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Guest Smeagle

Good grace in defeat not your strong point?

 

Take it you and this other fellow are friends? that's nice and cosy, how many of you is it going to take, it appears that three or is it four on to one, little old me is turning out to be a little one sided, so I will tell you what, I will give you two or three posts to my one. Is that fair?.

 

I am glad to see that literacy has finally reached Cornwall though.

 

Andrew, those sound really interesting, there is a fellow here in South Australia who is pretty well known it the mussel loading world, it is definitely a sport that I would love to explore more, getting back to basics as it where. Even the replicas that they are making these days are right up there and someone was telling me that in the States black powder hunting has come along in leaps and bounds especially on the eastern seaboard. Those guys really know what is what.

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You go back to dreaming' pard as it is better than reading the response from a verbally challenged Abo, who has nothing constructive to say but has all the time to verbally abuse other site members.

 

I have no problem reading or getting involved in a good informative discussion but when another member has nothing better to do than hurl abuse then it is time the moderators kicked that person off, especially one that keeps saying "HE REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO GET INVOLVED" but can't help himself from hurling abuse.

 

My advise, if you really don't want to get involved DON'T because I for one have no time for idiots, by all means put your case forward and maybe help folks out and add some advice, and maybe they might even change the way they do things, but don't be a fool all your life, take a day off.

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Smeagle: Give it a whirl. There are Bench guns that have the capability to shoot as well as CF rifles. It was well known that the best rifles in 1870's would shoot a 60 inch "string" at 440 Rods distance. If you're not familiar with the measurement, this means that a the when the distances from the target center to the edge of each bullet hole was measured and added together, the total was only 60 inches for the whole group. I have a dozen of so muzzle loading rifles and as many black powder revolvers. My best rifle at distance is my Parker Hale Whitworth hex-bore. I have shot 2.4" for 5 shots at 200M when my eyes were a little younger.

 

I don't know about the Eastern part of the country. I live in Montana. We have it a little more wide open than those folks...~Andrew

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So....

after all this, what break inn would you Andrew and Silent advise?

 

I can understand that rubbing all sorts of brass/bronze brushes or paper/cotton patches

over a soft stainless rifling hundreds of times will do some damage to the rifling.

But so will corrosion. or? A bit of care is needed. Burnt powder and half corroded copper

can't be harmless over time and a bit of moist air.

 

Would you clean after shooting a few rounds and putting away for a week or longer?

 

Silent, I saw on your other picture that you do have a cleaning rod ;)

 

edi

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So....

after all this, what break inn would you Andrew and Silent advise?

 

I can understand that rubbing all sorts of brass/bronze brushes or paper/cotton patches

over a soft stainless rifling hundreds of times will do some damage to the rifling.

But so will corrosion. or? A bit of care is needed. Burnt powder and half corroded copper

can't be harmless over time and a bit of moist air.

 

Would you clean after shooting a few rounds and putting away for a week or longer?

 

Silent, I saw on your other picture that you do have a cleaning rod ;)

 

edi

 

I don't run in barrels. A very good custom gunsmith I apprenticed with once would take button rifled barrels (he liked Douglas Air Gaged at the time) and fire a single round through them, then clean it, and repeat. This was while he was testing his chambering job and was more for safety sake then any running in. We test fired the guns into a lidded sand-trap inside the shop and back wash of dust often came back. Cleaning was to insure that no debris was in the barrel. A factory rifle has already had several rounds through it before you get it so I believe the matter is moot.

 

One of my most consistently accurate rifles is a CZ 22 Hornet. It shot a quarter to three-tenths inches out of the box and continues to do so a thousand rounds later. The only cleaning it has had has been a pull through with a "Bore Snake" that has a scant drop of oil on it. As far as bore protection goes, that's all you need. For copper fouling I will not use brushes. I use "Sweets 7.62" cleaner for light use, or an electric bore cleaner for heavily fouled guns; usually used guns I bring home and de-plate. I do this only once, generally, and then use the Sweets from thereafter.~Andrew

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I found them rods in a shop that sell fishing and shooting gear

 

I thought they were some kinda spear for fishing??????????????

 

 

cleaning wise I like to do as little tight scrubbing as possible as that may over polish the bore and because the jag tip isnt shaped to the profile of the bore it will (if it does) wear the lands first thats why copper in the grooves is the hardest to get rid of, so I use a good fit mop for the solvent and if its a good fit it gently adgitates the surface of the copper into lifting

 

I would therefore rather stroke a soft but good fit mop up and down the bore thats soaked with solvent rather than the equivallant of what it would take in solvent soaked patches and only use a patch or two to push all the solvent out after being allowed to soak for 5 to 10 mins

 

if it still has copper then I just repeat the process using the mop with the solvent then after 5 to 10 mins patch and so on

 

I have read of david tubb using a mop that was the next size up and have tried this and it is a bit firmer on the copper but still not as hard as a tight patch

 

I have a pistol cleaning rod with a parker hale 308 jag on it that I have carefully cut down the middle that I use for mopping out the chamber with a peice of kitchen towel to do the mopping of course, then use a clean piece with whatever you use for washing out chamber and bore

 

any way thats my prefered method but others may have better, I just like to be as kind as possible to my girls poke holes

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I don't run in barrels. A very good custom gunsmith I apprenticed with once would take button rifled barrels (he liked Douglas Air Gaged at the time) and fire a single round through them, then clean it, and repeat. This was while he was testing his chambering job and was more for safety sake then any running in. We test fired the guns into a lidded sand-trap inside the shop and back wash of dust often came back. Cleaning was to insure that no debris was in the barrel. A factory rifle has already had several rounds through it before you get it so I believe the matter is moot.

 

One of my most consistently accurate rifles is a CZ 22 Hornet. It shot a quarter to three-tenths inches out of the box and continues to do so a thousand rounds later. The only cleaning it has had has been a pull through with a "Bore Snake" that has a scant drop of oil on it. As far as bore protection goes, that's all you need. For copper fouling I will not use brushes. I use "Sweets 7.62" cleaner for light use, or an electric bore cleaner for heavily fouled guns; usually used guns I bring home and de-plate. I do this only once, generally, and then use the Sweets from thereafter.~Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

 

my views are similar to andrews and have used a bore snak and bore guide whilst in the field for cleaning

 

I only have one gun that I very delicately clean after she has been fired using the mop/solvent method and try to put as little tight patches down as poss

 

I used to clean aLOT but dont any where near as much these days

 

I just happen to have shown ray my 762 bore that I havent cleaned for months and there is no copper fouling in it what so ever, just looks a little dull from the burnt powder but there is no damage

 

when I did clean it last there was no need to use a copper solvent so I just used 009 pear drops ;) and pushed it through, it took the burnt powder out and was back to bare metal

 

looking back most of the guns I have had actually shot better when fouled and at the end of a days hunting/shooting a pull through with a bore guide cleans em up enough so that the burnt powders are removed

 

I also used to run in my rifles but as I have done more tests and got a bit braver about leaving one gun dirty after shooting etc etc I cant be bothered to run in except for making sure the barrel was clean and did not feel like it had sharp or rough patches in whilst pushing a rod through

 

all four of my centre fires I have now I have not botherd to break in or run in and three of them shoot real well and the others a pistol

 

my four previously owned centre fire rifles I did run in and cleaned all the time weather five, thirty or one round was fired but I aint going down that road again and believe I may have done more harm than good but thats my oppinion that I am sure i will get flamed on

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I agree with your statement about some fouled guns shooting better. I have received e-mails from guys who over clean barrels all the time. I tell them to just shoot and not worry about it; Otherwise, how is the barrel going to settle in?? ~Andrew

 

PS: I should mention that I only shoot jacketed bullets from three rifles now, having switched entirely to cast bullets for big game and target. My copper cleansing is only in preparation for cast bullet shooting. Only my 17 CF's ever had noticeably degrades accuracy from copper fouling. Even my 220 Ackley Improved Swift -a real flame thrower- shot fine without fastidious cleaning.

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Thanks, Andrew/ Silent

I always fire two three fouling shots out of a clean barrel before

going stalking. That makes sense.

 

I also now understand your approach: minimal ammount

of cleaning with minimal ammount of wear on the rifling.

 

Maybe smeagle misunderstood that.

 

edi

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I would not not actually dissagree with people wanting to clean there gun all the time as ONE of my guns recieves this but the others dont

 

I see some people scrubbing the that which promotes growth and vigour out of their guns when they dont need to, when it would be ok to leave it shoot a lot more rounds between cleans and take a better look at their cleaning methods as there is usually something we all can do to lesson the wear such as use mops to apply the solvents then push out with only one or two patches, then use another mop soaked in whatever you use for washing out followed by a couple or three dry patches to dry the bore

 

in other words I try to use as little tight patches as I can, still get the gun clean and make sure everything is flushed out and dry

 

a wool mop will allways shape better to the hex (for example to give you an idea) bore and is softer than a patch on a tight ROUND jag

 

sure its very important to keep a rifle nice and clean but I think that we are at that stage when we have taken it a little far

 

all but one of my guns sit dirty in my safe, theres nothing wrong with the ones I have left dirty, they are not damaged in any way and the all shoot very very good groups if I do my bit of course

 

I have seen old seriously neglected guns that have shot military ammo, old stuff thats corrosive and havnt been looked after and have been given a real hard time with all sorts of bent rods etc put down them, the bore is scratched, pitted etc and for some reason they still shoot well

 

this is of course at the extreme end of bad and over cleaning is at the extreme end of good (maybe over good can be slightly bad)

 

a friend of mine shoots a 308 musgrave he uses for hunting in south africa, he maintains the gun by keeping it wiped down on the outside, keeps the chamber clean and free of dust and dirt and keeps the bolt clean

 

he has had it many years and when I clean it for him (he only has it cleaned when I visit him once a year) the bore comes up spotless and it shoots real well and shows it will be a shooter for years and years to come

 

he has been shooting all his life, I believe he was also a major in the army and he tells me I fuss to much???????????

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I often come back from a nights lamping after maybe only firing a couple of shots wondering why I feel compeld to clean the barrel after only firing 2 shots, it does seem so silly. I think that there is so much bullshit around about cleaning barrel cleaning that I think if I dont get the fouling out now it will somehow be stuck in there when left to sit for a few days its even sillier as my little pac-nor even after 30 shots cleans after 5 wet patches, it hardly fouls, yet last night I came home at 2am only fired 3 shots and was knackered but still couldnt go to bed without cleaning even though I had to be up at 6:30am. I think a lot of people including me have been brainwashed into thinking if we dont clean the barrel we are doing harm and the fouling is somehow carroding our barrels, but if I look at my stainlles smoderator after probably more than 1000 rounds down it, its full of carbon and it aint carroding. I ownt even leave it for a couple of days and clean when I have time, it has to be done right then and there. It probably is silly and I would be better just keeping track of how many rounds I have fired and clean it after say 30-40 rounds.

 

Also I agree keeping the chamber clean is very important, I just use a cleaning rod with the right size jag so I cant damage the bore if it rips through and cut a patch about 3x3 and put a dab of solvent on it and push it into the chamber and spin it then as the patch is ver big on the way out it catches up pretty good in the lug recess and a few swirls cleans it out too, then I just do the same again with a dry 3x3 patch to take out the solvent.

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I know the feeling well

 

with some of my previous centre fire rifles I had been that brainwashed that I had been scrubbing till 3 in the morning knowing that I had to get up for work in a few hours

 

now its like "oh spiral staircase it I havent cleaned my barrel in my 223 for four weeks(sixty rounds or more), better get on that quick before its spiral staircaseed"

 

clean the rifle and that which promotes growth and vigour it cleaned easier than I thought and the bore is spottless

 

oh those long long tired nights of half falling asleep whilst putting the next patch down for a long long long long five minute soak only to drop off and head but the scope or something silly

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I have an 8.15x46R target rifle that has a pit; and I mean a black looking crevasse, across one of the lands and into the adjacent two grooves. The darned thing will shoot as well as I can hold. One of my most accurate 30 caliber rifles was a Remingon 788 bolt gun in 30-30 Winchester. It shot so well with iron sights that I decided to scope it. Imagine my surprise when I removed the iron sights and found that the mounting holes were drilled right into the bore itself. I didn't notice it until I fired a round near sunset and caught the jet of flame coming out of the un filled screw holes. It still shot 1/2 MOA with darned near any bullet between 150 and 180 grains! ~Andrew

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Guest Smeagle

Not going to flame anyone because now your making sense. I agree with what your saying for the most part.

 

Lets talk seriously as to why you clean and the principles behind it the same as running in. Now Andrew you have a rifle that shoots well despite a pit which is counterintuitive. Well that isn't as much of a surprise as you might think. The part of the barrel that dose most of the work is the first two inches and the last two inches, which is why you are right to clean the chamber correctly, the bit in the middle is basically to keep these two ends apart if that makes sense, as long as the pit isn't scoring the projectile and effecting its flight or worse weakening the wall then there is no reason why it wouldn't shoot well. As the projectile runs along the lands it creates friction which smears copper along them, we all know that, this creates fouling, this in itself isn't as much of a problem as other aspects, its still a problem and shouldn't be allowed to build up due to excessive pressure but you would really need to be neglectful to allow that to happen. The biggest problem is the propellant or rather the chemicals in the gas, more specifically the stabilizing agent. This forms along the wall, the copper then forms on top of it, and if you keep going it forms a kind of sandwich, so what as long as it is trapped in there. The problem is that the chemical is not only corrosive in itself it also because it has a dense molecular structure it acts in a similar way to moly, it binds moisture. By running it in which is a side line you give a little protection to this, but more importantly with a regime of cleaning you prevent it from happening.

 

Now the thing is to keep this regime a habit and to ensure that it is actually done, the target boys place a shot number on it where the hunting lads put a duration on it ie before the rifle goes away or at the end of the day etc this has caused no end of disagreement in the past as to which is correct, well both are technically, because it doesn't matter as long as you clean and condition before this process can occur and it takes weeks and a few rounds to get it going, so you see the answer is that you are correct but also if you don't clean it then you will shag your rifle. This is actually less of a problem for target rifles than hunting rifles, because they actually shoot more rounds and the barrel will be shot out before corroded out, that is not an excuse not to clean because this corrosion will weaken the structure of the metal, also you will build up to much fouling which will effect consistency eventually. Also the cleaning process does a lot less damage than some would have people believe, the barrel is designed to accept high pressure, heat and a metal object passing through it at thousands of feet per second, so going over it with a brush and a patch is really insignificant by comparison, of course don't scrape the rod along the wall the same as the crown which should be protected. If you do use a bore snake in the field and there is no reason why not just pull it evenly and not against the rim of the crown, some hate them and say that they should never be used but it is not a problem once in a while with just a little common sense. Any scratch or pit in the wall becomes a focal point its kind of like bacteria on a bench top it always collects in the cuts, so the chemicals will collect but is in itself not a huge drama, as long as it is cleaned out.

 

You maybe interested to know that recent developments that I cannot go into in depth, not least because I am not an expert on it, but anyway this is seen as so significant that the next generation of navel guns will be no touch, this is to reduce friction, wear and can send a projectile at three times the speed. Basically the system works on electromagnetism so the projectile doesn't touch the wall at any point there is also no propellant, they have started a down scale field piece and its only a matter of time before it is reduced further. The stumbling block at the minute is the size of the capacitors to generate the power needed. All of this development is in place to prevent happening what happens when you don't clean the bore.

 

But there really is no need to sit up at the end of the night scrubbing away, as long as you do it the next day or so, you can leave it for a week with no real ill effect, the problem then is that people forget or get slack so the reason this has been reinforced is one of discapline more than anything else, it is a hang over from the military where most shooters learnt their craft years ago.

 

The thing is this Silent I know, really know, when you are on the line you can make it go any place you want, you can pick up any rifle and zero and shoot of the bat and hit, you hit at distances no one else can, that's why you don't think you need to clean or run in, it comes naturally, you can feel it you know where the round will hit by instinct as I said I had you pinned from the first post, but your learning from trail and error and what your reading, your being self taught. Am I correct, this is fine for now but you have reached the stage that you need a kick up the arse, what you really need is to find the discipline that suites and a good coach, real good coach. I don't give a that which promotes growth and vigour what people think of me but stop spiral staircaseing about and get it done because most of the guys on here don't have one tenth of your talent.

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You maybe interested to know that recent developments that I cannot go into in depth, not least because I am not an expert on it, but anyway this is seen as so significant that the next generation of navel guns will be no touch, this is to reduce friction, wear and can send a projectile at three times the speed. Basically the system works on electromagnetism so the projectile doesn't touch the wall at any point there is also no propellant, they have started a down scale field piece and its only a matter of time before it is reduced further. The stumbling block at the minute is the size of the capacitors to generate the power needed.

 

That would be a rail gun. Typically requiring a boat load of power and typically a supreconductive set of rails (and I won't get started on the physics of that...)...

 

Oh, as to the topic...We're all grown men, we all (well most of us) pay for our weapons...do what you want, it isn't (IMHO) worth arguing over... :mellow:

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keep it coming smeagle because you are only proving to others that you are being a low life at the mo

 

for you information and to let others on here that dont know me there are people on here including a moderator that whitness me shooting at long distance and doing what I do so stop being grumpy old man and lets get on

 

 

I haver never said that I am better than any one on here, it is you that seems to think you are some sorta of god and everyone else is below you

 

just reading your posts it proves it to others

 

stop wasting time am upseting others that might be new to the site cause they dont wanna read this crap

 

it seems that where ever I will try to help others if I can you are going to give me that which promotes growth and vigour so please kindly stop it bud cause I dont want it to go anyfurther

 

lets all get on on here

 

ja

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Well as a newbie I'm not really qualified on this, but I can share my experiences.

 

With my Tikka 6.5x55 (my first and only centre fire) I cleaned the barrel before the first shot in case there was any oil (or whatever) in there, then set about shooting it. The first shot fired keyholed at 50 yards! After that first shot I cleaned it. I was getting large chunks of swarf (copper I think) out on the patches! For the next fifteen rounds I cleaned every shot and slowly the patches started coming out as I think it should, blue but with no obvious pieces of metal on it. Then I shot two rounds and cleaned, then three and cleaned. All the patches were coming out fine. That was a box of 20 down it, and I was getting near on neat hole groups at 50 yards (with PPU FMJ). My main concern is this....What would have happened with the swarf of the first shot if I'd have fired again? Surely the bullet having to fight its way through that lot would have at least got the pressure up a bit?

 

With my CZ American HMR it was all different. I cleaned it and fired the first shot. Cleaned it (got next to nothing out) and fired again. Again, nothing coming out. I got bored after the third round and started boresnaking it now and again!. With Remington ammo I (my mentor actually :mellow: ) was getting clover leafs at 100!

 

I'm no expert and I don't really understand the procedure to be honest, but in my view clean it for the first couple and see what the patch looks like. If it's very dirty and has swarf in it, clean and fire again until it's sorted. If all looks well then don't bother!

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Hi

 

I have read quit a bit about this breaking in a new barrel,(including Gale McMillan "Theory" http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/break_in.html )And to the best on my knowledge the practice is best referred to as " Theory" AS nether Gale Mcillan, Or all the rest of the barrel manufactures,don't have any scientific/controlled study/evidence to back up there side of the argument.So unless you lot know any different, Or can point us to the scientific study carried out, then this is a pissing contest no one can win.Just ask 100 different people/barrel manufactures and you will get 100 different answers. AND I think, there must be at least 100 different types of gun cleaners/solvents on the market, plus numerous home brewed concoctions. All are guaranteed to do a super duty job removing copper, powder, plastic, dirt and general all around grunge from your favorite rifle

Me, I will carry on doing as the manufactures have instructed me to do, loather Walther say shoot 20 shots through the barrel, clean back to bare metal, then shoot another 20 and clean again, Then enjoy. I did this and i have yet to see any copper on my patch yet.

And it was no trouble as i was working up a load at the time.

I have all so read somewhere that the first shot out you barrel is the best one your barrel will ever fire,And from then on the barrel will be getting slowly less accurate as every successive shot gets put through it.

hmmmm this means that every barrel will never show its best on the range, As the best part of the barrel will be wasted in zeroing/working up a load/proofing/and so on.

 

 

ATB

Colin :mellow:

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