Cant Get Zero

[oaken]

This scope has a known issue - very limited elevation adjustment! I think it's about 15mins so not at all forgiving of any misalignment. 

You have 3 more regions where potential misalignment could occur over a normal setup thereby making it far less robust. 

You need to check them all. 

Is the barrel seated in the action correctly? Have you tried a different barrel?

The rail being inclined and fitted reversed would seem to be the obvious contender. 

You say you locktited everything, did you locktite between the rail and the receiver, as raising the front of the rail by only 10thou will loose you half the scopes elevation adjustment.

Is there any binding between the Optilock bases and the rail ie. are the slots in the rail deep enough to accommodate either of the base screws?

A quick fix would be to replace the optilocks with a set of Burris zee rings with the adjustable inserts, they would immediately gain you 8-10moa (25mils?) and put you in the right adjustment range for your setup.

I'd rather find where the problem is though. I would try junking the Optilocks first though.

Rup

[sobeell]

Thankyou all gentlemen

 

At last got a dry wind free day to test test test

 

S&B PRECISION HUNTER 4-16 KLASSIC 156 x 1/2 cm clicks top to bottom, 78 clicks to centre

 

Leupold VX3 6-20 48 MOA top to bottom 24 MOA centre , 1/4 MOA Clicks

 

Results all at 50 metres

 

Optilocks and S&B PH had to be 70 x 5mm clicks up to get zero so at the extreme of adjustment

 

Optilocks and Leupold VX3 13.75 MOA up to get centre

 

In both cases the rifle was shooting 4 to 5 cm to the right, this kinda rules out scope problems.

 

Warne mounts and S&B had to be 76 clicks up to get centre.......(absolute extreme) but dead centre windage

 

Warne mounts and Leupold 8.5 MOA up to get zero but again dead centre windage

 

by their nature, the front and back warne mount may have got mixed up, front to back here, possibly explaining the large difference between the 2 scopes, however it does indicate that the warne and optiocks are roughly both shooting the same,ie scoping much too high , although warne were near perfect windage on both scopes,

 

Ive measured the pic rail with a micrometer and its dead on, and looks OK

[sobeell]

This scope has a known issue - very limited elevation adjustment! I think it's about 15mins so not at all forgiving of any misalignment. 

You have 3 more regions where potential misalignment could occur over a normal setup thereby making it far less robust. 

You need to check them all. 

Is the barrel seated in the action correctly? Have you tried a different barrel? not yet

The rail being inclined and fitted reversed would seem to be the obvious contender.  it is 0 moa, there seems only one way to fit it

You say you locktited everything, did you locktite between the rail and the receiver, as raising the front of the rail by only 10thou will loose you half the scopes elevation adjustment. the pic rail is initially quite slack, (slacker than i would like) on the rifle rail, however there is 4 allen screws forward and aft of the receiver, equally spaced in a square pattern to tighten the pic rail down, i am going to try tightening the rear 4 down first, but cant see it making much difference

Is there any binding between the Optilock bases and the rail ie. are the slots in the rail deep enough to accommodate either of the base screws? not sure what you mean ?

A quick fix would be to replace the optilocks with a set of Burris zee rings with the adjustable inserts, they would immediately gain you 8-10moa (25mils?) and put you in the right adjustment range for your setup.

I'd rather find where the problem is though. I would try junking the Optilocks first though.

Rup

[international poacher]

I know this an old post, but I am having exactly the same problem with my S&B 4-16 x 50 PH so I cant help asking you how did you end up fixing the problem, did you get reed of the optilock mounts or what did you do ?

I am mounting the S&B on a custom tikka m595 with a heavy border barrel. and any other scope then the S&B 4-16 can easely be zeroed. I am in disbelief cause I realy love the scope, and I have had sent it to schmidt and Bender Germany 3 times and they promise that the scope is fine. so what now. any good ideas.

[sobeell]

I know this an old post, but I am having exactly the same problem with my S&B 4-16 x 50 PH so I cant help asking you how did you end up fixing the problem, did you get reed of the optilock mounts or what did you do ?

I am mounting the S&B on a custom tikka m595 with a heavy border barrel. and any other scope then the S&B 4-16 can easely be zeroed. I am in disbelief cause I realy love the scope, and I have had sent it to schmidt and Bender Germany 3 times and they promise that the scope is fine. so what now. any good ideas.

 

Sorry mate, i am not any further forward , even had a new pic rail from third eye tactical sent to try it, no big difference, same with new lower optilock rings, wee bit better , but not good enough.

 

I was going to send the scope back to s and b , but now i've seen your post, im not so sure.

 

S and B kinda recommend EAW Apel scope mounts, as these are adjustable, but as far as i can find out, they are only adjustable for windage, and not elevation, which is no use to me or you ?

 

Once again, i love the scope, the clarity and quality.......but it seems too limited in adjustment ?

[ejg223]

There are quite a few scopes with small travel, 5-25 swaro with 1" tube, 6.5-20 conquest, 3-12x50 classic s&b to name a few.

I mostly bore sight out of the workshop window, if I don't have plenty reserves in either direction on the scope

after bore sighting I won't bother to fire a shot.

Only one reason we have scope mounts, they must hold the scope in the right direction.

edi

[Redfox]

You are using a Target type scope and they all have limited adjustment to improve accuracy and repeatability of adjustment, the scope manufacturers expect the rifle and mounts to be accurately aligned and not needing 10ft of adjustment at 50 or 100yds. It seems like a hell of alot of scope for a little plinking rifle I must say.

Anyway I havent had the issues Eddie mentions with optilocks, in fact much the opposite, buuuuuuuuut since the Beretta numpties took over its all about get em out the door now not quality!!. Remeber the splitting stainless barrels? and I bought (ordered in advance)a sako deluxe 75 in 243 to replace the trusted L579 243 deluxe Ive had since 1969 and it was a POS, the barrel and action were not in alignment, the trigger mech was pressed tin! and GMKs answer was to bend the barrel , twice!! so it was rejected and the old faithful was sent back to Sako for rebarrel, reblueing and a general overhaul.

It came back at a very reasonable price exactly as I wanted it, the chamber measured up identical to the original when new, the trigger pull was exactly the same as I had set it and I couldnt have been happier. Using my original home loads it shoots better than 0.25 at 100 yds ( if Im on form! ) and the trigger is like breaking glass.

I could not acheve zero or even near the centre with the scopes adjustment ( S&B 3-12 x50)which was in the mounts and slid off the original rifle fully zeroed, so it had to be the rifle. Having at that time access to accurate measuring instruments and machines I quickly established that the barrel was a mile out of aligment with the receiver and gmk gave up the argument.

So I would get someone like Baldie to look at it for you as this is more involved than just the mounts, Dave has a lot of experience and can put you right, its well worth the carriage or a trip to see him, ( not saying the other contri8butors are bad or anything). hope you getit fixed lads.

Redfox

[sobeell]

You are using a Target type scope and they all have limited adjustment to improve accuracy and repeatability of adjustment, the scope manufacturers expect the rifle and mounts to be accurately aligned and not needing 10ft of adjustment at 50 or 100yds. It seems like a hell of alot of scope for a little plinking rifle I must say.

Anyway I havent had the issues Eddie mentions with optilocks, in fact much the opposite, buuuuuuuuut since the Beretta numpties took over its all about get em out the door now not quality!!. Remeber the splitting stainless barrels? and I bought (ordered in advance)a sako deluxe 75 in 243 to replace the trusted L579 243 deluxe Ive had since 1969 and it was a POS, the barrel and action were not in alignment, the trigger mech was pressed tin! and GMKs answer was to bend the barrel , twice!! so it was rejected and the old faithful was sent back to Sako for rebarrel, reblueing and a general overhaul.

It came back at a very reasonable price exactly as I wanted it, the chamber measured up identical to the original when new, the trigger pull was exactly the same as I had set it and I couldnt have been happier. Using my original home loads it shoots better than 0.25 at 100 yds ( if Im on form! ) and the trigger is like breaking glass.

I could not acheve zero or even near the centre with the scopes adjustment ( S&B 3-12 x50)which was in the mounts and slid off the original rifle fully zeroed, so it had to be the rifle. Having at that time access to accurate measuring instruments and machines I quickly established that the barrel was a mile out of aligment with the receiver and gmk gave up the argument.

So I would get someone like Baldie to look at it for you as this is more involved than just the mounts, Dave has a lot of experience and can put you right, its well worth the carriage or a trip to see him, ( not saying the other contri8butors are bad or anything). hope you getit fixed lads.

Redfox

 

 

Totally beaten with this one, i have new optilocks, new pic rail, and when i set the scope to mid point i can't hit an A4 sheet at 25 yards.......UNREAL

 

i know its a lot of scope, but i am after corvids at 100 metres plus, and needed the 16 x, and love the clarity of s and b

 

Totally lost interest, and been too busy to persue................were do i send it for professional help ?

[MJR]

Where abouts in the country are you?

[sobeell]

I have now had a chance to try it with a new set of extra low optilock rings, and more importantly , a set of sportsmatch mounts direct to receiver without picatinny rail. And the answer is, they both put the bullet in the same place at 25 metres.

 

that is 15 cm low, and 5 cm left. So it looks like the mounts are not at fault. I know 25 metres was not ideal, but it was a quick test. The rifle is a Sako Quad varmint in 17 hmr with changeable barrel....... which appears to be fitted correctly.

 

A borrowed leupold scope is the same distance out as the s and b, but has much more adjustment, and can be zeroed. The SandB is precision hunter, so has 30 cm each side of dead zero to play with, (60 x 5 mm clicks) thats why I'm right at the extreme, and just about can be zeroed , but can't use the ballistic turret facility.

 

A zeiss 7 x 50 distal scope was also tried and was 30 x 1 cm clicks off centre at 50 metres to get zero.

 

 

 

 

Anybody come across this on a sako quad......the rifle appears faulty, or is it acceptable that a new sako quad rifle rail and barrel appears to be 30 cm off at 100 metres from true dead scope centre on all scopes tried ?

[happyhunter]

Hi sobeell, reading this topic I've just poped up stairs to see how much adjustment is left on my s&b 3-12x50 German classic. The scope is on a tikka t3 lite with a 0 moa egw rail fitted and warne quick detatch rings. At my zero of 100m the scope has 19 clicks bullet up remaining and is 1 click off mechanical centre on the windage. Click values on this are 10mm/100m. Have you tried a different barrel on the rifle eg a .22lr etc. as you say it sounds like the rifle at fault. Get a good smith to check it over then get onto sako.

[spanner]

Hi sobeell, reading this topic I've just poped up stairs to see how much adjustment is left on my s&b 3-12x50 German classic. The scope is on a tikka t3 lite with a 0 moa egw rail fitted and warne quick detatch rings. At my zero of 100m the scope has 19 clicks bullet up remaining and is 1 click off mechanical centre on the windage. Click values on this are 10mm/100m. Have you tried a different barrel on the rifle eg a .22lr etc. as you say it sounds like the rifle at fault. Get a good smith to check it over then get onto sako.

 

I had a Quad Varmint with a Hot Rod rail and had no issues. Confused why you would use Optilocks on a Weaver Rail though, they are made for the tapered CF receivers?

 

I used the lowest Leupold QRW mounts I could on my Rail and never had any problems but used the rail, 2 scopes and QRW's to swap between 22lr and HMR.

 

I always closed the bolt before nipping up the barrel, are you doing this? Worth a try if you are not as would be removing the action from the stock to make sure there are no foreign bodies in there between action and stock, a long shot I know but worth a try as your appear to have covered all the usual bases.

[CZ Varminter]

I had a Quad Varmint with a Hot Rod rail and had no issues. Confused why you would use Optilocks on a Weaver Rail though, they are made for the tapered CF receivers?

 

I used the lowest Leupold QRW mounts I could on my Rail and never had any problems but used the rail, 2 scopes and QRW's to swap between 22lr and HMR.

 

I always closed the bolt before nipping up the barrel, are you doing this? Worth a try if you are not as would be removing the action from the stock to make sure there are no foreign bodies in there between action and stock, a long shot I know but worth a try as your appear to have covered all the usual bases.

 

Plain and simple and i aint no gun smith those miunts are far to high!!! I would love to know what the distance is between centre scope and boreline is.

[sobeell]

Plain and simple and i aint no gun smith those miunts are far to high!!! I would love to know what the distance is between centre scope and boreline is.

 

 

i am using extra low optilocks and the distance is about 40 mm

[sobeell]

Plain and simple and i aint no gun smith those miunts are far to high!!! I would love to know what the distance is between centre scope and boreline is.

 

 

i have optilocks extra low on optilock weaver/pic bases

 

 

Optilockbase.pdf

[spanner]

i have optilocks extra low on optilock weaver/pic bases

 

 

Optilockbase.pdf

 

Didn't know they did those. Have you put another scope on it and zeroed, at least if you did that you would know it was the scope at fault?

[spanner]

Just reading June 2012 Shooting Sports, page 68 Sportsmatch ATP72 Adjustable Weaver mounts which adust for height and angle. Look to me like the answer to your problem assuming the scope isn't faulty which is doubtful given the quality.

[fizzbangwhallop]

I have now had a chance to try it with a new set of extra low optilock rings, and more importantly , a set of sportsmatch mounts direct to receiver without picatinny rail. And the answer is, they both put the bullet in the same place at 25 metres.

 

that is 15 cm low, and 5 cm left. So it looks like the mounts are not at fault. I know 25 metres was not ideal, but it was a quick test. The rifle is a Sako Quad varmint in 17 hmr with changeable barrel....... which appears to be fitted correctly.

 

A borrowed leupold scope is the same distance out as the s and b, but has much more adjustment, and can be zeroed. The SandB is precision hunter, so has 30 cm each side of dead zero to play with, (60 x 5 mm clicks) thats why I'm right at the extreme, and just about can be zeroed , but can't use the ballistic turret facility.

 

A zeiss 7 x 50 distal scope was also tried and was 30 x 1 cm clicks off centre at 50 metres to get zero.

 

Anybody come across this on a sako quad......the rifle appears faulty, or is it acceptable that a new sako quad rifle rail and barrel appears to be 30 cm off at 100 metres from true dead scope centre on all scopes tried ?

 

Hiya Sobeel,

This must be driving you kinda loopy!!

Just read your bit on trying sportsmatch mounts.. can I ask if these were a two piece set and if so, whether you tried reversing them?

 

My only reason for asking this is that when I used to use 2 piece mounts the screws ended up on the right as I couldn't get the adjustment with them on the left, I think this was on my 10/22 Ruger and on mate's 10/22's too. My little Titan MPT and Bearcat air rifles have the Sportsmatch throw forward mounts and the screws on those are on the left, likewise the Sportsmatch one-piece inclined mounts on the 2 rimmies are on the left.

 

But when I was having problems with the rimmie mounts (The CZ .17 came first and it shot well, the finnfire .22 came second and with the new mount/same model swaro 'scope it wouldn't - swapped mounts and scopes between rifles and both good). Anyway, I spoke to Sportsmatch when I was having the problem and mentioned that before I'd simply turned mounts round to have the screws on the right.. he said "Yeah, that's what I usually do" but he had no answer on the one-piece jobbie and that was as far as it got with him.

 

So, w'be worth just reversing the mounts and trying that.... but if it's a one-piece you might need the inclined mount if you haven't got enough elevation.. best of luck with that, they're obviously different between batches.

 

With each of the rimmies I started out with a 30mm tube Swaro 2.2-9x42 and 2 piece Sportsmatch, screws on the right. That little 'scope had enough adjustment to cope but the 2 swaro 1" tube AV 6-18x50's (1/4"/7mm at 100) didn't. I could get them centered vertically with 2 piece mounts but not the elevation so had to go for the one-piece inclined.

 

I was going down the path of the Burris .22 signature rings with an offset rings kit but I ended up with a pair of highs (don't think they do/did a medium height as the lows were too low) from Optics Warehouse. That was when I discovered switching the mounts between the 2 rimmies worked.

 

atb

 

Fizz

 

The Burris are still here and the offset ring kit, 1" set.

[sobeell]

Its the rifle, I've tried 4 different mounts, 4 different scopes, and fundamentally they all shoot =/-300 mm low, and a massive 50 to 300 mm left at 50 metres, at all scopes at mechanical dead zeros.

 

Ive had the barrel on and off several times, and it makes no difference. It can hammer them into the same hole, just miles away from scope when its centred.

 

And my S and B 4 - 16 precision hunter, hasn't enough adjustment top play with.

 

Question is, is this acceptable in a new Sako Quad in 17 hmr, out of the box, ........i think its bloody awful on a premium brand.

 

Its gone back, but the RFD says he has seen worse on other rifles calibre's, but the scopes always took it out !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also as a matter of interest, split case's and squibs on at least 30 % of 200 federal black tips, but none at all on 300 hornady red tips !!!!!!!

 

Again bloody awful

[fizzbangwhallop]

Its the rifle, I've tried 4 different mounts, 4 different scopes, and fundamentally they all shoot =/-300 mm low, and a massive 50 to 300 mm left at 50 metres, at all scopes at mechanical dead zeros.

 

Ive had the barrel on and off several times, and it makes no difference. It can hammer them into the same hole, just miles away from scope when its centred.

 

And my S and B 4 - 16 precision hunter, hasn't enough adjustment top play with.

 

Question is, is this acceptable in a new Sako Quad in 17 hmr, out of the box, ........i think its bloody awful on a premium brand.

 

Its gone back, but the RFD says he has seen worse on other rifles calibre's, but the scopes always took it out !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also as a matter of interest, split case's and squibs on at least 30 % of 200 federal black tips, but none at all on 300 hornady red tips !!!!!!!

 

Again bloody awful

 

Not good, not good! Is the dealer replacing it with another quad or are you going for something-else?

 

Fizz

[M99]

Have you got a Mod fitted? it the Mod causing this? ie thread not cut true? and therefore out of line?

[sobeell]

Have you got a Mod fitted? it the Mod causing this? ie thread not cut true? and therefore out of line?

No moderator, rifle will hammer tacks, but rubbish bore and receiver line up !!

[Swamp Donkey]

Sobeel, where are you ? Do you have a mate local who is prepared to try the s&b on a known good rifle ? From what I've read so far, you are about 12moa 'out' that's only about 0.015mm over 150mm if memory serves me well. Assuming your barrel goes 30mm into the receiver, that's 0.003mm out of line, it's not much to play with. I'm not familiar with the Sako quad, could the barrel/receiver fit be improved by lapping ?

[sobeell]

So the rifle goes back to Gunmark, they send it back with a new barrel.........................10 Weeks later

 

And they have neither checked the old set up, or the new, because it puts the rounds exactly were the old one did !! that is exactly..........

 

Tried my scope on another quad 17 hmr and it was better, but not much, still 17cm low at 50 metres, as opposed to 30 cm low on my quad

 

Fundamentally the quad system is flawed methinks, as the barrel as someone else previously mentioned, only has to be out a tad, to make quite a difference...........ok if you have a scope with lots of adjustment........but no use on mine with 30 cm of adjustment only.

 

Im going to borrow a CZ and try it............just to see........i'm sure it will be better

 

Gunmark Service...........your having a laugh !!!!!!!!

[Swamp Donkey]

If you are anywhere near me, stick it on mine, I'm pretty much center on both adjustments so I know my rifle lines up ok.