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Applying for an open FAC


njc110381

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6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

of private premises and to use it on those

premises in the presence of either the

occupier or their servant without holding a

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It

should be noted that this gives slightly more

flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than

is permissible with the use of a shot gun

as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the

borrowed rifle can also be used in the

presence of the servant of the occupier.

However, the occupier and/or their servant

must hold a firearm certificate in respect of

the firearm being used, and the borrower,

who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their

servant), must comply with the conditions

of the certificate.

 

 

I (and the BASC legal team) read that as anyone may use the rifle, as long as they're under the supervision of the land owner or tennant. The person using the gun deosn't need an FAC, but must adhere to the conditions on the certificate held by their supervisor.

 

I don't wish to argue about it, but the letter is going in with that on it. If I wasn't certain of this rule, I wouldn't be doing that would I? Firearms rules are weird. It was just the other week I was told by my FEO that I couldn't legally shoot over a footpath on one of my permissions. That "footpath" wasn't even marked on the land map as such, and is walked illegally by people who cut the corner off of the true route. I argued about it for a bit, then backed down. I will be shooting there, as long as nobody is around (as if it was a real footpath in law).

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It was just the other week I was told by my FEO that I couldn't legally shoot over a footpath on one of my permissions. That "footpath" wasn't even marked on the land map as such, and is walked illegally by people who cut the corner off of the true route. I argued about it for a bit, then backed down. I will be shooting there, as long as nobody is around (as if it was a real footpath in law).

 

No offence pard but you don't seem to be very smart. You was told be the FEO that you couldn't shoot over a footpath whether this is right or wrong is not the issue but you then come on an open forum and basically say, broccoli to what the police say I am going to shoot on said footpath when there is no one around.

I wouldn't say that is the most intelligent thing you could have said. Surely if you know the law as you say you do, so you must be right, would it not have been better to go to your local firearms dept and query it and then ask to speak to the FEO again and spend some time getting him on side.

 

I have read all your arguments but I can not possibly see that we as legal gun owners have to jump through hoops and have everything written on our tickets, and it is illegal to use someone elses rifle if it's not on our ticket but it's legal to use any rifle you like if you don't had a ticket.

 

If that is the case why do we bother having our own tickets when it would be a whole lot cheaper for one or your mates to get a ticket which we all put money into buying and then we can all put money into buying the rifles we want, we would all save a fortune :)

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Strange reply, but I can pick bits out of it that I can see your point on.

 

Firstly, If we were to all share a ticket then said mate who actually owned the guns in question would have to go out with all the others in the group every time they wanted to shoot. For £10 a year it's hardly worth the fuss is it?

 

I'm not ignoring the police, I'm ignoring an individual who is clearly wrong. If they give me rules based on laws and facts, then I will follow them to the letter. To say I can't shoot over a footpath that isn't actually a footpath is broccoli. There are two issues here in my view. 1: it's not illegal to shoot over a footpath as long as its users are not disturbed, and 2: it isn't even a footpath in the first place. My FEO is laying down rules that don't even exist!

 

I probably do say more than I should on these forums, but no rules are ever broken. The FEO who said I couldn't shoot over the said path also told me that I could shoot up out of the valley on the same permission to avoid the path. If he'd have taken the time to walk to the bottom with me he would have seen that if my shot was a couple of degrees out the only thing behind my target would be blue sky, and half a mile away is a large village. If these are the rules he wants to set, I will break them. It's me who pulls the trigger and I'm not going to risk wiping someone out with 140grns of lead for anyone, not even my FEO!

 

I like the guy, he's a top bloke, but it bugs the hell out of me that he has to check land for me. I clearly know more than he does about safety, and he's wrong on some aspects of law. I don't know what to do here. He's a really nice bloke but even to someone who's quite new to shooting rifles (me), it's clear to see that some of his ideas are not good at all. I'm not an expert on shooting, and I'm sure some of the guys on here know more than I will ever learn. If you're prepared to tell me that shooting at the sky is better than shooting over a route that walkers sometimes take, I'll be very surprised to hear it.

 

Thanks for the advice :)

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BORROWING RIFLES

“The Estate Rifle Exemption”

The British Association for Shooting and Conservation Ltd,

Marford Mill, Rossett, Wrexham LL12 0HL

Tel: 01244 573000 Fax: 01244 573013

Section 16 (1) Firearms Amendment Act 1998 allows a non certificate holder to borrow a rifle

from the occupier of private land providing the following criteria are met;

· The borrower must be aged seventeen years or older.

· The lender must be the “occupier” of private land (not the foreshore) or “a servant of the

occupier”.

· The rifle must be borrowed and only used on land occupied by the person lending the

rifle.

· The rifle must be on the lenders firearm certificate (FAC)

· The rifle must always remain in the presence of the lender (i.e. within sight and earshot)

· The borrower must comply with the conditions on the lenders’ FAC e.g. the quarry

species.

For further information see BASC’s Lamping code of practicehttp://

www.basc.org.uk/content/lampingpractice

ENQUIRIES TO: e-mail: firearms@basc.org.uk

© BASC June 2007

 

 

 

So yes it is easier if you know someone who has an FAC, and yes you can accompany them and use their rifle as long as they supervise you :)

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You guys are lucky that you can even have an open FAC, no such thing here for centrefire rifles, I have to get someone out to look at the lands everytime I get a new ground and they usually take there time. It used to be even like this for rimmies thought in the last year they have changed that.

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Footpath is only legally a footpath if included in the revision of footpaths in 1996 and on the map, if published after then.

But the landowner should put a sign up at each entry point saying "private land no public right of way" otherwise after a period of years, grandfathers rights may be claimed and the majority of hand wringing left wing councils will move heaven and earth to get it designated.

A landowner I know has through previous kindness to a few, now got two bridleways through his land despite fighting it up to minister level ( no surprise there! ).

Redfox

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As you say you are new to shooting rifles so you like the rest of us will have to wait until they see fit for you to have an open ticket. When I had my ticket I was out almost every day and night and after 2 - 3 years my local FEO asked the firearms dept to give me an open ticket as he has come out with me so many times to look over land that he was very happy that I knew what I was on about. I did have a .22lr for a good few years before I put in for my centre fire though.

 

As I said keep you FEO on side he will help you if you are prepaired to help him. You may know the law better than he does but I dought you will do yourself any favours by rubbing him up the wrong way, after all he can make your life a hard or easy as he has a mind too.

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So the outlook seems to be that although I have more safety idea than the guy doing the land (safety) checks, I will still have to have him deem ground safe before I can shoot? As I've said already I'm going to try my hardest to prove you all wrong, although deep down I know how this routine works, and you're probably right :(

 

I'm not thinking about shouting the odds with them, as thinking long term is obviously the better bet in the situation. However if the guidelines are followed how they were intended, I would be considered now. I'm still going to put my case forward, it's not going to do my long term chances any harm as long as I keep things friendly. I do stand a chance, even if it is a small one. My mentor is backing me which may or may not help (who knows, every FEO is different which doesn't help!). I feel that a time limit is a very poor and unprofessional way of judging experience, you've probably noticed that :)

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So you are saying a time limit is not right, so if that is the case what makes you think that you are so qualified after such a short space of time?

 

I had been shooting for 20 years before I put in for my centre fire and I have been shooting one now for a few years and I am still learning. I am sure you have heard / been told that a rimfire will ricochet and a centre fire with ballistic tips won't, well let me tell you they do, it happened to me just last year while out with Varminter and a 50g V-Max ricocheted off of wet grass at 200 yds, I would never have believed it until I saw it myself.

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I'm not trying to say I'm the god of shooting, because I'm not. What I mean is that I know a safe shot. I've heard all the talk that some rounds ricochet more than others and agree that .22lr is a bouncy round. They don't have enough speed to break up the bullet, and it's not designed to break, so they will bounce. A centrefire round does have the speed and design (assuming it's that kind of bullet), and is more likely to smash itself up on impact. Does that mean you don't need a backstop? Not in my view. You're talking about the likelyhood af a ricochet, which is different to possibility of one. All shots require some form of backstop whether formed by a natural bank or a high seat, end of story.

 

I've shot a lot. Maybe not as much as some of you but look at it like this: I've been out with some really experienced shots who have been shooting ground that wasn't cleared for the calibre being used. Because they know what they are doing they will take a shot. It may be that the target must be in an area no more than say 10 feet square, and the shooting position is set to one point, but that shot is safe if taken in that manner. I've watched this and learned from it in a number of areas. Even when walking without a gun on land we don't shoot, a target is often pointed at and the suitability of a shot is discussed. That gives a good overall view of a huge number of situations without even needing the gun!

 

I watched a deer walk past me in devon which would have been my first. It was in my sights ready to be taken but I could see sky line just above the top of its shoulder. The shot was questionable so I left it, even in the excitement of the first chance of a kill. I think about everything I do and know what to look for, even though I haven't actually had my own guns for very long. Nothing matters more than safety. I will never take an unsafe shot, and that's a fact. It's a shame proving it is so hard!

 

Another way of looking at it is (just as an example) I could have been shooting the same three permissions for ten years. Each one has a number of nice safe backstops and nothing behind them. Maybe a footpath or farm building is in the distance, but I've had them pointed out to me by the FEO when he visited so I'll avoid them. When I send in for my renewal with another permission form, my ticket comes back open. I get to the new ground on my own, but my only understanding of safety is the limited number of situations I've been in so far. I would be a far greater risk of making a mistake like this than I am at my present level of knowledge, yet the chances of it happening are almost certain because I'd have been shooting for ten years and an open ticked needn't even be mentioned to be granted.

 

Do you see my point? Time isn't everything. In fact, it means nothing!

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Ok guy's, let clear something up, first of all we have a new member to the site, and on reading some of the replies i would not stay here :lol:

 

Now we have all had different experiences while getting our FAC's as not every force adhere to the rules set out in BLACK & WHITE, they try to make up there own interpretation to the LAW.

 

Gwent police are a nightmare to deal with, but as long as you know the law had have the FACTS and nothing but the FACTS, they have to act in accordance to the LAW.

For instance, i put down for a Moderator for the .222 & .270, they said i could not have it for the .270?? No reason behind it apart from "There's no need to have one on your .270 as they don't work on large calibre rifles" :mellow::blink:

I didn't press the issue, moved to Scotland sent my ticket off to Lothian & Borders police, and guess what it came back stating that " The Centre fire moderator will be used in conjunction the which ever rifle it is fitted", now that is pure common sense, and i never had a problem while living in Scotland with regards to my FAC.

 

Now i'm back in Wales and guess what, here we go again, but i have the FACTS and they must act on them, they are not happy about it but hey i worked bloody hard to get my FAC, and i will do whatever i need to, to ensure i keep it, and ensure they adhere to the LAW as well as myself.

 

Some of us have been lucky and have had an open ticket granted in no time at all, while other's have been made to jump through hoops to get what they should have anyhow.

I have been lucky but i have over 30 years shooting experience, and this where time comes into it, while i do not claim to have a vast knowledge i know what i know, this is a Hobby that runs very deep through my blood, and i gather all the info i can, good and bad.

 

I hope it works out for you, and i know what problems you have had in getting your FAC, but keep your cool, gather all the info and make sure you leave no stone unturned to get what you should have.

 

I shoot on the same ground as my mate who has a conditioned ticket, and he's not allowed to shoot on some field's, but i can if i deem it to be a 110% safe shot, and if it's not i leave it, and on numerous time's i have had comments like "go on it's OK, nail it" only to put the rifle back on my shoulder.

ONCE YOU SQUEEZE THAT TRIGGER THAT BULLET WILL NOT COME BACK, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WISH IT WOULD, and that's what it is all about, being a safe shot, knowing when to shoot and when to leave it for another day.

 

SO PLEASE LETS ALL WISH NJC ALL THE BEST AND KEEP US UPDATED WITH YOUR PROGRESS

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A more realistic reply there from Kip, cheers buddy :blink:

 

It's unbelievable what the firearms officers come out with at times. They try to make the rules up as they go along, I think manly because they know 99% of shooters are brown nosing them and will accept what's said to stay in their good books. I'm not saying that we should all challenge everything we disagree with, that would be daft. It isn't unreasonable to push them a little though, especially if you know 100% that they're talking shite and should know better. They're there to provide a service whilst following the rules set out by the home office. Adjusting of those rules to suit themselves should not be tollerated, and it doesn't have to be!

 

Kip, I'd say invite your FEO to a range. Give him someones .270 with a mod on to try (no ear plugs), then get him to do the same with yours (no mod or ear plugs). When his ears have stopped ringing, maybe he'll admit he's wrong :mellow:

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I think the general advise given is give it a little while longer, when someone is acting as your mentor it is supposed to be them following you seeing how you act with a gun and seeing what shots you would or wouldndt take

 

its never a question of teaching you what you allready know but making sure you know what you are supposed to know

 

look at it like doing NVQ's for engineering

 

1st apprentiship

2nd is a basic NVQ

3rd is level 1&2 where you continue to do college

 

BUT 4th is NVQ3 where its your job as a fully experienced and timed served individual to compile a massive amount of evidence to show a bunch of paper pushers that you know everything you need to know to be able to explain (as an experienced guy/girl) in a manner that they could learn and understand the what and how to of a engineering jobs you have been asked to undertake

 

so what I am trying to explain is that you may be vastly more experienced than some who have been wrongly granted open tickets and yet you may proberbly as you have admitted not be as experienced as many others on here

 

please try to understand that they are not trying to be big headed or awkward about it but they and myself have been in your situation, hated it coz we are obviously way more experienced than the FEO (so we know how you feel) but are experienced enough and come far enough down the road now that YES the policeman may be wrong but YES there is a good reason why this system should be in place

 

when you have had your ticket opened for a short while and left to your own you will then look back and realise as we have that the rules are set up for a reason and you will agree with us when you see a guy who is relatively new to the game asking bla bla bla

 

you may not realise that there are firearms liason commitee's that run along side the police, they consist of very experienced centre fire users/ rfd's etc etc and they come up with recomendations to the police and the restrictions regarding being acompanied etc etc come from these experienced commitee's not the firearms departments

 

most of the firearms licensing departments are made up of non shooting people so they rely on these comittee's for their experience on matters of safety, guidelines, restictions etc etc

 

people on here would love to help you in any way they can and they are a great bunch of guys its just unfortunate that your post hit a raw nerve and this topic is a bit of a saw one but in a year or two you will look back and see why its a saw subject

 

just go with the flow mo jo and chill :) I am sure your a great guy and your just on a stick about this one as we all have been in the past

 

welcome to the site

 

 

ps not in a spelling mood so sorry for the spelling

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There's every chance I'm going to have to post my answer on here, in fact I will. I'm really dreading it, I get the feeling it may be the source of a great deal of p*** taking :)

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hi there njc

a little story for you i mean in now way to insult you or offend you but in your post you said Time isn't everything. In fact, it means nothing!

i have been shooting since i was 6 years old and have now been shooting for 22 years 4 of which were spent in the infantry under range and combat conditions when posted to bosnia we were working with some forigen forces and had a young lad in our troop from france he did not come home mate

he flustered with his drills when his rifle jammed and could not get a round of in time and was hit i bet my last pound he now wishes he spent the time learning.

 

the point im trying to make here mate is that there is no rush take the time to learn everything you can listen to all the good and all the bad comments you will get in your shooting life and belive me you will get both but that is why we have the rules and laws so we are able to lurn

i shoot every day and i know there is still a whole world of knowlage out there for me to lurn and thats part of the shooting lifestyle i wish you all the best in your quest to get an open ticket but if you dont then dont worry just keep sending in the land forms that is what your feo is paid for to come and see your land ect

of all the poeple on this forum only one person knows how good you are and what sort of talent you have with a rifle and that person is you so before you lose a round of all you have to think of is where will it go and how will it stop if you can come up with the right answer everytime then you know you are truely ready to take a shot mate

all the best :)

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There's every chance I'm going to have to post my answer on here, in fact I will. I'm really dreading it, I get the feeling it may be the source of a great deal of p*** taking :)

 

Us take the p*** :):D:lol:

 

Only if we like you :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

We've all been there ;)

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Whatever happens, I will get my certificate back with the mentoring condition removed. Things will be ok, even with the worst possible outcome. I've kept my mentor for longer than I had to (I was told that when my land was cleared I could send in the cert for the mentor to be removed from the .22 and .17, but I didn't). This is mainly due to the fact that I really get on well with my mentor, and shooting isn't the same on your own! When he's off my ticket, I will still be shooting with him more than I will on my own. When he's gone, Im limited to shooting cleared land unless I get open. It will be a step backwards as my ticket is open now, but I must be accompanied!

 

I really like the reply from reloaderdan. I can relate to it very well. It is true that only I know my skill level (although my mentor has a good idea too!). I'm confident I'm safe. Shooting is my life so I put a lot of time into it.

 

My ultimate long term goal is to help new shooters into the sport. I'd love to be able to get hold of a newbie and give them their first shot in the field with a real rifle. I remember very well how I felt when I got to know my mentor. I had little idea of how things were done, but in a very short time I learned a lot. I had some of my first shots with a rifle (Sako TRG .308) and pushed for my own ticket. He helped me get my 6.5x55 on ticket, because I really liked his.

 

The memory of that first shot will always be with me, and if I can pass it on one day I will be very happy.

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Tell you what Neil, if you are refused the open get those land checks in and accompany the feo when he comes out, wish for rain and make him walk the boarders of every field / wood/ whatever :D:) , not that I've got anything against coppers mind :) , just like to get good value for money :lol:

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Tell you what Neil, if you are refused the open get those land checks in and accompany the feo when he comes out, wish for rain and make him walk the boarders of every field / wood/ whatever :lol::) , not that I've got anything against coppers mind :) , just like to get good value for money :lol:

 

That's what I did last time. It was lashing down and he said my flat permission was ok for the 6.5 after only seeing the field next to the motorway. I said I wanted to be sure and hiked him and his two trainees across 3 fields so he could see my planned shooting position! That to me makes two things clear: I'm not going to compromise safety by being lazy, and I like to have a good knowledge of my ground before shooting. He will also remember that land checks with me involve a good long walk in the mud (the muddiest way I know is the route I take). It's up to his boss how muddy he gets. I've got nice tall boots, all the time in the world, and I'm not scared of getting filthy to get what I want :D

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A more realistic reply there from Kip, cheers buddy :lol:

 

It's unbelievable what the firearms officers come out with at times. They try to make the rules up as they go along, I think manly because they know 99% of shooters are brown nosing them and will accept what's said to stay in their good books. I'm not saying that we should all challenge everything we disagree with, that would be daft. It isn't unreasonable to push them a little though, especially if you know 100% that they're talking shite and should know better. They're there to provide a service whilst following the rules set out by the home office. Adjusting of those rules to suit themselves should not be tolerated, and it doesn't have to be!

 

Kip, I'd say invite your FEO to a range. Give him someones .270 with a mod on to try (no ear plugs), then get him to do the same with yours (no mod or ear plugs). When his ears have stopped ringing, maybe he'll admit he's wrong :D

 

We have all had these restrictions at one time or another, when I first got my ticket for a c/f it stated that I was only to shoot foxes on a firing range :):) I questioned it and I was told there was a mistake and to send it back which I did, then there was something else added instead, but instead of going off on one I made another call and I was told it's in the home office guide lines, so I got hold of David Breeden from the Countryside Alliance, he was a member of the team that put the guide lines together. I got it all sorted eventually but I still had a closed ticket. That wasn't a problem to me as I was happy to be able to go and get land and get the police to come and check it. I was having so much land past, so often that after 2 yrs my feo asked the firearms dept to give me an open ticket as he was satisfied I was very competent :lol: Ha! who am I to argue with him :lol:

 

It doesn't matter how long you have been shooting of how much you think you know the land and all about safety, my father had an air rifle as a boy, he grew up in the countryside and one day he and his 2 cousins were out on ground that they had shot for years and they were shooting at a target in the hedge, then one of the pellets came back and took my fathers eye out :lol:

 

that which promotes growth and vigour happens to the most experienced of us, and the guide lines are just that GUIDE LINES not rules so the individual force can interpret them how they like, not how we would like. Just enjoy your shooting get out and knock on some doors and get some new land and show them that you are willing to do what ever it takes so they can see you no longer need this restriction.

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