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Time for A Stolen Valour Act in UK?


brown dog

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Nick, shaping people's thinking on walts in and around the guntrade is my aim.

(Well, that and wishing walting in general repulsed the UK public!)

 

So, not a one man crusade to name and shame.

 

A desire to get people to be a little more interrogative. If someone implies something to you, ask them specifics.

 

Eg 'sniper' claims - ask them directly which battalion they served in as a sniper. Persist. They brought the topic up. If you get a general answer like 'para' or 'infantry' ask again -which battalion?

 

Remember, they brought it up -there's no need to be embarrassed, and there's no reason for them to give inexact answers.

 

If you're not clued up on military units just ask directly - was that TA or regular? Again, they brought the topic up.

 

 

 

If you get waffle about deserts or ops then ask them which op and when. All UK ops have a name. If they are inexact, remember they brought the topic up. Persist.

 

Gauge the age of the person or when they left. If you're getting desert stories, does it match when they claim to have been doing stuff? ie if you're talking to someone of cold-war vintage, if they're not talking about Gulf 1, then what the hell are they talking about?!

 

 

 

 

If someone starts talking as though they have a 'background' press pause on the conversation; and ask directly:

 

"it sounds like you were a [whatever they're implying], were you?"

 

then which Bn etc

 

 

 

 

 

If they're implying special forces stuff, press pause (remember, they brought the topic up) just say

 

"it sounds as though you were SAS/SBS, were you?"

 

If that gets a waffly answer, remember they brought the subject up.

 

 

Take it to the next level if you get ambiguous answers about weird stuff that you don't understand

 

"OK but the unit you were in was a special forces unit was it? I mean, you got special forces pay in that unit did you?"

 

 

 

If anyone brings this sort of thing up, and then goes vague when questioned, don't be dazzled by thoughts of OPSEC -remember they brought the topic up.

 

 

 

Challenge them! Stop tolerating walters! Ask precise questions. If they waffle, re-frame it. Persist.

 

If they brought up a military claim, or start talking about popping rag heads or whatever and then can't tell you the unit (eg not just "Para", but the company and the battalion) and the op (eg Telic 6, Granby etc), and start implying 'special' stuff but keep avoiding being specific, then they're probably lying - ask direct questions, never take an implied story.

 

Pin them down to stating the facts and, if they're bullshitting, force them to lie outright and not just through inference.

 

Bottom line; if someone brings this sort of stuff up or starts implying stuff, but then goes waffly when asked about specifics, then they're probably lying. Keep your money in your pocket.

 

The simple direct solution is to politely ask:

 

"It sounds like you're saying you were..[xxx] ..were you?"

 

Brown Dog.

Fair enough.I take on board what you say.

Only time i have come across this is with a couple of lads i used to shoot with. I am reasonably well read in Military History and a few of the things they said did not add up.

Nick.

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You caught me out. There aren't any. Good catch.

 

I have been following this thread and understandably BD you feel strongly about this, but your answer here lost me.

 

Wouldn't it have been better to say "I am not naming anybody" if that is what your answer actually means?

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Eldon,

 

We should all feel strongly about this.

 

Anyone who purports to support UK Forces should be outraged that people steal the reputation and status of those who've earned it.

 

 

As regards the post; Was attempting a spot of irony in response to a question in the preceding post that seemed to have rather missed the points made during the preceding 2 pages:

 

-clearly stated that this was not a one man name and shame campaign.

 

- clearly stated this is about getting people to stop tolerating walts (in and around the UK gun trade).

 

Coupled with that, I simply don't have the energy or desire to deal with the logic: "I haven't noticed any, therefore there are none".

 

Soo....being ironic :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

To remind what the thread is about; boringly quoting myself:

It's bizarre how many civvies seem to wonder what all the fuss is about.

 

In the US the general public virtually tar and feather exposed Walts.

 

It's correctly seen as an 'honour' thing and a direct insult to the 'real deal'.

 

If someone in the US gun trade was exposed as a walt; he'd not only get no trade, but he'd be prosecuted.

 

Over here it seems to be: 'Whatever, he makes nice kit'.

Where's the honour in that view?!

It boils down to, at the test, not actually giving two genuine sh'ts for the UK military.

 

People will read this and yet, fully cognisant of the walting I've described, still do business with people stealing the reputation and status of people who've earned it.

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Agree entirely about the difference between national attitudes to men in uniform - when I read recently in the Telegraph that there was a problem with our military personnel being abused in public I didn't believe it! Seemed ludicrous... As it is, I suspect the "problem" is grossly exaggerated by the MSM - so nothing new there, then.

As for this "stolen valour" idea it seems to me a mountain built out of a molehill. History and literature show it's an ages-old phenomenon - think of Falstaff, or the buffoons in Twelfth Night... My father and most of my uncles served in WW2, grandfathers were both in the trenches of WW1 (my wife's father, grandfather & uncles were in the Wehrmacht or the Hitler Jugend...) and I never heard any of them talk much about their wars - and they certainly never mentioned "stolen valour". If the subject ever came up I'm 100% certain they would have smiled wryly and dismissed it as trivial, nothing at all to bother about.

I only found out last year that one of my father's brothers won the MM for single-handedly taking out a Panther tank** after Normandy - nobody had ever bothered to tell me! That's what that generation were like. I think they had it right. We don't need any "stolen valour" legislation - we have too many laws already.

Tony

**If anyone wants to check this it's in the regimental records of the KSLI - he was CSM Eddie Harrison (3rd battalion IIRC) - and they referred to it as "Harrison's Panther" after he attacked it at very close range with a PIAT, almost destroyed himself as well as the tank...

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Tony,

 

Not an unexpected view! :rolleyes::)

 

Take your point on the wry smile; but it would depend entirely on context.

 

To take it away from a guntrade example but keep it on selling the image:

 

Imagine you've decided to buy a couple of day's corporate leadership training for your staff.

Thousands of pounds of expenditure.

You decide to go with a company that leans on the credentials of its director as being an SF ninjitsu basket weaver and the first man to go through the breach at whatever.

You buy into 'him'; his experience.

 

Course delivered.

Thousands paid.

 

Then months later you find out he was actually a chef who never deployed outside Bulford.

 

Wry smile now?

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....Imagine you've decided to buy a couple of day's corporate leadership training for your staff.

Thousand pounds of expenditure.

You decide to go with a company that leans on the credentials of its director as being an SF ninjitsu basket weaver and the first man to go through the breach at whatever.

You buy into 'him'; his experience.

 

Course delivered.

Thousands paid.

 

Then months later you find out he was actually a chef who never deployed outside Bulford.

 

Wry smile now?

And in turn I take your point Matt - but that sounds to me like a straightforward case of the kind of deception that is actionable already, a civil case even if it doesn't amount to criminal intent to deceive, or whatever the legal wording is. No need for "stolen valour". Those gunsmiths you mention, and whom i don't know, are surely just buffoons? If their tall tales are objectionable, don't do business with them. Word gets around....

Tony

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And in turn I take your point Matt - but that sounds to me like a straightforward case of the kind of deception that is actionable already, a civil case even if it doesn't amount to criminal intent to deceive, or whatever the legal wording is. No need for "stolen valour". Those gunsmiths you mention, and whom i don't know, are surely just buffoons? If their tall tales are objectionable, don't do business with them. Word gets around....

Tony

 

That's rather my point - it doesn't get around because people want to believe these buffoons mis-describing or inventing their military pedigree:

 

 

Here's a non-actionable analogy:

 

You want to buy some climbing kit.

 

Do you buy it from the shop that is staffed by a young lad who grew up in the town and joined the shop straight from school

or

Do you buy it from the other shop in the town where the bloke tells tales of derring do about his time in the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre and the time he almost summitted on Everest.

 

Well it's the fellow with the cool mountain experience that gets the trade.

 

But months later you find out he was actually a detachment commander on a ptarmigan node and gets nose bleeds when he goes up a flight of stairs.

 

 

There's nothing actionable there; that's just walting not fraud - but his fake 'cool' got your money.

 

Wry smile?!

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You gotta watch them chef,s.....some of them are injured mercenaries tha knows.... ;)

 

 

 

Not a normal chef then.

 

A "combat" chef.

 

That must be like an SF chef. :o

 

Cool.

 

:lol:

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Must admit the last sloppo I had dealings with in the mob had definitely killed more people than hereford and SB put together. His chicken crumble was legendary! interesting posts mind as I have also come across quite a few ex "SF" in the shooting world.

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Not a normal chef then.

 

A "combat" chef.

 

That must be like an SF chef. :o

 

Cool.

 

:lol:

 

Hmmm. Combat chefs eh!

Well I think that I actually met one way back on HMS Grenville (F197) in 1968 to 1970.

He was a Leading Chef / part time trained killer and a Jock. He was the most dangerous psycopath I ever met in my life. One look at him (in the wrong way) would mean a sudden assault and a punch. Remember there was no 'Respect at Work' or anything like that back then.

He had a go at me (young, innocent, skinny and 17 years old) and said after giving me a punch in the guts after (looking at him in the wrong way) that people can vanish at sea so no evidence of anything if you get my drift.

He scared the sh*t out of me and he ended up getting Syphillis in Singapore and was drafted from the ship.

God I was jumping with joy when he left as well as half the ships company.

So Combat Chef is a good title and an accurate one regarding him.

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That's rather my point - it doesn't get around because people want to believe these buffoons mis-describing or inventing their military pedigree:

 

 

Here's a non-actionable analogy:

 

You want to buy some climbing kit.

 

Do you buy it from the shop that is staffed by a young lad who grew up in the town and joined the shop straight from school

or

Do you buy it from the other shop in the town where the bloke tells tales of derring do about his time in the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre and the time he almost summitted on Everest.

 

Well it's the fellow with the cool mountain experience that gets the trade.

 

But months later you find out he was actually a detachment commander on a ptarmigan node and gets nose bleeds when he goes up a flight of stairs.

 

 

There's nothing actionable there; that's just walting not fraud - but his fake 'cool' got your money.

No, sorry, doesn't even begin to persuade me! What you describe is just an everyday situation where you judge people on their credibility, among other things. "Buyer beware" always applies, and when people claim to have an exciting or glamorous past, others tend to become extra careful. It really doesn't sound like the sort of thing that requires special legislation! It's pretty trivial.

And I think most people can see through blatant bull**it. Years ago, I and a few friends in an angling society knew a fellow member who was a fantasist: he was just some bloke from Kent but felt he had to pretend to be an Aussie, complete with one of those waxed cotton drover's coats and a ridiculous accent. He once called on a friend of mine and proceeded to spin a line about how he'd been with Aussie SF in Vietnam and was captured & tortured by the Vietcong - my friend and his wife had to take turns leaving the room so they could have a good laugh in the back garden...

Still think this is mountain & molehill country.

Tony

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The making money from a non existant or exagerated career in the forces is particularly disagreeable but unfortunately the bull$h!t spans nearly every trade and i suspect the genuine professionals all roll their eyes to the walts that lurk among them.

I have come across a guy who has sat in front of me after only a few weeks after passing his PADI open water diving exam (very basic level) telling me how he has just got back from mexico after rescuing potholers from a flooded cave !! the same guy passed his private pilots license (impressive enough in its own right) but still had to tell me that he was now a commercial pilot delivering stuff all over the world and outrageously said that he had to deliver typhoons to afghanistan !!!.

Thinking back, i have also been guilty of it too, when after reading the book Chickenhawk my mates and i tried to pass ourselves off as helicopter pilots when in cyprus, hoping to get our leg over some rather impressed local girls (unsuccessfuly).

My point is that if you legislate against military walts, you could find that other risky trades or services decide that they also should be covered by it and where does it stop ?

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The point is, people who create their own persona on the back of a military (non existant) career are all around, not just in the firearms trade, they should be shown for what they are and treated with the contempt they deserve.

 

 

No place for this in our society, and its just as relevant now as it was since military service began.

 

 

Bravery and honour are earned, not dreamed of.

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The making money from a non existant or exagerated career in the forces is particularly disagreeable but unfortunately the bull$h!t spans nearly every trade and i suspect the genuine professionals all roll their eyes to the walts that lurk among them.

I have come across a guy who has sat in front of me after only a few weeks after passing his PADI open water diving

exam (very basic level) telling me how he has just got back from mexico after rescuing potholers from a flooded cave !! the same guy passed his private pilots license (impressive enough in its own right) but still had to tell me that he was now a commercial pilot delivering stuff all over the world and outrageously said that he had to deliver typhoons to afghanistan !!!.

Thinking back, i have also been guilty of it too, when after reading the book Chickenhawk my mates and i tried to pass ourselves off as helicopter pilots when in cyprus, hoping to get our leg over some rather impressed local girls (unsuccessfuly).

My point is that if you legislate against military walts, you could find that other risky trades or services decide that they

also should be covered by it and where does it stop ?

 

 

 

 

Danno,

Like you I have pretended to have a profession that I have not to try and chat women up. Although mine was a medical profession, I told them that I was a gynacologist.

Strangely it didnt seem to work though.

I do know one fella at home though who tells everyone hes been to afghan and this and that of having to go back soon etc. although I have. Ot yet proved he hasnt, I also have heard a few people sayingthe same about him so hes going to be found out sooner or later.

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Well, for chat-up, I used to be a fridge salesman. One of my pals used to be a biscuit designer: "Custard cream, that's one of mine".

 

Funny, whilst doing the job walts pretend, we pretended the most crushingly dull jobs we could think of.

 

 

I'll always think there's a significant difference between stealing the reflected glory of some fellows who've died, lost body parts, or lost friends in a life of Service to their fellow countrymen; and someone pretending to be an airline pilot.

To me, people seeing them as the same thing is exactly part of the problem.

 

Yes there are the laughably obvious ones, but there are those who are not spotted by Joe Public; and there are several attracting business by their stealing of honour.

 

I've got one civvy pal who I've noticed reading this who I have no doubt is thinking 'what's all the fuss about, it's business'; but it isn't just business. It's honour at it's deepest level.

 

A lot of the people in this thread are aware of the ID of the 'pathfinder sniper' who wasn't; yet when it came up before, the groundswell opinion was 'whatever, I like what he makes'.

No honour on either side of that.

 

It's not the same as claiming custard creams :)

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Well, for chat-up, I used to be a fridge salesman. One of my pals used to be a biscuit designer: "Custard cream, that's one of mine".

 

Several "Dolphin Trainers" around too and if in Vegas a "team of international window cleaners". Never worked!

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Just jogged another memory - all putting on South African accents for a whole weekend and going for the sympathy vote pretending to be moneyed students kicked out by the regime.

That was a suitably mad weekend- we crashed and burned at a nurse's party when one of my pals drunkenly wandered back to his normal accent.

Whole party went a little bit 'tense' when they realised we were fake political refugees.

From mass sympathy to mass hatred in the blink of an eye :lol: - Quick exit!

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Just jogged another memory - all putting on South African accents for a whole weekend and going for the sympathy vote pretending to be moneyed students kicked out by the regime. That was a suitably mad weekend- we crashed and burned at a nurse's party when one of my pals drunkenly wandered back to his normal accent. Whole party went a little bit 'tense' when they realised we were fake political refugees. From mass sympathy to mass hatred in the blink of an eye :lol: - Quick exit!

 

BD you crashed and burned at a nurse’s party!! Now that really does impress. Almost medal worthy. :lol:;)

 

ATB

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Here's a non-actionable analogy:

 

You want to buy some climbing kit.

 

Do you buy it from the shop that is staffed by a young lad who grew up in the town and joined the shop straight from school

or

Do you buy it from the other shop in the town where the bloke tells tales of derring do about his time in the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre and the time he almost summitted on Everest.

 

Well it's the fellow with the cool mountain experience that gets the trade.

 

But months later you find out he was actually a detachment commander on a ptarmigan node and gets nose bleeds when he goes up a flight of stairs.

 

I always spoke to the youngsters when I was buying my climbing kit, they were passionate about the subject, knew the latest developments in the gear, could offer alternatives and most importantly usually climbed to a good level albeit on the local climbing wall. Occasionally one would show up at the local Edge a couple of years later to demonstrate excellent technical competence and style. The problem was they also lived on nuts and orange juice and abstained from sex which meant they were bloody hard to out climb :P

 

Back on track for a moment. Imagine you are a trained marksman in the Police and you have to take a shot one day that results in the death of a crim under dubious circumstances. Come the day of the inquest you stand up and state you training and what you are qualified to do and a person sitting opposite points out that the out sourced ex SF/Sniper who took you through some of your stages is actually a well read ex delivery driver that enjoys shooting...

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Back on track for a moment. Imagine you are a trained marksman in the Police and you have to take a shot one day that results in the death of a crim under dubious circumstances. Come the day of the inquest you stand up and state you training and what you are qualified to do and a person sitting opposite points out that the out sourced ex SF/Sniper who took you through some of your stages is actually a well read ex delivery driver that enjoys shooting...

 

Hit the nail on the head!

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