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Thoughts on 7mm-08


Si-Snipe

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I can recall half a dozen i think Laurie. Most of which were dual role deer/target guns. The last one [the gun which shot the 400 yards group ] was a fully blueprinted remmy with a heavy bartlien on. Its main use being target, some CSR next year , and long range varminting. The chap owns his own farm, and is an incredible shot.

 

With the advent of all these good bullets, i,m pretty sure its going to enjoy a revival somewhat.

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Luke (luke wady on here) is building me a 7-08 at the moment. It will be and Remmy 700 in an AICS stock with a Pac Nor medium palma polygonal barrel. TThe intention is that this will be a long range/precision rifle.

 

I've spent a fair amount of time running the ballistics for camparison against .260 and 6.5x47 etc and I don't think they can touch it when loaded with the 162 A-Max.

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I don't think there's a lot to choose between the 260 Rem and the 7mm-08. My plan in the summer of '99 was to buy a 7mm-08 in the US. When I got there, I read about the 260 Rem and decided to get one of those instead. The only issue I have with the 260 Rem is that I load the rounds up to 2.9 inches in length with 140 A-Max or similar bullets. I had a Wyatt's Extended Magazine box fitted to my latest 260 Rem.

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/gallery/member-galleries/p2948-remington-700-sa-in-260-rem.html

Regards JCS

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The 140 loads I used fit and fed fine from the AI mag so don't see any problem mag wise using the 140's?

 

Si,

Not with 6.5X47 as you're using, or 6.5 Creedmoor. It is for the most popular small 6.5, the 260 Rem unless the load allows the bullet to be seated very deep. While the trio all shoot 139/140gn class bullets OK, and some rifles do so brilliantly, I've just acquired the feeling over time that the trio is optimally ballistically matched to 120-230gn bullets, and that chasing 140gn loads may not give a particularly great return for the effort and barrel wear and tear involved.

 

 

I can recall half a dozen i think Laurie. Most of which were dual role deer/target guns. The last one [the gun which shot the 400 yards group ] was a fully blueprinted remmy with a heavy bartlien on. Its main use being target, some CSR next year , and long range varminting. The chap owns his own farm, and is an incredible shot.

 

With the advent of all these good bullets, i,m pretty sure its going to enjoy a revival somewhat.

 

Thanks Dave. That's encouraging. I have a yen to have a go with the cartridge at some point, although .284 Win is next in line and will be my first '7' in many, many years. (One of my first ever rifles was a scruffy and mismatched Orange Free State M1895 long Mauser made by DWM of Berlin, a genuine 'Boer Mauser' in 7X57mm. Despite looking like a heap of junk and with a rearsight with such a shallow V-notch you had trouble seeing it, it performed brilliantly. It cost me all of £50 and I sold it for 200 and something after 10 years, the only rifle I've owned that I made a profit on!)

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Si,

Not with 6.5X47 as you're using, or 6.5 Creedmoor. It is for the most popular small 6.5, the 260 Rem unless the load allows the bullet to be seated very deep. While the trio all shoot 139/140gn class bullets OK, and some rifles do so brilliantly, I've just acquired the feeling over time that the trio is optimally ballistically matched to 120-230gn bullets, and that chasing 140gn loads may not give a particularly great return for the effort and barrel wear and tear involved.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Dave. That's encouraging. I have a yen to have a go with the cartridge at some point, although .284 Win is next in line and will be my first '7' in many, many years. (One of my first ever rifles was a scruffy and mismatched Orange Free State M1895 long Mauser made by DWM of Berlin, a genuine 'Boer Mauser' in 7X57mm. Despite looking like a heap of junk and with a rearsight with such a shallow V-notch you had trouble seeing it, it performed brilliantly. It cost me all of £50 and I sold it for 200 and something after 10 years, the only rifle I've owned that I made a profit on!)

 

Despite recent misguided hand wringing here,Laurie,I wouldn't be too bothered at a 400%+ mark up-inflation will have nibbled at that. My 7x57 was a similar experience,though I traded mine in for one of those new fangled (post Boer War) 6.5 rifles (M/S 6.5x54).Similar enough,calibre might catch on. Just a near perfect combination,though not in the 17 hmr league for 4 mile shots at pachyderms.No free lunch there of course,it must be a pain to have to walk back that far from the elephant to get the trajectory right,and line of sight might be problematic,even in the Serengeti.

Re 284w,the 280r is lurking in the wings,I suspect, too,with only one downside-it doesn't need fiddling with,so maybe the 6.5 Rem Mag (or 350 r mag) will finally get some deserved attention as it has a few challenges,like being a short fat case-what were they thinking about 50 years ago!

george

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The chart below with field tested multi BC's shows the wind drift difference between 123 and 140 Amax. Note that I have given 2 different loads for the 123's both mild and red hot. The load for the 140's is easily achievable and quite mild in 6.5x47. Even the red hot barrel munching load with the 123's can't touch it ballistically hence why I favour the 140's.

1356023509.jpg

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... (One of my first ever rifles was a scruffy and mismatched Orange Free State M1895 long Mauser made by DWM .. in 7X57mm. ... performed brilliantly...

 

Funny you should mention the old "7 Mil" Laurie.

 

My good hunting mate inherited an old (?50's vintage) Brno 7x57 off his deceased brother. It was very rough round the edges and needed some TLC. I tidied various bits up, cleaned out the filthy bore, sorted the horrible trigger and took it out to see how she shot. Answer was badly despite various loads- nothing was even better than 2". In desperation, I pulled it apart and spotted the likely culprit. Someone had done a "bedding job" with cheap car bog and it looked like the cat had thrown up. It was also cracking up in places. Fully redid it in Marinetex and back off to the range.

 

Here was the second group I shot on Wed:

 

MikesBrnoDec12_zpsff6d91bc.jpg

 

BTW, AR2209 powder is H4350 in its native state.

 

MikesBrno_zps97061dce.jpg

 

So don't write off an old rifle til you've tried it

 

Chris-NZ

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The chart below with field tested multi BC's shows the wind drift difference between 123 and 140 Amax. Note that I have given 2 different loads for the 123's both mild and red hot. The load for the 140's is easily achievable and quite mild in 6.5x47. Even the red hot barrel munching load with the 123's can't touch it ballistically hence why I favour the 140's.

1356023509.jpg

 

Seems so: about 2 inches less drift at 600 yards. (6.5 compared to 8.5 inches drift.)Worth having,but not a huge difference-a few clicks more.As you say,you could get more fps from the 140,so it might be 3 inches...If the 123 g were more accurate,it would be a pretty close run thing,though there is no reason why they should be.With small differences,go with the heavier bullet-or does bullet drop offset this-if it's too close to call,your confidence probably comes in,though recoild won't be much of a factor,but as you might well misjudge the wind out there a bit anyhow...140 has the edge as shots get longer. george

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Chris,

 

I had a BRNO ZKK just like that in 270 Win. It came secondhand with really nice wood, in mint condition, and with the optional factory fitted East German Aus-Jena four-power (or was it 3.5?) Zeiss copy scope on a fancy factory mount with inbuilt windage adjustment. (Had to have as there wasn't any on the scope body) Fine rifle - got it for bugger-all as BRNOs and 270s were (probably still are) very 'out'. It shot very well, certainly as well as any ordinary stalking rifle needed to do.

 

Si,

 

I don't challenge the ballistics. In any given calibre, two bullets of different weights which are of equally efficient design (same or similar i7 drag based 'form factor' values) and which achieve equivalent velocities considering their weights (ie produce same or similar ME values in ft/lbs) ALWAYS sees the heavier model move less in the wind. It will have a higher, less-flat, trajectory which may be an issue for people shooting at things at unknown ranges, but is not a problem for target shooting over known ranges. The heavier bullet will also ALWAYS have a slightly higher long-range terminal velocity too, beyond 800 yards in the sort of example we're talking about here.

 

I've been through this whole process in F/TR which took me from 155s to 215s. However .... if that's all there were too it, everybody with 6.5s would shoot 140 VLDs, everybody with a seven 180 Hybrids and VLDS and everybody with a 308 the latest 230gn Hybrids. Many have like myself adopted heavier and heavier bullets, longer and longer freebore throats, faster and faster twists ... then gone back to lighter bullets. 140s work for some in 1,000yd F and similar with the 6.5X47. I've just come to the conclusion I get better results with the 123gn Lapua Scenar up to the 130gn Norma and Berger VLDs in the ballistically similar 260 Rem. If I adopted 6.5-284, I'd undoubtedly shoot 140s given the larger case and powder charge. In 308, I've rowed back to 155s and the 168gn Berger Hybrid and am getting better results than with 185s to 210s. There are all sorts of factors in play which include shooting styles as well as external ballistics, but I do think you can over-bullet a given size of cartridge irrespective of what the ballistics suggest.

 

If you compare two very good designs of different weights, the wind drift differences are often marginal anyway. Taking the 130gn Norma Black Diamond VLD which is the ballistically outstanding 6.5mm 130 (i7 = 0.904; G7 BC 0.294) and comparing it to the 140gn Berger VLD which is the most efficient bullet in this weight / calibre bar the Hoover which I've never seen anybody in the UK get hold of (i7 = 0.918; G7 BC 0.313) and using your 2,750 fps MV for 140s as as the ballistics base, the equivalent MV for a 130 is 2,854 fps - both MVs produce 2,351.5 ft/lbs muzzle energy.

 

Run them through Bryan Litz's Point Mass Ballistics Solver 2 program in G7 mode and you get:

 

130 Norma .... 2,854 fps MV .... 1,475 fps at 1,000 ..... 6.93-MOA / 72.55 inches drift in a 10 mph crosswind

140 VLD ...... 2,750 fps MV .... 1,470 fps at 1,000 ..... 6.76-MOA / 70.74 inches drift in a 10 mph crosswind

 

Returning to the sevens, logically a suitably throated single-shot 7mm-08 will handle a 180gn VLD, or even the much rumoured 190s or is it 195 VLDs to come, but I'd rather stay with a shorter throat and use 162-168s with this size of case.

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Hi Laurie

I shoot lots of vermin with my 6.5 so Amax is the humane and obvious choice for me. I did shoot Scenars at first which shot some very nice groups at long range. They are a good bullet in this barrel but not suitable for shooting live quarry. The choice between 123 and 140 Amax with accuracy being equal is a no-brainer.

After chewing over 7-08 with 162's and x47 with 140's I'd prob stick with the 6.5x47. Like you have pointed out there is a gain but its small. Seeing as I have the dies for x47 and know the cal it would be the sensible choice. :)

Cheers

Si

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After chewing over 7-08 with 162's and x47 with 140's I'd prob stick with the 6.5x47. Like you have pointed out there is a gain but its small. Seeing as I have the dies for x47 and know the cal it would be the sensible choice.

 

Si,

good choice - I'd do the same in your shoes. If it ain't broke, no sense in looking for a solution to a non-problem! :)

Laurie

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You're right about those Scenars being too hard for live quarry Si- they just pencil through in a disappointing fashion from my 47. Dead accurate but zero cloud of fur or feathers. I have some 123 A-Maxs to try and mates here say to expect a bit more action..

 

Chris-NZ

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You're right about those Scenars being too hard for live quarry Si- they just pencil through in a disappointing fashion from my 47. Dead accurate but zero cloud of fur or feathers. I have some 123 A-Maxs to try and mates here say to expect a bit more action..

 

Chris-NZ

 

You will be pleasantly surprised. ;)

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You will be pleasantly surprised. ;)

 

Si,Yourself,Chris,Laurie and even me all agree-6.5x47 with 140 Amax- for your appplications-bullet performance on live quarry is of paramount importance,way ahead of BCs etc etc.(why it's specified for deer,of course). As ever knowing the application helps greatly-as well as other factors like bullet /quarry experiences,not always included.There can also be differences between target and hunter shooters.The first want precision only,the second need accuracy and quarry kill.While there can be some overlap,bullets are designed for different purposes,and this can be overlooked especially between different shooting purposes,so there is 'discussion' around people's genuine experiences,let alone ballistic data,but some ot least isn't focussed very well,to begin with.'Stalking' is a current example-there is quite a difference between woodland roe at 150 max,or from a high seat,and open hill,lots of hard walking,longer shots at reds,and carrying your rifle.Varminting too,as I recall.(17 and 6.5!)

george

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