Time for A Stolen Valour Act in UK?

[Dan534]

Interesting thread, read and agreed.

 

As a highly trained engineer in RAF and after numerous operational tours drinking tea and eating biscuits in the Falklands I have signed the petition.

[dannyt]

Iam one of the people who dont care ,and dont listen but should .

 

I might just have the best story which follows this theme .

 

A few years back my mum and dad along with my older brother live in a town in soth humberside ,and had a gun shop.

 

This had its fair share or strange peaple licking the windows from time to time ,none more strange than the fella who lived across the street.

 

An ex CIA /NASA fly boy with a national USA medal list that looked like Gadaffy Ducks battle dress ,all the right clothes and gear to back it up from were i cant say.

 

Any way this fella was a top notch b******ter,with bigger storys than the bible.

 

When arrested trying to leave this fairminded country of ours it turns out he had got of death row in the USA on a technicality.

 

And done a bunk as you do.

 

The police found over 3000 rounds of ammo in his house he should not have along with 200 guns not on his ticket.

 

Had killed a few people in Texas ,Oh and they made a film based on his deeds called the Texas chain saw thingy.

 

ERR what else , Oh the History channel made a film on him for sky telly. His wife in the Uk had done a bunk when he moved a band saw into the kitchen after a few days of fighting .

 

OH theres just to much stuff to write down. His name was BOB CLEASON so google him if you want to find all the details.

 

Any way what iam am saying is your better off knowing who nutters who live in lala land are than not

 

 

Some storys you just cant make up.

[Ronin]

Saw a documentary about that chap Danny.....

[dannyt]

Saw a documentary about that chap Danny.....

 

 

Strange thing is Andy .

 

This bloke fitted in with the locals :lol:

[baldie]

What do expect in south humberside Danny ? They still think they are part of Gods own county....Yorkshire....

[brown dog]

The laughable thing is to be a sniper you don't have to be that good a shot, it is more about the field craft and patiance. My last Boss, still a serving officer but was a Cpl in the Falklands and is both Para and Commando trained (as I know many of brown dogs cohorts are) and TBH Walt hunting was one of his favourite passtimes!

 

Dave

 

Yup, it's bizarre how many civvies seem to wonder what all the fuss is about.

 

In the US the general public virtually tar and feather exposed Walts.

 

It's correctly seen as an 'honour' thing and a direct insult to the 'real deal'.

 

If someone in the US gun trade was exposed as a walt; he'd not only get no trade, but he'd be prosecuted.

 

Over here it seems to be: 'Whatever, he makes nice kit'.

Where's the honour in that view?!

It boils down to, at the test, not actually giving two genuine sh'ts for the UK military.

 

People will read this and yet, fully cognisant of the walting I've described, still do business with people stealing the reputation and status of people who've earned it. It's just beggars belief. A disgrace.

[That bald headed Geordie]

I use the simple adage of those who do the most talking about their 'special secret activities' are the Billy B*llsh*tters.

The 'real deal' are very few and far between in real life and I presume that they do not talk about stuff as one particular individual that I know does on a regular basis (SAS stuff to be specific) and I find it amusing but I just switch off and can smell the bull a mile off.

There is one way that will confirm their 'activities' and that is get them to bring their service records. That will show which units/bases/ships and also their job title (Cook/Electrician/Radio Op) etc. I still have mine after leaving 38 years ago and most ex services will probably have them somewhere.

 

PS - DO NOT ASK ME ABOUT MY TIME AT THE TOP SECRET LUXURIOUS UNDERGROUND COMMUNICATIONS NATO HEADQUARTERS IN NORTHWOOD (HMS WARRIOR) WHICH IS SITUATED ABOUT A MILE NORTH EAST FROM NORTHWOOD/MIDDLESEX UNDERGROUND STATION. OR I WILL KIIIIIIIIILLLLLLL YOU WITH ONE FINGER. SO THERE!!!!!

[brown dog]

Yup. Thing is though, if you're Forces or ex-Forces with some time under you're belt, it's hard to bullsh't a bullsh'tter.

 

I sniff walts a mile off; there's always something that doesn't 'chime'; something that doesn't sound quite right - and that sense only comes from having served. I find walts may as well put a traffic cone on their heads and wear bibs saying 'walt' they're that obvious.

 

Joe Never-Served has no such antennae and just laps it up. A lot of people seem to want to believe. I've heard all 3 of the people in my mind in this thread being described by civvies as former SF. None of them are.

Whether the perception exists because its been directly claimed, or because its been deduced by an excited civvy who's put together a sexed-up trade title or a few 'hard routine' mutterings with a few 'I've said too much already' lines to do a 2 + 2 = 5 I don't know; but a lot of this stuff seems to happen by inference rather than statement. After all, I suppose we do have fraud laws even if we lack a Stolen Valour Act.

 

 

I'm just disgusted by how, even when it's pointed out, people seem to accept them and crack on. Where's the honour?

 

As earlier, it's bizarre how many civvies seem to wonder what all the fuss is about. People will read this and yet, fully cognisant of the walting described,

still do business with people stealing the reputation and status of people who've earned it.

 

Right, time for a decaf I think

[brown dog]

Danger?

 

I've never done anything more dangerous than open a Norwegian container in the back of a moving 4 tonner whilst terribly, terribly drunk.

 

 

 

What have done I about the Stolen Valour Act? (It's not my petition; it'd be properly written if it was )

 

I've:

 

Signed the petition.

Publicised the petition.

Asked others to sign the petition.

 

You signed it yet?

 

 

 

This thread has had 643 views. In that time the petition has grown by 7 signatures.

People can't even be arsed to support UK Forces by signing a petition against pretenders.

How difficult is it?

 

You signed it yet?

[achosenman]

BD the trouble is I dont think its enforceable. What someone believed was implied is almost impossible to prove in court...unless the Walt is wearing gongs at a parade or puts it in writing.

 

I agree with you regarding spotting walts they do stand out a mile to genuine ex service personnel. Maybe not right away but they say or do something that a pukka ex wouldnt. I did notice you called it a Norwegian, it was called a tea bomb in my lot so perhaps even that isnt foolproof.

 

ATB

[brown dog]

I did notice you called it a “Norwegian”, it was called a “tea bomb” in my lot so perhaps even that isn’t foolproof.

 

ATB

 

Arctic trained .......

 

 

You're right on the 'in writing' bit of course. But this'd be something where there's now nothing - and at least it'd be a shot across the bow to walt fraudsters that the National intent is serious on this.

[achosenman]

 

But this'd be something where there's now nothing - and at least it'd be a shot across the bow to walt fraudsters that the National intent is serious on this.

 

Yep you're right, now signed.

 

ATB

[SteveW]

Yep you're right, now signed.

 

ATB

 

+1

[ratty]

Danger?

 

I've never done anything more dangerous than open a Norwegian container in the back of a moving 4 tonner whilst terribly, terribly drunk.

 

 

 

What have done I about the Stolen Valour Act? (It's not my petition; it'd be properly written if it was )

 

I've:

 

Signed the petition.

Publicised the petition.

Asked others to sign the petition.

 

You signed it yet?

 

 

This thread has had 643 views. In that time the petition has grown by 7 signatures.

People can't even be arsed to support UK Forces by signing a petition against pretenders.

How difficult is it?

 

You signed it yet?

 

This has been covered before :-

 

Topic: E Petition Stolen Honour Posted By: ranroz

Subject: E Petition Stolen Honour

Date Posted: 10 August 2010 at 7:48pm

At the end of 2009 there was a man on parade with medals that he had not WON.

A person made a E Petition up to change the Law.

This is that Petition it has been given a responce as it fell within the critera of the new Government

 

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to pass a new law making it illegal to impersonate, misrepresent, or falsify connections (past or present) with HM Forces including the wearing of uniforms complete or in part and the adorning of medals awarded either for campaign service, long service and services of distinction for which they are not entitled. Further to this and in particular, we would request that the government consider making it a criminal offence for those who aspire to make personal or corporate financial gain from such acts of fraudulent deceit.

 

This petition is aimed at making it illegal for any individual to impersonate, misrepresent, or falsify connections (past or present) with HM Forces including the wearing of medals awarded either for campaign service, long service and services of distinction. Further to this, we would request that the government consider making it a criminal offence for those who aspire to make personal or corporate financial gain from such actions. For example, posing as an authority in military matters were clearly no formal qualifications exist, or writing books where the author has clearly misrepresented themselves (lied) this should be seen as gaining pecuniary advantage by misrepresentation and consequently punishable by law. The only exception to this would be for theatrical, re-enactment and entertainment purposes (this would come under the same law that currently exists covering police and other officially recognised uniforms) This petition is dedicated to all those servicemen and women who have served their country within HM forces and in particular, the fallen.

 

This is the

Government response

 

The Government takes these issues very seriously. Making, or attempting to make a financial gain by fraudulently wearing uniform or medals, or by pretending to be or have been in the armed forces or to have been awarded a medal, is already a criminal offence of fraud under the Fraud Act 2006. The offence carries a maximum penalty of 10 years’ imprisonment. It is also an offence under that Act (carrying up to five years’ imprisonment) for a person to possess or have under his control any article for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud.

 

The unauthorised wearing of Service uniform or the wearing of uniform in a manner that is likely to bring contempt on that uniform, are also criminal offences under the Uniforms Act 1894, and may be punished by a fine or imprisonment. Any serving member of the armed forces who falsely claimed an entitlement to an honour would also be at risk of prosecution under the Armed Forces Act 2006.

http://www.hmg.gov.uk/epetition-responses/petition-view.aspx?epref=Stolen-honour'>http://www.hmg.gov.uk/epetition-responses/petition-view.aspx?epref=Stolen-honour - http://www.hmg.gov.uk/epetition-responses/petition-view.aspx?epref=Stolen-honour

 

It is already an offence, but SOMEONE NEEDS TO MAKE A COMPLAINT FOR IT TO BE ACTED UPON if you have been wronged or conned or disadvantaged by someone committing these offences then make a complaint to the authorities.

 

I have no time or sympathy for any con artist or walt, whether they impersonate a serviceman, doctor, gas man or plumber but we are already plagued by enough laws, lets use the ones already in place.

 

More laws are not the answer, we as shooters should know this well enough, use the existing laws and if they are found to be ineffective lobby to change them not just create more ineffective legislation.

 

No offence is meant to anyone, the above views are mine, I have never served but my Father has (he will not discuss his service, at all!) I hate frauds in all walks of life, but when it comes to calling for evermore legislation, be careful of what you wish for.

 

Nigel

[brown dog]

Nigel,

 

I have to say, the quoted petition is a far higher quality document.

 

The response and your view?

 

Fraud is not the same thing as 'Stolen Honour'.

 

That means only walts proven to be trying to make money out of their walting are on the wrong side of the Law.

 

I imagine that would an extremely hard conviction to secure as that's often going to be about attempting to prove someone's intent rather than what they did (ie trying to prove why you think they were walting, rather than the fact that they were walting).

 

A clear cut Law making the 'stealing of honour/valour' would be more realistically enforceable.

 

ie Claim a military background that isn't true = law broken.

 

Not sure how such a Law could be considered a libertarian threat though .

 

Meanwhile; the current petition is clearly a weak double tap. Thanks for the info.

[NICK]

There are several people trading in the UK gun trade who claim to be ex snipers, and one t wat who is still telling people he,s an injured mercenary....he,s just a p rick.

 

People know who these cretins are, so why are they putting money in their pockets ?

 

Instead of bigging them up, and perpetuating the myth....out the cowards, then put your money into genuine soldiers charities, and buy your local squaddy a beer when you see them in the pub on leave.

 

Baldie.

I have had an FAC for 27 years and i have no idea who these people are mate. Maybe i live a sheltered life? We have three pages of talk and i am still no wiser.

 

Brown Dog.

You are in a unique position, you own the Forum? if so tell us who these people are. You surely cannot get Sued for stating facts and any Walter will not get involved in that sort of thing as they will be exposed. I do not want to spend my money with these people but i need to know who they are in order to do that.

 

Nick.

[22-250jock]

signed BD,

 

cheers jock

[Ronin]

Signed the petition and was aware of the current law regarding fraud.

 

 

The people maing a living out of claimed heroic deeds / military service whould be ousted imho...

[Gunsgobang88]

Signed,

 

Alan

[That bald headed Geordie]

Signed

[brown dog]

Nick, shaping people's thinking on walts in and around the guntrade is my aim.

(Well, that and wishing walting in general repulsed the UK public!)

 

So, not a one man crusade to name and shame.

 

A desire to get people to be a little more interrogative. If someone implies something to you, ask them specifics.

 

Eg 'sniper' claims - ask them directly which battalion they served in as a sniper. Persist. They brought the topic up. If you get a general answer like 'para' or 'infantry' ask again -which battalion?

 

Remember, they brought it up -there's no need to be embarrassed, and there's no reason for them to give inexact answers.

 

If you're not clued up on military units just ask directly - was that TA or regular? Again, they brought the topic up.

 

 

 

If you get waffle about deserts or ops then ask them which op and when. All UK ops have a name. If they are inexact, remember they brought the topic up. Persist.

 

Gauge the age of the person or when they left. If you're getting desert stories, does it match when they claim to have been doing stuff? ie if you're talking to someone of cold-war vintage, if they're not talking about Gulf 1, then what the hell are they talking about?!

 

 

 

 

If someone starts talking as though they have a 'background' press pause on the conversation; and ask directly:

 

"it sounds like you were a [whatever they're implying], were you?"

 

then which Bn etc

 

 

 

 

 

If they're implying special forces stuff, press pause (remember, they brought the topic up) just say

 

"it sounds as though you were SAS/SBS, were you?"

 

If that gets a waffly answer, remember they brought the subject up.

 

 

Take it to the next level if you get ambiguous answers about weird stuff that you don't understand

 

"OK but the unit you were in was a special forces unit was it? I mean, you got special forces pay in that unit did you?"

 

 

 

If anyone brings this sort of thing up, and then goes vague when questioned, don't be dazzled by thoughts of OPSEC -remember they brought the topic up.

 

 

 

Challenge them! Stop tolerating walters! Ask precise questions. If they waffle, re-frame it. Persist.

 

If they brought up a military claim, or start talking about popping rag heads or whatever and then can't tell you the unit (eg not just "Para", but the company and the battalion) and the op (eg Telic 6, Granby etc), and start implying 'special' stuff but keep avoiding being specific, then they're probably lying - ask direct questions, never take an implied story.

 

Pin them down to stating the facts and, if they're bullshitting, force them to lie outright and not just through inference.

 

Bottom line; if someone brings this sort of stuff up or starts implying stuff, but then goes waffly when asked about specifics, then they're probably lying. Keep your money in your pocket.

 

The simple direct solution is to politely ask:

 

"It sounds like you're saying you were..[xxx] ..were you?"

[ANDY T]

Hi

I been following this thread and as an ex Army solder my self i would like to know who is unnamed person you are talking about. As you said it is well out of order for some pretending to be something he is not especially if that person is profiting by it.

 

Yes you do get some people that make up things and you just know they are bull-shiters and sometime you fell like saying what the f..k are you on-about. I have herd it from some of my fellow shooters and some work mates. One even had the balls to say he had a one inch group at a 1000 yards know i was a shooter i had to put him in his place.

 

But hey they are the one that just wished they had joined up but never had the balls to do it, they are harmless.

Its the ones that try and make a sale through bringing the Forces into it i really do not like and i will often throw something into the conversation to indicate i am ex HMS and stops the bullshit

 

I cannot speck for all ex-service personnel but most of us ex-service lads will never bring up what we done in the services its just not done or is that just me??

 

Andy

[dannyt]

Come on then who are these people trading on the back of being Army types? Ive had a fire arms ticket since i was 18 years old ,iam 45 now.

 

I dont know any at all . I have an RFD and have trade accounts in the UK and abroad , No body has ever ever stated when buying goods Iam ex forces.

 

NAME AND SHAME........

[brown dog]

You caught me out. There aren't any. Good catch.

[forbie]

Eh doesn't sound right to me Brown Dog sounds like a cop out which is fair enough. From what I have read here (other posts) other forums one company springs to mind. If you do a look around the net a lot of them are related to past Newark gun shows and comments made by certain people about certain products from a certain company. Another example was posted not too long ago about a certain individual's alleged history for the type of courses he was is taking. LOOK for them and make your own mind up. I am saying nothing more I already have had my ar?e chewed and posts deleted for politely pointing out something on another post.

I must also say I have no military background neither though I was a lance jack in the TA 2/51 B Company Gordon Highlanders which sadly don't exist any more.