26" barrel out to 1000y in a 308

[Hally]

Hi all I'm after some advice I shoot Fclass when I can and at the moment i am using a DTA in 6.5x47 LAP.I have ordered a new barrel from the importer but the factory barrels are a 26" Walter with a 1in 11 twist.If I wait six months l can have a custom 30" made but not to shore if l am keen on waitting that long.Now the help I'm looking for will a 26" barrel keep a 155gr pill supersonic out to 1000y and is a 1in 11 wrist rate ok for 155gr pills.Thanks

[Hatzi]

Its just about possible but i suggest reading Laurie's comprehensive treatise on the matter of optimum bullet selection as certain models will certainly survive the transonic zone far better even though poorer initial ballistics might see them dropping into that speed range sooner.

 

www.targetshooter.co.uk

[oaken]

 

Edit. You need 2950+ to stay faster than transonic at 1k with 155gr

[palo]

My 26in 1/11 twist 308 shoots 155 grain bullets very well.

My current load is doing 2860 but I can push them to 2900.

I dont shoot at 1000 yards though.

If most of your shooting is at 1000 yards it might be better to wait for the 30in tube.

[manitou210]

You will be out-guned at 900m against the 30" tubes

[Laurie]

1-11" is a good choice letting you shoot 155s up to the 208/210gn VLDs from Berger, Hornady, JLK, and Sierra. It won't shoot the 215/230gn Berger Hybrids which need 1-10".

 

Twist isn't everything though as it also depends on what chamber the manufacturer gives you, both in terms of neck clearance and more crucially, freebore. The freebore may limit your bullet options to lighter models than the twist rate will handle. Most F/TR shooters with gunsmith chambered and fitted barrels now run with 'minimum SAAMI' chambers that reduce neck clearances considerably over tactical and factory rifles, giving near ideal dimensions for unturned Lapua brass, or with a clean-up skim only.

 

Length-wise, Manitou is correct. 26" will shoot happily to 1,000 - but only with careful bullet selection as there are many models that struggle to stay supersponic at this distance with 26" MVs, and have no chance of staying out of the transonic zone (1.2 - 0.83 MACH). BUT .... you still lose around 100 fps MV over an equivalent (in terms of internal dimensions / chamber configuration) 30-incher and .223 / 308 are both marginal cartridges for 1,000 yard precision shooting which is what F/TR is. They do need everything optimised to give their best against the competition - and there's plenty of very good competition out there these days even in club shoots. So, it's really down to how much 1,000 you're likely to do. If occasional, stick with the 26 inch tube, if regular, wait on the 30. Even 900 needs a lot less ballistic performance, so it's abosolutely down to the importance of 1,000 yard competitiveness.

 

If you take the Berger 185gn LRBT 'Juggernaut' which will likely be a near optimal bullet for your rifle, 30-inch barrel F/TR rifles generally get good results with it somewhere between 2,750 fps and 2,825 fps MVs. The transonic zone starts around 1.2 MACH under standard ballistic conditions which is 1,346 fps so the objective is to be running at that speed or better at the target, ideally at 1,400 fps or above. Here's how things look for the 'Juggernaut' with a range of MVs to terminal speeds:

 

2,650 - 1,288

2,700 - 1,322

2,750 - 1,357

2,800 - 1,392

 

As far out as 900 yards this bullet betters (just) 1,400 fps retained velocity even with the lowest of the above MVs, 2,650 fps - so you can see why 1,000 becomes critical ballistically and the last 50 or 100 fps MV can give large dividends. Once transonic, BC values become far less reliable as drag can increase substantially, often in a form that also causes unpredicatble turbulence in the bullet's flight and behaviour. The result can be a fairly small wind change having a disproportionate effect on bullet movement and good elevation consistency up to 900 yards seeing a sudden deterioration with the extra 100 yards to 1,000. (Been there, got all these T shirts!). The problem for the shooter is that some bullets behave better than others in this environment, but there are no BC like indicators to tell you which do and which don't, other than people trying things and finding out what works the hard way. (Many Match Rifle shooters long used the relatively low BC 190gn Sierra MK in their discipline out to 1,200 yards because it gained a reputation for very good manners at both trans and sub sonic flight speeds.)

 

There is another approach that Bryan Litz / Berger Bullets are adopting for this problem - the OTM Tactical models that are geared to 1-11.25 twist rate barrels and ~2,600 fps MVs for the 175gn 0.308" model. At the rotational speed that gives the bullet, it is designed to remain stable right out to 1,000 despite travelling right through the upper transonic zone speed band almost to the speed of sound. Bryan Litz claims MOA groups at 1,000 in range tests with a semi-auto 20-inch barrel 308, and that's what these bullets are designed for - US M24 and M110 sniper / sharpshooter type milspec rifles where the US Army has for some reason or other decided the 1-11.25" twist rate is optimal for long-range shooting with 20-26 inch barrel rifles.

[Hally]

First let me thank all of you that have given me help and advice.And second a big thanks to Laurie that is the fantastic reply.Right there is why forums like this were set up so when a plonker like me seeks help experts like Laurie take the time to help.Thanks to all.We don't shoot out to 1000y a lot but most of the time 400y to 900y but it would be good to be able to stay on target at a 1000y when we do.As l have shot my AI AE MK ll with a 24" out to a 1000y and have experienced what Laurie was talking about in big difference between 900y to 1000y going from a good score to scratching my head in wonder.So was hoping that the extra 2" in length may get me there.I might just have to stay in F class open a little longer shooting my 6.5x47 and have the custom 30" made its just the six months is a little dit of a drag.Thanks from OZ

[Canadian F-Class Guy]

I am blessed with more than a mile of open territory between my property and that of a neighbour and i enjoy the luxury of being able to shoot and experiment virtually out the back door. A number of years ago I purchased a Tikka Tactical rifle in 308. It was an 11 twist rifle and had a 24" barrel. I had absolutely no problems whatsoever with being able to hit a 24" steel sawblade gong at 1000M using 178 grain Amax bullets atop Hodgdon BLC2 powder. That was with a starting velocity of 2750. I needed roughly 35 minutes of elevation, but that was not an issue with the scope. If I could handily shoot to 1000 meters using a 24" barrel, you will have no issues with a 26"

[gbal]

Sounds like good fun!

But the last time I didn't win a 1000 yard competition,even factory rifles were shooting under a minute of angle,and the smithed ones half that.Not everyone needs that of course,if you have a bigger gong,but if you do need it,Laurie's approach and advice become critical,though of course,the specific rifle remains important,even if they all have the optimum twists etc.They are not all equal from the (tikka) factory !

george

[Laurie]

Re Canadian F-Class Guy's post, 2,750 fps with a 178gn bullet is a mighty fine figure for 24-inches especially if it gives small groups at that load. I started F/TR with a 24-inch barrel factory rifle that was ideal for the then new F/TR according to received wisdom. It wasn't! I could get sub 0.5-MOA groups at under 2,600 fps with 175s, or I could (just) get 2,700 fps and 1 to 1.25-MOA groups.

 

A key benefit of choosing a good quality, suitably profiled and well-chambered 30-incher is not just the ultimate potential MV, but more crucially the considerably sized window of suitably high MVs allied to suitably high precision. A shorter barrel, certainly under 28-inches reduces the chances of getting such a combination.

 

Incidentally, I see regular references to the 308 178gn A-Max in this role. I've nothing against A-Maxes - quite the reverse as I have 500 30s on order right now for the Howa 1500 'affordable F/TR rifle' I'm working up for club shoots, but the 155, 168 and 178gn models have a lot of deficiencies as long-range designs. The 208gn A-Max is a different kettle of fish and one of the best bullets on offer in the over 200gn category. The three lighter models have relatively short blunt nose sections, low BCs, and - their major problem - short very steeply angled boat-tails. The ideal boat-tail angle for a long-range bullet lies in the 7-9-deg range, these three A-Maxes are all 12 to 13 something. A boat-tail doesn't do its job (reducing tail-drag) if it's over steeply angled and this becomes a major creator of extra drag and turbulence especially in transonic speed flight. The 178 Amax's average long-range G7 BC is barely above that of the 155.5gn Berger BT Fullbore and below that of the new 155gn Berger Hybrid according to Bryan Litz's range-testing. An excellent (and cheaper) choice for 200-600 yard competitions, 800yd at a pinch, but not my first choice for long-range shooting.

[Hally]

Thanks I found that my 24" in my AI AE had difficulty at 1000y a little wind and I went from a 6 to a 4 verry fast.But at 900y not so.So what Laurie is saying rings true to me.Out of interest Laurie what advantage would say 32" or 33" have l know that nerly all Fclass boys have a 30" but just wondering ????.Would a 155gr out of say a 33" have a noticeable advantage over a 30".I could run a 33" out of my DTA and still be the same length as rifle with a 26" ( don't know if it would be legal in Fclass) but i was wondering .Thanks

[Dark Star]

Laurie is spot on with his advice (as usual!).

 

I spent quite a lot of time and effort trying to get a 26" barrel to shoot well out at all distances and out to 1200yds and in the end I settled on the Berger 175 TOTM bullets. They're supposed to handle the transition between supersonic and subsonic better than other bullet designs and my experience seems to confirm that.

 

Also, they don't mind a big jump, so if you need to load them so they'll feed from a magazine, they still work really well.

[Canadian F-Class Guy]

I don't shoot anything 30 calibre anymore, but at the time, excellent bullets such as the Berger 185 or 155.5 weren't on the market, but that Tikka loved the Amax bullets, and to be honest it was mostly a question of what I could locate more than anything that led to me using them. I have more fun doing more with less... that is to say I have great fun with using a 6BR out to a mile (28 and 30" barrels with Berger 105 Hybrid bullets). The Swiss Match does this handily too, but I assure you my Tikka adventures are real

[gbal]

I don't shoot anything 30 calibre anymore, but at the time, excellent bullets such as the Berger 185 or 155.5 weren't on the market, but that Tikka loved the Amax bullets, and to be honest it was mostly a question of what I could locate more than anything that led to me using them. I have more fun doing more with less... that is to say I have great fun with using a 6BR out to a mile (28 and 30" barrels with Berger 105 Hybrid bullets). The Swiss Match does this handily too, but I assure you my Tikka adventures are real

Wow!6BR at a mile,impressed-even if barn doors are bigger in Canada.But of course local bullets from Kamloops will have the world's biggest BC,as of birthright!

george

[Laurie]

Out of interest Laurie what advantage would say 32" or 33" have l know that nerly all Fclass boys have a 30" but just wondering ???? [Hally]

 

Four issues:

 

1. Will the result fit my cabinet? I kid you not - a real issue that people consider. I have a 32" Savage based rifle that JUST fits after I remove the buttplate assembly from its modular (Dolphin) stock. It's a PITA even so.

 

2. MV benefits fall off after 28-30 inches, so it's not as if you get another 100 fps out of it, not from 155s anyway but maybe from 185-230s.

 

3. The all-up weight ceiling. If you go beyond 30, do you have to choose a lighter profile barrel to stay within weight, or scrimp elsewhere? Each extra inch of a heavy profile barrel adds around 3.5 ounces so that's 10 or more ounces for a 33.

 

4. I have seen people go out to 33 and 34 inches and it usually didn't work out too well and they ended up having them cropped. These barrels seemed to be very finicky and made for difficulty in tuning loads for small groups. It's noticeable that even the F-Class guys don't generally go for super-long tubes and they have the weight ceiling latitude to choose very heavy stiff actions, heavier / stiffer stocks and are much better supported up front through a solid front-rest than the F/TR people with bi-pods. Maybe a balance / rifle handling issue? Maybe the finicky load tuning problem arises when you ask the action to support too long a barrel? I don't know - any thoughts / reflections Ronin, Desparrado, Elwood and other Open Class Effers? (Vince Bottomley built a barrel-clamp stocked 284 Win for Seb Lambang to use in last November's F-Class European Championships. This may be the way to go with very heavy and long barrels, as the stock is supporting the barrel not the action. It's what some of the American Heavy Gun long-range bench rest shooters do.)

 

The norm now in the GB F-Class league scene is a good but light action (eg Barnard S rather than P) and get as much weight into a 30" barrel as you can without having to give up too much elsewhere within the weight ceiling. Very heavy profile tubes with fluting have become popular as a result.

 

 

Would a 155gr out of say a 33" have a noticeable advantage over a 30".

 

Most people who tried long barrels intended to use heavies rather than 155s. An extra 100 fps with a 210-230 is more valuable than pushing a 155 beyond 3,100 fps. There is the HME issue too - the risk of breaching the UK MoD ceiling is much greater with light bullets than heavies - the opposite of what most people believe, but as MV is squared in ME calculations, increasing bullet speed has a greater effect than increasing weight.

 

 

 

I spent quite a lot of time and effort trying to get a 26" barrel to shoot well out at all distances and out to 1200yds and in the end I settled on the Berger 175 TOTM bullets. They're supposed to handle the transition between supersonic and subsonic better than other bullet designs and my experience seems to confirm that. [Dark Star]

 

 

That's interesting and encouraging. I'm playing with various 'affordable F/TR rifles' including a lightly improved Howa 1500 Varminter I bought through this forum from TT. Great little rifle though it is, its 22-inch barrel is very limiting on velocities. Not a huge problem for 200-600 yard club matches with a range of 155s to 175s at modest speeds (it doesn't like heavies!), but I fancied the concept of using the 175gn Berger OTM Tactical at longer ranges and seeing if it really overcomes the transonic speed issue. I worked out bullet rotation in the 1-11.25" twist rate at around 2,600 fps it's designed for to get the equivalent MV in the Howa's 1-12" barrel to spin the bullets at the same rate and it's 2,700 something. I eventually found a safe load using IMR-4895 (must be IMR, Hodgdon H4895 won't achieve these speeds without serious over-pressures) and that grouped well at 100. I'm still waiting to try it at 800 or 900 yards, but will get some short range matches in first with other (cheaper) bullets and budget Czech Lovex SO62 and Swiss TR140 powders beforehand.

 

 

 

............ but I assure you my Tikka adventures are real [Canadian F Class Guy]

 

I don't think anybody disbelieves you. Most of us fondly remember at least one wonderful outing when conditions were good and it all seemed to come together and just fall right. The trouble comes with formal matches when YOU don't get to choose the day, the weather, the range set-up, your postion on the firing line and whether the key wind flag is visible, even when you shoot - it's your turn and you + the rifle + the ammo have to perform with the hand the competition organiser has dealt you, and if you're shooting in a league or even a well supported club championship series like PSSA's F-Class and F/TR at Diggle in northern England, you have to do it consistently too. With 223 and 308 being marginal very long-range precision cartridges, you've got to get everything within the right set of performance parameters to achieve consistent good results. With Diggle running nearly 30 in-house F matches each year (best 8 results to count) from 200 to 1,000 yards, a common question for the national league shooters like myself is "I'm doing OK up to 600, but what do I have to do to make it worthwhile entering the 800/900/1,000 yard matches?"

[Dark Star]

That's interesting and encouraging. I'm playing with various 'affordable F/TR rifles' including a lightly improved Howa 1500 Varminter I bought through this forum from TT. Great little rifle though it is, its 22-inch barrel is very limiting on velocities. Not a huge problem for 200-600 yard club matches with a range of 155s to 175s at modest speeds (it doesn't like heavies!), but I fancied the concept of using the 175gn Berger OTM Tactical at longer ranges and seeing if it really overcomes the transonic speed issue. I worked out bullet rotation in the 1-11.25" twist rate at around 2,600 fps it's designed for to get the equivalent MV in the Howa's 1-12" barrel to spin the bullets at the same rate and it's 2,700 something. I eventually found a safe load using IMR-4895 (must be IMR, Hodgdon H4895 won't achieve these speeds without serious over-pressures) and that grouped well at 100. I'm still waiting to try it at 800 or 900 yards, but will get some short range matches in first with other (cheaper) bullets and budget Czech Lovex SO62 and Swiss TR140 powders beforehand.

 

This was a standard Remington barrel, which is 1:11 from memory. I can get 2650fps relatively easily with the 175 TOTM and the groups were around 1 minute at 1200yds, which I was pretty pleased with considering it's stretching the capabilities of that barrel IMO. That was using H4895, but I wasn't trying for maximum velocity, so pressures were fine.

[Laurie]

This was a standard Remington barrel, which is 1:11 from memory. I can get 2650fps relatively easily with the 175 TOTM and the groups were around 1 minute at 1200yds, which I was pretty pleased with considering it's stretching the capabilities of that barrel IMO. That was using H4895, but I wasn't trying for maximum velocity, so pressures were fine.

 

 

Yes you're right in Bryan Litz's (the bullet designer's) envelope at that. I think this is the first feedback I've seen on these bullets other than Bryan L's own claims about what he achieved at 1K in range tests with a LaRue 20-inch semi-auto firing the rifle as such, not single-feeding rounds. It makes you wonder if these bullets have caught on with the 'tactical crowd' - or if they're regarded as too expensive for any distances shorter than 1K. Obviously, Bryan and Berger Bullets are targeting these bullets (and Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistics semi-custom .308W tactical / target ammo loaded with them) at the specialist (eg elite FBI Hostage Recue Teams) law-enforcement community and likewise elite military special forces.

 

They've got an excellent BC too for tangent ogive bullets that are designed to be loaded to 2.800" COAL for magazine operation, at 0.259 G7 average. That compares against 0.243 for the benchmark bullet in this category, Sierra's 175gn MK as loaded in the US military M118LR sniper round at a nominal 2,700 fps or so from the M24, rather less from M14/21 semi-autos. Other bullets in this category are Berger's match 175gn LR BT at 0.264, the 178gn A-Max at 0.240. It's way above the traditional (Sierra, Hornady, Speer, Nosler) 168gn HPBTs and not too far off Berger's out and out long-range match 168s' performance, the 168 VLD at 0.242 and Hybrid (my favourite 308 F/TR bullet right now) with 0.266.

 

If you take these bullets at a range of MVs and distances you get:

 

 

2,600 fps MV ..... SMK: 900-1,204/9.1; 1K-1,092/10.7 .... TOTM: 900-1,275/8.3; 1K-1,179/9.4 ..... A-Max: 900-1190/9.3; 1K-1,082/10.9

 

2,700 fps MV ..... SMK: 900-1,272/8.5; 1K-1,148/10.0 .... TOTM: 900-1,345/7.8; 1K-1,233/9.1 ..... A-Max: 900-1,257/8.7; 1K-1,133/10.2

 

2,750 fps MV ..... SMK: 900-1,306/8.3; 1K-1,179/9.7 ...... TOTM: 900-1,380/7.6; 1K-1,256/8.8 ...... A-Max: 900-1,291/8.4; 1K-1,164/9.9

 

2,800 fps MV ..... SMK: 900-1,340/8.0; 1K-1,211/9.4 ...... TOTM: 900-1,415/7.3; 1K-1,290/8.5 ...... A-Max: 900-1,325/8.2; 1K-1,195/9.6

 

(Figures are retained velocities / wind drift in MOA in a 10 mph 90-deg X-wind at 900 and 1,000 yards)

 

BUT ...... these figures assume none of the trio sees its performance deteriorate while in transonic flight. The 178gn A-Max is transonic from somewhere short of 800 yards at 2,600 fps for instance, the others are ~1,400 fps minimum at this distance at all speeds. The Berger TOTM avoids transonic flight until beyond 900 yards at 2,700 fps and higher MVs.

 

IF .......... the 175gn Berger TOTM does exactly what it says on the tin, remains stable from 1,350 fps or so down to below the speed of sound, and the other two suffer in some or all conditions at these speeds, the Berger's calculated figures remain reasonably or even entirely trustworthy, but the others .... ???

 

 

Incidentally, another thought struck me while musing on getting 24 and 26-inch barrels to perform at longer ranges - IMR-8208 XBR + 155s. This powder really does give 155s a velocity boost in the cartridge. I got some almost frightening speeds with the 155gn Aussie HBC out of the Howa 1500's 22-inch barrel apparently without excess pressures, and with reasonable (in fact good) groups. I still find the results so surprising / unlikely I'll run the tests again later this year when things warm up ... and I've now got a chronograph I trust even in Diggle's constantly varying light conditions to retest the velocities (a MagnetoSpeed that doesn't use light, the bullet speed measured by breaking magnetic fields).

 

American F/TR shooters are quoting spectacular results with 8208 from both factory and custom F/TR rifles and 155s. Some say you can use it with heavier bullets too - up to 185 - but it's a very fast burner for this cartridge and I suspect it's best restricted to 155gn numbers.

[Hally]

Thanks for your reply Laurie it was just a passing thought getting something over 30".If l could get the end of my barrel even 3" closer to the target it's got to help with my skill level he he.Your thoughts on the 155gr being driven to fast please the magic number that l keep hearing is 2950 fps.Is it a case of diminishing returns once you get over that there is no real advantage.Thanks

[Laurie]

Your thoughts on the 155gr being driven to fast please the magic number that l keep hearing is 2950 fps.Is it a case of diminishing returns once you get over that there is no real advantage.Thanks

 

 

2,950 fps and 155 makes the 'magic combination' - well it did, maybe still does, if you're a Target Rifle / Palma Rifle competitor and shooting the original 155gn Sierra Palma MK, #2155. It's still a good starting point for both TR and F/TR, but MVs and bullet efficiency have moved on a bit for handloaders at any rate. The NRA of GB procured RUAG (RWS) TR ammo is still geared to this old, tried and trusted formula and even uses the original Palma MK #2155. It's loaded to produce somewhere in the 2,950-3,000 band providing your barrel is 30-32" long, made on the 'tight side', somewhere around 0.298/0.3075" land/groove diameter, and has the Bisley 150 or Palma 95 chamber.

 

As an indicator of bullet design progress in the last five years or so, the original Palma has an average G7 BC of 0.214. the Berger 155.5 BT 0.237, and the 155 Berger Hybrid 0.247. That's a 15% BC improvement in just a few years. F Open is no different of course - the 7mm 180gn VLDs they shoot are a step-change above the 139-142gn 6.5mm bullets they were using in 6.5-284 four or five years back.

 

The handloading long-range F/TR competitor is more likely to load a higher BC bullet even if he/she sticks to 155 which maybe around half the field do and is looking for MVs on the far side of 3,000 fps. How far depends on a number of factors including just how short a barrel accurcacy life the competitor is willing to accept. We're into the 3,000 - 3,100 fps range using the favoured 155.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, but that often requires double-base powders such as Viht N540, although VarGet or H4895 can get you almost as fast in some barrels. The one certain thing is that F/TR shooters don't get the 5,000-7,000 round barrel life of TR shooters, partly because of the much enhanced wear from their loads, but just as much as from shooting at a target whose rings run at a mere 25% of the area of those used by TR/Palma/Match Rifle competitors.

 

What I'm looking for in my 1,000 yard comp ammo is really tight groups (0.3-MOA or less for five shot strings), ~3,050 fps MV with an extreme spread in the teens, preferably the low teens, and a single figure SD value, all this from a single-base powder with a reputation for temperature stability. For shorter range club comps, I'll likely use Viht N150 and run at 2,925-2,950 fps. These are all with 155s of course, but I've been known to try anything that looks efficient between 168gn and 210gn, the 185gn Berger LRBT being my favourite for a couple of seasons. The guys shooting the really high BC heavies, (one in particular who's adopted the new 230gn Berger Hybrid at some substantial pressures and velocities) generally use small primer Lapua 'Palma' brass and Viht N550 or Alliant Re17. They have a distinct advantage in changeable wiind conditions but the indications are these bullets don't shoot as tight groups as 155-185s. And, of course, they generate more recoil and torque making a bi-pod supported rifle's handling more difficult. Over the course of a UK GB League season shot on three ranges - Bisley, Diggle and Blair Atholl - with 1,000yd the primary distance in terms of shots fired, the indications are that the benefits and disbenefits of light / medium weight / heavy bullets average out assuming equipment and shooters are equally capable. So, it comes down to shooter preferences and what suits your particular style, wind estimations and suchlike.

 

There are one or two guys over here using the 'Aussie Shrapnel' as the more irreverent individuals call it (155gn BJD HBC) that I believe is virtually standard in your part of the world, with good results, in particular Steve Thornton who loads them over VarGet (ADI AR2208). So, this is a good starting point in your particular neck of the woods - although I think you have a different set of rules and classifications anyway? The Canadians limit F/TR to 'less than 156gn' in .308W ('less than 91gn in .223 Rem), but we Brits and the Americans allow any bullet weight in the discipline.

[Hally]

Thanks yes for Fclass standard in 308 155 gr is the rule here in OZ.After reading all the info that everyone has supplied I have decided to hang on until the barrel adapters come in from the U.S for the DTA and get the palmer 30" made.I suppose better to do it once right than curse the day you went down the 26" road only to go shopping for the 30" in time.I will just have to stay in Fclass open with my 6.5x47 and try a bit harder as l am only a B grade shooter Fclass open is a real slog.I find that the 6.5 x47 lap is v/ good out to 600 to 700y but from there to 1000y is when the guys with the 6.5x284 and 7mm brigade hand you your arse on a plate.So when the 30" is made l will go back to my rightfull place in B grade.Thanks