you'll save using a 'cooler' load.

 

Don't over-complicate things - the Vit140/155gn bullet is a great combination that will work out to 1000 yards. It's easy to tune and not hard on barrels. Just come to Diggle and shoot!

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A myth! - all the accurate 1000yd benchrest guns I've seen will still put 'em down one-hole (metaphorically speaking) at 100 yards.

 

Barrel-life? Developing a second load will use up more barrel-life than you'll save using a 'cooler' load.

 

Don't over-complicate things - the Vit140/155gn bullet is a great combination that will work out to 1000 yards. It's easy to tune and not hard on barrels. Just come to Diggle and shoot!

Glad to hear that 100 yd thing from you, found many a good short range load that wouldn't shoot at long range but never the reverse. Yet many claim different?

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Glad to hear that 100 yd thing from you, found many a good short range load that wouldn't shoot at long range but never the reverse. Yet many claim different?

Many are wrong! Try asking for an explanation....based on fact ..not 'bullet settles down'-just restates the assumption...

 

There are very good ballistic reasons why a short range bullet /load can't go longer ( BC poor,losses velocity,low velocity anyhow-transonic consequences,etc:a clear if extreme version is 22rf-can be outstanding at 25 y,but isn't on at all for 250 etc!!-but it applies quite generally)

NOT the reverse-a rifle will actually group pro rata better at say 100 than 1000- a moa 1000y grouping rifle will do better than moa at 100,more like 1/2 moa approx.)

Vince is validated and vindicated (by theory and his vast practical experience of accurate rifles at long/short range).

 

Gbal

 

Gbal

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Please don't think I'm arguing with those of vastly more experience, I ain't. One of this things I have seen on the net is a simulation of bullet spiral flight and it's settling down beyond a certain distance. This effect being altered by velocity, rifling twist, and bullet dimensions. I'll be damned if I can find the simulation now, but it was, I'm sure, produced by one of the reputable ammunition or barrel makers. That this spiralling effect exists seems reasonable to me, as I have most certainly observed it in air rifle pellets and even some slower gallery rifle bullets. It seemed to me that this effect might produce the phenomenon of bullets that appear more accurate at a distance than at closer range.

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On the two load subject, set about to try and get one load - much easier that way. However for my 308 I do have two loads, one is a short range load using n140 and 168SMK's and the other is using N150 and 175SMKs. The reason for both is that the 168gr load is below 2500fps (20" slow barrel) and drops off the end of a cliff after 400 yards or so, however it's blisteringly accurate out to 300. The 175 load is also pretty good at short range but importantly performs well out to 1000. Not ideal but that's my excuse, one load would better though.

I'd be interested to know what your load is for the SMK 175 as I'm shooting 1000yds next week-end and the last time I did it my load struggled at that distance.

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Well,anything Brian Litz says is worth reading.But you have to read it carefully.This is a simulation -"Playing about"- and the 25 rads is ,as he says,arbitrary,and has no known basis in any given fact.Short range is given as 200y,which is fair enough.

But there is no data-eg testing some rifle(s) at distances.The Texas studies of BR rifles in a wind free etc tunnel produced phenomenally tiny groups-perhaps bullets go to sleep very quickly in wind free ideal conditions-and note Brian's speculation that competition barrels will show much less effect,anyhow.I'm not though sure I see the connection between whippiness and yaw-dispersal yes.

What is clear is that many good BR rifles do not have a component of bullet dispersal due to yaw of the order of 1moa.They shoot groups in the .5s routinely-that's all effects-size of hole for 5 shots on 200y target.Go figure!

Easy solution of course,just shoot at ranges beyond 200,and watch your groups shrink...and excuses stabilise at zero!!

What fun.At least it wasn't on You tube,'cos that is proof.(or as we call it in science "Wobbly data".)

Gbal

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Please don't think I'm arguing with those of vastly more experience, I ain't. One of this things I have seen on the net is a simulation of bullet spiral flight and it's settling down beyond a certain distance. This effect being altered by velocity, rifling twist, and bullet dimensions. I'll be damned if I can find the simulation now, but it was, I'm sure, produced by one of the reputable ammunition or barrel makers. That this spiralling effect exists seems reasonable to me, as I have most certainly observed it in air rifle pellets and even some slower gallery rifle bullets. It seemed to me that this effect might produce the phenomenon of bullets that appear more accurate at a distance than at closer range.

Hornaday webpage I think? seen it listened to the theory, never seen it consistently proved that a gun shot a certain load better with increasing range. Still open minded but still doubtful, seen DR Who time travel but don't believe that either, man once proved the world was flat

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Hornaday webpage I think? seen it listened to the theory, never seen it consistently proved that a gun shot a certain load better with increasing range. Still open minded but still doubtful, seen DR Who time travel but don't believe that either, man once proved the world was flat

Well,he thought he had-which is very different-"It is a capital error to theorise without data",and assumptions are no substitute.Mind you-a thousand yard view from your front door is enough flat for most shooting needs!Bullets will be well gone to sleep!

I think the idea is that by 200 yards or so the bullet has settled down,and it won't shoot any better beyond that.Unfortunately the Texas tube was not long enough to see if this has any support....I'll settle for .1 groups,meanwhile-and if they are better at 1000,I'll get a March,just to admire them!! :-)

 

As if we didn't have enough to worry about...like great groups hidden in the ferns,how far from the target?

Gbal

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Shootist-

 

how long is the barrel on that Savage?

Unless it's only 26", you should be able to do a lot better than 2800fps. I'd be aiming for 2950 with 155s in a 30" without any pressure issues.

 

Chris-NZ

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Shootist-

 

how long is the barrel on that Savage?

Unless it's only 26", you should be able to do a lot better than 2800fps. I'd be aiming for 2950 with 155s in a 30" without any pressure issues.

 

Chris-NZ

30 inches. Looks like a length of scaffolding!

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