silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 hang on mr taliban I have just reached five rounds please hold still till I cleaned my sa80 bbl lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Please keep this topic civil gents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Smeagle, The factual information you quoted was relevant and helpful - please can you quote the source. Sadly the rest of your post was that which promotes growth and vigour and drivel. - Take a chill pill David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds1 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 nutty, Border Barrels - recommend a 10 shot break-in. I followed this with my Border tube. Essentialy 1 shot per day followed by soaking in Forrest Bore Foam. - Details should be on their web page. If I had any doubts about it , it was only that Forrest is water based I think - but I have seen barrels after 24 hours with forrest in it and no ill effects. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuttyspaniel Posted January 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Ive used forrest myself and found it good, but the bloody stuff can go everywhere. I would use it again as Im a lazy bugger hence the all weather rifle!! If I could get it in the barrel without its volcanic nature in the action!!! The times I used it I spent more time cleaning the action out to stop it looking as if it had rabies!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smeagle Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Now I recall why I don't come on here much, to busy to suffer fools. See ya chaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager SA Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Put the nozzle in the chamber into the land and squeeze the button until it comes out the muzzle, leave it standing muzzle to the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuttyspaniel Posted January 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Thats what I did Kal!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Nutty order yourself some wipeout from here wipeout, wipeout is the original foam bore cleaner and supposedly the best, I used to use it alot and it works brilliantly for a heavier fouling barrel I just dont use it anymore as I prefer to clean the rifle straight away I am not able to leave the rifle sitting for a day to dwell as I am only home a couple of days the week. It comes with a spout but its useless however the nozzle sits proud and fits even my 20 cal bore and provided you hold it tight you wont have any problem with overspill, just plug up the chamber with your bore guide spray down from the muzzle with the rifle standing on its butt then when the foam come out the bore guid port youre done. Also get the accelorator to speed it up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nico243 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I have to be honest, although NOT convinced that "running-in" a barrel works, I must confess to erring on the side of caution and I have always run my barrels in. Even if no real benifit is gained from the "running-in" precedure, at the very least it (albeit psycologically) it give a little extra confidence in using a new rifle to know you have done all you can to maximise potential accuracy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Smeagle: Sounds plausible but how was the science proven? Or is this theory? ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Topic: Barrel break ins Author Comments -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bullseye Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 12:38 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen messages posted on this board refering to breaking in of new barrels. What is this procedure? Is it different for chrome lined vs. regular barrels? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 10:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul B. Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 04:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mac. SUSPICIONS CONFIRMED! Paul B -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gizmo99 Moderator posted September 25, 1999 06:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No flame here Mr. Mac. When my personal history is comparable to yours, I may throw rocks - not until then though. I have done this on factory barrels and had good results. I usually use JB compound for the first few shots and through cleaning after range sessions. The aggressive use of JB seems to smooth things up pretty quickly. (duh) I do not have a custom barrel on any of my rifles. (yet) Would you still hold that the procedure is unneeded on factory barrels? Giz ------------------ "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 25, 1999 07:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I answered this and lost it on transfer so will shorten this one and try to get my point across in fewer words. When some one uses JB on one of my rifles I void the warrantee! For two reasons. ! it dimensionally alters the barrel dimensions and not evenly and the second reason is the barrel maker laps the barrel with a grit of lapping compound that is most effective in preventing metal fouling. Then a customer polishes that finish away with JB. I wouldn't be as apposed to it if it were applied on a lead lap and very sparingly. It is very obvious when you look at a barrel with a bore scopes all the sharp edges are worn off the rifling. if it has JB used on it on a regular basis. As you know ,it is an abrasive of about 1000 grit. As for using it on factory barrels I will say that while it is difficult to hurt a production barrel but the thing that hurts a match barrel will do the same to a factory barrel -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul B. Senior Member posted September 26, 1999 04:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I understand what you are saying about JB compound, but, for example, I have a rifle in .375x338 Mag that copper fouls so badly that even JB bore paste doesn't do it. Even the stronger solvents don't seem to phase the stuff. I have several other rifles that are just as bad. What would you suggest I do? Please don't say buy another rifle. If I do, my wife will kill me. Paul B. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 26, 1999 05:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pual I would rather see you use Otters Foul out as it is easy onthe barrel. I have only used it on my 50 but it worked well on it -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andygold Senior Member posted September 26, 1999 07:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale, Please excuse my poor memory 8^) If I remember correctly, at AR15.com or maybe at Bushmaster's site I read something about having to fire 100 - 150 rounds with no cleaning or perhaps minimal cleaning. The article said something about leaving some residue in the barrel to help polish/smooth the barrel's internal finish. To clean the barrel before completing this break in procedure would put you back at square one. This pertained to an AR15 with a chrome lined barrel. From what you are saying... I take it the break-in will only be a waste of ammo. Am I understanding you correctly? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 26, 1999 07:35 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats right. it is a waste of barrel and time. I don't know much about lined barrels but it may be that the barrel is rough due to the plating process. With high volume fire as in full auto it helps to protect against erosion and no one is concerned with accuracy as it is spray and pray. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- slabsides Senior Member posted September 27, 1999 04:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bullseye: My credentials aren't as impressive as Mr. McMillan's, but I do have some experience with new factory barrels and used ones that have been neglected or abused by previous owners. Factory barrels aren't lapped or polished as a rule; the first couple of hundred shots through therefore, apparently serve to 'season' the bore, wearing away microscopic imperfections. Especially during this time, firing too many rounds too fast is not a good practice. I try to keep the barrel cool, especially until a few hundred shots have gone down the bore. That means that at least at first, I shoot only a few shots per session, and of course cleaning after each session. It's not so much the cleaning that helps is the gradual wearing in. I have used JB Paste for years on neglected barrels, to scour out years of fouling there was nothing better until the electric de-re-unplaters came along. Maybe JB isn't good for fine lapped bores. All I know is that it is a rejuvenator and accuracy restorer on neglected barrels of the ordinary kind. As for chrome plated bores I have little experience with them, and can make no recommendation. slabsides ------------------ An armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject; a disarmed man is a slave. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 27, 1999 06:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barrel makers luv ya! If you have a bad barrel there isn't much that can hurt it or help it for that matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mal H Moderator posted September 27, 1999 06:55 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale, may I pick your brain on a question I have been wondering about? It has nothing to do with bbl break in, but this is as good a place as any to ask it. You mentioned above that JB, and I'm sure other compounds or cleaning methods (I think the 'tornado' brushes are a plot by the factory bbl manufacturers), will wear down the sharp edges of the rifling. My question is how important is the sharpness of the rifling to accuracy. Have you done any experiments with sharp vs. dull rifling, all other aspects of the bbl being equal? Maybe this type of examination would be a better test of when a bbl has bit the dust instead of throat wear, for instance. TIA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 27, 1999 09:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling . Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone. A lap always cuts more on each end where the compound reverses direction as it starts back through the barrel which means that it is enlarging the bore at each ends of the barrel. And last picture a patch riding along the barrel with abrasive on it. It is removing material at a given rate. It comes to a place where there is copper fouling and it rides over it cutting the same amount that it was cutting before it came to the copper. You continue until all the fouling is gone and what have you done? You have put the came contour in the barrel steel that was in it when it was metal fouled. It would not be as bad if it were used on a lead lap but I ask why would you want to abuse the barrel when you can accomplish the same thing without the bad side effects. There is Sweats, Otters foul out or just a good daily cleaning with a good bore cleaner till the fouling is gone. To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB. Brass brushes are softer than barrel steel and does no harm. S/S brushes are harder than barrel steel is definetly a no no. Nylon may surprise you to know is very abrasive If you doubt this look at the carbide eye on yout fishing rod where nylon line has worn groves into it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mal H Moderator posted September 27, 1999 10:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If the previous post was for me, I believe you misunderstood my question. I absolutely believe you are correct about not using abrasives. My question was on the effects of rounded rifling on accuracy. Since the rifling is there to impart an angular velocity to a bullet, I was wondering if you had done any experiments with sharp vs. rounded rifling to see how much it affected the accuracy and any theories on why it affected it. My comment on the tornado (SS) brushes shows that we are of a like mind on this. My theory is that, as you hinted at, the use of abrasives near the muzzle create imperfections in the roundness of the bore and greatly affect the bullet as it leaves the muzzle. Since it is almost impossible for a human to impart the same cleaning action on the entire inside diameter of the muzzle evenly, they can ruin the muzzle very quickly. Any imperfections in this area, no matter how minute, can affect accuracy. Using any harsh cleaning methods can cause these imperfections. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gizmo99 Moderator posted September 27, 1999 10:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is very interesting to me. I have used JB and other compounds and I am rethinking that use. Outers cleaning kits are fairly inexpensive.............. John Feamster once wrote that his break in procedure for a target rifle was to clean every 60 rounds or so.. The Barnes folks tell you to clean when your barrel stops shooting well.. Things to think about. I still like an aggressive cleaning on factory barrels for the first few rounds. Might have to get the Foul-Out and see how it works. Time for a new gun !!!! Giz ------------------ "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- artech Senior Member posted September 30, 1999 08:24 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As far as the stuff about AR15 barrels on the Bushmaster website goes, that is for chrome lined barrels only, and it says so in the text. I know because I'm the guy that wrote it. In our experience at the factory, barrels would get less fouling if they were fired 200 or so rounds before the first cleaning, then cleaned whenever the accuracy started to suffer. We recommended this on our lined barrels only, as the DCM rifles with unlined barrels we tried this on in testing didn't respond well to it. A "Foul Out" unit is probably the best bet for those, or any unlined barrel, and is handy for getting out fouling on lined barrels as well. Everyone should be aware that this is one area that is being driven by popular demmand right now, with little or no real research being done by anyone in the industry. Barrel break-in is rapidly becoming a popular myth, where some people will tell you straight out that no rifle will shoot if it's not "broken in" right. Well, that's just crap. Any barrel made well will shoot well unless it's neglected or abused, and that's just a simple fact. Any effect breaking in a barrel may have would probably have to be measured with a micrometer at the target, as the difference would be almost neglegible. I used to put it this way. Unless you are firing from a solid benchrest, with front and rear rests, handloaded match ammo made specifically for the barrel you are shooting, and firing single shots allowing the barrel to cool between each round, you won't be able to tell the difference anyway, so for crying out loud, go shoot your rifle! More time using it and less time playing with it, and you'll be a lot happier. Works on a lot of levels, if you get my meaning. That's my $.02, if it's of any use to anyone. Don't go nuts with breaking in rifle barrels, it's not worth the trouble. As always, IMHO, YMMV, etc... ------------------ With my shield or on it... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Long Path Moderator posted September 30, 1999 09:29 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With regard to break-in of factory barrels, I can offer this observation: In three brand-new rifles that I broke in over the last 3 years, (700, M-77 Mk II, M-70) I ran dry patches through each and found... shavings! No kidding! I was esp. shocked to find fresh stainless steel shavings down the bore of the Sendero! You can do what you want afterwards, but ALWAYS clean the bore thoroughly before that first shot out of a production rifle. You might also want to strip the action and carfully wipe the lugs, too. I just can't believe that steel shavings grinding down your bore with the force of your first group can be very good for your future accuracy! ------------------ Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? Matt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gale McMillan Senior Member posted September 30, 1999 10:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The metal shavings would have had to get in the barrel after it was test fired. The barrel was a hammer forged or buttoned barrel which is not machined and is very smooth finished. No one ever said not to clean a new rifle only that it is not necessary to break it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 HOME PAGE Shooters' FORUM Daily Bulletin Guns of the Week Articles Archive BLOG Archive Competition Info Varmint Pages 6BR Info Page 6BR Improved 20 CAL Info Page 223 Info Page 22BR Info Page 30BR Info Page 6PPC Info Page 6XC Info Page 243 Win Info Page 6.5-284 Info Page 308 Win Info Page FREE Targets Top Gunsmiths Tools & Gear Bullet Reviews Barrels Custom Actions Gun Stocks Scopes & Optics Vendor List Reader POLLS Event Calendar HELP PAGE > Contact Us > ADVERTISING How to Break-in a Barrel -- A Dissenting Point of View Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. Here he argues that elaborate barrel break-in procedures do more harm than good. Comments collected from Gale's Gun Forum postings. As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed {one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would. Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you. Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it. It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'. More from Gale McMillan: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp Support Our SPONSORS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Barrel break in 11 March 2004 By A poster on the site Texas Predator Posse -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've spent the last few months trying to get a better understanding of what a barrel break-in process is and how to properly clean a rifle. What to do and what not to do. I've spent a lot of time on this board, the BR board and other shooting boards listening to members and what works for them. Conclusion, what works for some, doesn't work for others. Being an engineer in the telecommunications field, when it's broke or you don't understand something you go back to manufactures specs and schematics. So that's kinda what I did on this subject. I've talked with 4 metallurgist and 3 barrel manufactures (Rock Creek, Hart and Shilen), on the subject. From a scientific point of view, they all said and agreed to pretty much the same thing. First, barrel break-in processes keep them in business. This shoot and clean, shoot and clean every round or few rounds break-in process only damages your brand new match barrel. Think of a car engine for a moment. Why do we use oil in the engine? To prevent metal-to-metal contact and reduce friction between two metal surfaces. Your barrel is no different from the engine. Mike Rock at Rock Creek barrels gave me the most detailed explanations on barrels and ballistics. Mike has his degree in metallurgy; he was also the chief ballistics engineer for the Army for many years at the Aberdeen Proving grounds. Stan Rivenbark was one of the top ballistic engineers for Raytheon before he retired in the 70's and also has a degree in metallurgy. I also talked with two local metallurgists here in North TX. I confirmed my findings with each person to see if they agreed or disagreed. Conclusion, they all agreed with each other's assessments. When Mike worked at Aberdeen proving grounds, the Army used high speed bore videos with mirrors, thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. When the primer ignites there is enough pressure to move the bullet forward into the lands. The bullet then stops. As the primer ignites the powder, more pressure builds moving the bullet forward where it can stop again. Once there is enough pressure from the round going off, the bullet is moved down out the barrel. All of this happens in nanoseconds (billionths of a second). Your bullet starts and stops at least twice and sometimes three times before it leaves the barrel. This is fact. If you clean every round or every few rounds during your barrel break-in process or clean your rifle so well after shooting that you take it down to the bare metal, you've created a metal-to-metal contact surface for the next time you shoot the gun. So what's the problem with this you ask? Just like your car engine, metal-to-metal contact will sheer away layers of metal from each surface. So if your bullet is starting and stopping two or three times as it leaves the barrel, that's two or three places for metal-to-metal contact to happen as well as the rest of your bore. The use of JB's and Flitz can and will take you down to metal-to-metal contact. For all intents and purposes, JB's and Flitz are not the most ideal products for cleaning your rifle. According to Mike Rock, and the other barrel manufactures agreed, all you need to avoid this metal-to-metal contact is a good burnish in the barrel. Shilen, Hart and Rock Creek will all void your barrel warranty if you shoot moly bullets and for good reason. This is not to say that moly is necessarily bad for a barrel, but it is when applied to bullets. There is no way possible to coat a bore with moly bullets. The bullet contact surface in the barrel is only so big. But when your round goes off, moly comes off the contact surface of the bullet in the throat area of the rifle and is bonded to the barrel due to the excessive heat and pressure. We're not talking coated or adhered to, we're talking bonded, d**n near permanent. With this, some of the jacket coating comes off the bullet. Follow this up with another round and you've now embedded the copper jacket between layers of bonded moly. This is the beginning of the black moly ring, which ruins countless barrels and is so hard; it can hardly be scraped off with a screwdriver's corner edge. This is what happened to a new Shilen SS select match barrel I had to have replaced with less than 400 rounds through it. I can't talk for Fastex as I don't or none of the folks I talked to knew enough about the product to comment on it. When I talked to Mike about my new barrel and the barrel break-in process, this is what he had to say. He first hand laps each barrel with a lead lap. He then uses two products from Sentry Solutions, a product called Smooth Coat, which is an alcohol and moly based product. He applies wet patches of Smooth Coats until the bore is good and saturated and lets it sit until the alcohol evaporates. The barrel now has loose moly in it. Next he uses a product called BP-2000, which is a very fine moly powder. Applied to a patch wrapped around a bore brush, he makes a hundred passes or so through the barrel very rapidly before having to rest. He repeats this process with fresh patches containing the moly powder a few more times. What he is doing is burnishing the barrel surface with moly and filling in any fine micro lines left by the hand lapping. He then uses a couple of clean patches to knock out any remaining moly left in the bore. With the barrel burnished with moly, this will prevent any metal-to-metal contact during the barrel break-in process. My instructions for barrel break-in were quite simple. Shoot 20 rounds (non-moly bullets) with no cleaning, as this will further burnish the barrel. Done! Now shoot and clean using your regular regimen of cleaning and if you have to use JB's or flitz type products, go very easy with them, or better yet avoid them. Never clean down to bare metal. He said most of the cleaning products do a great job, don't be afraid to use a brush and go easy on the ammonia-based products for removing copper fouling. Basically don't let the ammonia-based products remain in the barrel for long lengths of time. Well that's the long and skinny from the scientific point of view on the subject. If you're ever in doubt about the real condition of your barrel, take it to someone who has a bore scope and even better if someone has a bore scope that can magnify the view. You may be surprised at what is really going on in your barrel. I'm sure this will spark a debate here and there, but that's good thing. The more information we have, the better off we'll be. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back to Articles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 11-03-2007 Buckhead Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 47 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Depends what you mean by barrel break-in. When I bought my Tikka 30-06, I did not follow a break-in procedure as recommeded by some rifle and barrel makers. I cleaned the barrel when I got it home. Then I just bought a couple of boxes of ammo and went to sight-in the rifle. I put about 20 rounds thru it during the sight-in process, then I cleaned it. Then I worked up some handloads that shoot 0.8" at 100 m. Good enough. I continue to clean about every 20 rounds and at the end of the season when I know I am not going to use it for a while - I clean and oil it for storage. That's about all I've every done for any rifle and even my 30 year old .270 still keeps cranking out the 0.75 to 1" groups and it probably has about 3000 rounds thru it. Some barrel makers recommend a whole break-in process. It goes about like this: Shoot 1 round - clean. Do this for first 20 rounds. Shoot 2 rounds - clean. Do this for next 20 rounds. Then clean every 3 or 5 rounds for next 20 to 30 rounds depending on who's information you believe. I have never found all this supposed break-in and cleaning to make a darn bit of difference in hunting rifle. If one is spending 5 to 8K on a dedicated target rifle - then maybe. One thing I do know - never let your barrel get too hot, this will screw it up faster than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col48 Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 there is only one thing to say about this subject. Follow manufactures instructions. its so simple, because if you don't you have no come back. and do the same thing as you do in a new car, if its dirty clean it. ATB Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 So basically, at least half of the worlds shooting population are breaking in barrels, because someone gale mcmillan knew told them to.....yeh right. How many mcmillan barrels have the members of this board ever seen? i know of one in existance in the biggest shooting club in the north, and have never seen another.If barrels dont require breaking in, why does every barrel manufacturer of custom barrels, lead lap them? because they are basically smoothing them out before they are fired in doing so? If i had a quid for every barrel i,ve had to dig copper out of, that hadn,t been run in, or even cleaned properly, by customers, i wouldn,t be working now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 +1 Baldie No replacement for breaking proceedure - always done it and treated them right from the off. No regrets, will continue to do so even if barrels are "expendable" parts - they are still worth lookin after Thats my 2pennath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I collect military rifles, which bears only little on this subject except that I have many rifles from peace-time eras that were cleaned as a matter of discipline (inspections and pricky NONCOMs) rather than by actual need. There rifles often show more rod wear than those that saw combat. The Brits were the only ones with enough sense to NOT issue a cleaning rod with their rifles. Guns "cleaned in anger" will attract a lot of abuse, but any rod in the bore still has the potential for misery. I try to avoid it. Another thought that comes to me when I hear about how well a rifle shoots after a "break-in" is "How would it have shot otherwise??" To say that match and sniper rifles get "run in" so it must be good is a bit misleading. These were built as match and sniper rifles so we are talking about degrees of what should be inherent accuracy. To think that you shaved a particle of MOA from running a barrel in may be comforting but not necessarily the truth. The rifle may have been capable of that from the start. I do agree about heat and barrels. It's to be avoided. I shoot prairiedogs year round and I hear of folks who come out for the summer and shoot "1500 rounds a day" from a small battery of rifles and I cringe. We don't have that shooting gallery-style prairiedogging here where I live, but the idea of firing that many rounds in summer heat is appalling. If I get off three consecutive shots with my CZ I'm either missing or overly tempted. After that, the damned dog gets a Pass in favor of saving my barrel! ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 andrew + 1 baldie no flame mate but you should do a little googling and learn about gale macmillan and what he achieved and all the barrels he made and of them what one loads of comps, set records etc etc he has a lot to offer in his wisdom and first hand knowledge I dont think anyone here could match upto to the guy and I for one take my hat off and bow to the legend for all he achieved RIP MR MAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 No offence taken buddy, we are having a conversation, just like we would sat across a bar table with a pint. Gale mcmillan did and wrote many great things, this is true, and i have a lot of it in print myself. I dont however think he did any more or less than his top shooting compatriots of the same era, he just happened to own a barrel, and rifle company, and personally, when someone who makes barrels tells people not to run them in, or clean them properly, i smell a rat....imagine how many more barrels he sold off the back of that one. I tend to take most of what is written with a large pinch of salt these days, and rely mostly on my own personal experience...i have to when selling , or building a gun, or advising a customer whats best for him, or his rifle, because i know its worked for me, and i,m not telling him anything that will jeopardise his rifles accuracy, and we havent had one back yet that wouldn,t shoot. Every one seem s to take what benchrest shooters say as gospel.... it shouldn,t be so, they change their minds as often as their socks. Infact the only two issues they have stuck to over the years, is proper barrel break in, and non use of moly.I dont know any br shooter who doesn,t break in, or clean after, and inbetween a match, and look how their guns shoot. Its a fact that a severly fouled barrel is dangerous, it raises chamber pressures considerably, especially in a benchrest gun, as their chambers are so tight. Regarding sniper rifles Andrew, i dont know about american ww11 sniper rifles, but british, german and russian ones, were picked from the shooting line, as showing greater accurate potential, than the rest, they were taken aside [and bedded in american guns] and given a little tlc and fitted with scopes, they certainly werent built specially....its a little different now of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 he does say however to clean it as often as you can say every five rounds or when you finish shooting for example and has never suggested just leaving it he just doesnt agree with the break in On receipt of my new border I clean it to make sure its clean then fired one round after I noticed that copper had turned to plasma and coated the entire bore and the entire inside was a glow with bright matt copper and was a bitch to clean so about 1 &1/5 hrs later I fired round number two and went home to clean went out again to fire round three and same that which promotes growth and vigour plasma'd right up so thought spiral staircase this that which promotes growth and vigour practice what you preach and all that and went ahead and fired round four right over the top of round three got off the stool and walk to the end of the bbl (its a long walk in a plasters stock and 32" 32mm bbl) gingerly looked down the end not knowing what to expect and wow spiral staircase me the fourth round had blown all the plasma out and left a clean bore its been shooting like that ever since and would lay £100 on it that if I had fired the first round, seen the plasma and just fired the second over it the same story would have been said since it was the third round's plasma that I left in bore and the fourth shot it out mr mac recomends to clean rifles more than I do though my parker hale doesnt grow copper in the bore not even after 50 rounds and the aim of a lot of guys in breaking in their rifles is to get their rifles to a state where they dont fowl so I cant understand it when if their rifle doesnt fowl why the spiral staircase they clean it after only a few rounds if it aint fowling then nothing is building up so it would be good to go for a couple of twenties right??? if my parker is looking a little carbon'd after twenty I put the bore guide in and use a snake, gets it out no probs and have checked this by snaking and then using copper/carbon solvent on the return to home and this has come out clean, no blue or black some guns I have or have had wont group until a few fowlers have been blast down JB paste is some thing like 800 to 1000 grit and is said to be courser than the lapping final finish so I cant understand its use in a hand lapped bbl when a bbl maker hand laps a bbl they take a lead cast of that actual bore so the cast fits snug in lands and bore so when the lap both surfaces are polished at even % when someone uses a patch on a rod and jb then 70% or more wear is put on the all important lands and its sharp edges so this I think is crazy I have hand lapped a few of my guns and this has been an easy process really and has meant far less wear on the lands, after all its mainly the grooves that get fouling in them and is tha hardest to clean the reason these are the hardest is because your ROUND JAG is a tight fit on the LANDS and not in the grooves, thats why they take longer to clean place bore guide in gun find a brass washer that a very close fit to your bbl bore and place it over the threaded end of your cleaning rod the washer ensures that lead does not spill down past itself and the washer holds the rod in the centre of the bore insert rod into bore with bbl pointing up in the air and stop the washer end about two inches before muzzle exit and tape the handle end to the action so it stays put now melt a little GOOD quality lead and very carefull pour lead into bbl ( it will fill quickly so be very very carefull AND WEAR ALL THE RIGHT PROTECTIVE GEAR LIKE APRON GLOVES GOGGLES ETC ETC ETC SPATS, GAITERS OR WHAT ever the spiral staircase you wanna call em BUT WEAR THEM it will set in a few seconds but leave it for a min or so now turn rod at handle end after un doing the that which promotes growth and vigour you put on their and turn a few turns to undo, now push and cast will start to come up un do a few more and push, once say 80% is showing you can un do and extract rod and gently pull cast allowing it to twist with the rifling remove washer from rod and now you have a casting of your bore that you can screw on/off and hand lap your rough factory bore with doing absolute minimal damaged to your lands a bore does not want to be too polished as this causes other problems solvo auto sol is a good compound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 The temperature at which plasma is formed will cut straight through steel, barrels included. I would go with vapourised copper and copper smearing no problem. A copper or aluminium cone is used to concentrate the heat of special explosive charges to pop holes in tanks and such and will easily slice through 30 inches of armour plate. Not a place you would want to be at that moment! Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 I believe one friend of McMillan's could start this thing up- especially if he was an influential barrel maker. I have been a student of the American firearms business since I was a kid, literally, and shooters are graspy, gullible types that will latch on to someone else's methods if they think that they too will have success. A simple example?? How often do you see a request for a "good load" for a .223, or 243, or any other cartridge? We all know that my best .223 load will not necessarily be your best .223 load; Yet the question gets asked a thousand times a day on the Internet. Moly-coated bullets, any one?? It's hard to find anyone shooting them here now, but for a while they were the rage. When I shot 500M Metallic Silhouette competition I shot with the US National Champion (we worked at the same gunshop) and one time she showed up with a cardboard tube taped around the muzzle of her Model 700 Remington. At that match she shot 38 out of 40 targets off hand with her .308. Her arrangement drew much attention after the match. The following month, two AA-Class shooters had them to match hers. Half way through the match, after she had just cleaned all 10 of the 300M targets, she pulled off the cardboard tube, looked at the guys watching, and said, "I was just kidding!" and proceeded to shoot another record score. The next match she showed up with a small blue "Smurf" doll straddling her scope. In that match she shot a perfect score on the 500M targets. No one took up that technique, much to my surprise. ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentsoulsleave308holes Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 redfox I use plasma cutters everyday so I know what you mean I used that term because its what I have read and others have so they could relate to it its a bit like the seating into the lands things, every body says it and believes it but in truth their barrel is made of steel similar to the the dies used and so when they seat past touching depth it is impossible for the soft minor part of the brass case, the neck, to fight a battle with the harder steel and push the bullet into the steel in truth what happens, as you and I know, is the round gets pushed back into the case because the softer metal allows this but try telling people that and they dont belive it because they dont wanna like andrew says people will ask " is this round seated into the lands, or how far are you seating into the lands" and its easier to give them an answer they understand or want to hear when you read about the copper dusting everybody calls it plasma.......the dust probs comes from the filing affect a new sharp bore can have on a round causing dust like if were filed and the heat generated from burning gasses brazes it to the surface?????????????what do ya think??????? since it gets coated evenly it must have mixed with the burning gasses as the burning gasses would fill the entire bore before bullet leaves and this would explain the even coating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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