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second hand actions


flyingfisherman

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Ive been looking at rifles recently and was wondering what sort of percentage of the new RRP you would expect to pay for a used action, say a BAT type or similar? Its difficult to know a good deal if you see one?

Hi,

 

Most quality (read custom) actions get recycled by their owners into 'new' or rebarreled rifles. These actions usually come onto the secondhand market only as complete rifles. Check the price of the rifle against the cost of a new action and decide accordingly. At the other end of the scale, good M98 Mausers, Sakos and Rem. M700's are worth about £200 before any work is done. This obviously excludes any square bridge, Kurz or Oberndorf commercial M98's,

 

Alan

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Ive been looking at rifles recently and was wondering what sort of percentage of the new RRP you would expect to pay for a used action, say a BAT type or similar? Its difficult to know a good deal if you see one?

 

Well, a new BAT or Stolle action will cost in excess of £1000.

 

If you buy a secondhand custom gun in a 'lively' calibre it could well need a new barrel. So, you end up buying an action and stock.

 

If the stock is exactly what you want then OK, you are buying an action and stock plus trigger. Topside, £850 for the action, maybe £250 for the stock plus £100 if it's a Jewel trigger - that's £1200.

 

Now, get the barrel of your choice fitted by a good gunsmith and you'll have a pretty good rifle for say £1850.

 

Unfortunately, there aren't many BATs or Stolles about. Mind you, earlier in the year, I was trying to sell a Stolle Panda with brand-new Bartlein barrel, muzzle-brake, Jewel trigger, Tooley MBR stock, chambered in 6.5-284 for £1950 and they weren't exactly fighting over it.

 

Vince

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Thanks Alan, i figured that was the problem as you see very few custom actions for sale S/H. I want to stay away from factory actions for two reasons, one is that you would need to 'true' the action before you start which could add £300 to £400 to the cost of the action and then at the end of the day you still have a factory action which doesnt dictate the resale value of its cost.

 

Vince - i was thinking along the same lines that with a second hand custom rifle with no history your buying a load of S/H components which happen to be bolted together.

 

Just out of interest, how much do BATs and similar actions cost new at the moment, i understand that the exchange rates dont exactly help matters at the moment!

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A new Stolle or BAT costs about £1050 to £1250 depending on spec. Could take six months to arrive.

 

Barnards are cheaper and more 'available'.

 

Also, the GBR action (a Remmy clone) is now available (off the shelf) with solid bottom and longer tenon - I'm currently building an F/TR rifle on one.

Remmy footprint actions also have a wide choice of no-bed stocks - which saves time and money.

 

Vince

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Cheers Vince,

 

I like the look of BAT actions. Ive had a look at Russ Gall's action close up and thats nice too.. not such a nice price tag though! Im not drawn to GBR actions as a friend has had no end of troubles with his (not sure of the circumstances ie gunsmith or action).

 

SO what attributes are desirable in an F-Class / BR action? Ive heard about 3-lug vs. 2-lug for speed when it comes to BR and other things about short and fat actions giving plenty of rigidity.. Are all of these actions pretty much similar and its just down to personal preference? My thoughts are that with the right gun smith putting the tube on, any action and barrel could shoot sub 0.3 MOA..? Or am i missing something fundamental?

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A new Stolle or BAT costs about £1050 to £1250 depending on spec. Could take six months to arrive.

 

Barnards are cheaper and more 'available'.

 

Also, the GBR action (a Remmy clone) is now available (off the shelf) with solid bottom and longer tenon - I'm currently building an F/TR rifle on one.

Remmy footprint actions also have a wide choice of no-bed stocks - which saves time and money.

 

Vince

Ive been trying to encourage shooter to start using more of the homegrown produce

which is well up there with the yanky stuff. Ive decided since the downturn in the

economy to start buying from guys like Graham at GBR and keep our money as local as

possible. These are great actions and the guys behind them are good blokes. This is

the stuff Ill be using a lot more of and I think others should start thinking the same

way.

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Ive been trying to encourage shooter to start using more of the homegrown produce

which is well up there with the yanky stuff. Ive decided since the downturn in the

economy to start buying from guys like Graham at GBR and keep our money as local as

possible. These are great actions and the guys behind them are good blokes. This is

the stuff Ill be using a lot more of and I think others should start thinking the same

way.

 

I have not heard good reports on the GBRs mainly due to the fact they decided to use 4140 for the body and 416 for the bolt for some strange reason??

 

the only action which has no known issues (other than price) is Russell Galls.

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I have not heard good reports on the GBRs mainly due to the fact they decided to use 4140 for the body and 416 for the bolt for some strange reason??

 

the only action which has no known issues (other than price) is Russell Galls.

 

Why they did it that way round I don't know but it's of no consquence to the functioning of the action.

 

I've built a couple of rifles on GBR actions - no probs - they worked very well. I'm currently building an F/TR rifle on one of the new GBRs with solid bottom and longer tenon.

 

But, to answer your question Ben - a good long stiff action is preferable if you want to hang a long (30-32 inch) barrel off it. I just happen to like the BAT - beautiful and well made. But, the Barnard is a strong action and there must be more top F Class guns built on Barnards than anything else in the UK.

 

Having said that, Fergal has a point - the more we use our home-built stuff, the better it should get - hence the solid bottom,longer tenon GBR.

 

CHeers

Vince

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I have not heard good reports on the GBRs mainly due to the fact they decided to use 4140 for the body and 416 for the bolt for some strange reason??

 

the only action which has no known issues (other than price) is Russell Galls.

 

The GBR action is the opposite way round to other actions in terms of build materials. To my knowledge it hasn,t caused any problems, and the rifles i,ve seen built on it have been alright.

My own action body is stainless and the bolt is 4140, and mine has no issues either.

 

Would you like to list the supposed "issues" all other actions apart from Russ,s have please Dan ?

 

Problems Start when you have stainless bolts in stainless actions. Hence Stiller coating their bolts now, due to galling problems.

 

Watch this space for a new "F" class, beefed up action, that ticks all the boxes. ;)

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Cant say ive heard of any "issues" with GBR actions...i'd certainly use one for a build.

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It'd be interesting to hear the rationale behind doing the steels 'back to front' though wouldn't it? My naive understanding of metallurgy would point me to the hardest metal for the bit that has load bearing shear-resisting lugs on it.

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I have just recieved my action from russ gall.I am no gunsmith but i have to say the build quality and finish seem second to none,It looks on par to bat actions i seen and handled.Whilst not cheap the up side is a 8 week delivery and you only get what you pay for.In reality does a couple of hundred quid make huge difference on a custom build?I would rather spend a couple a quid more and have something i was happy with.Than own a rifle that every time i took it out the cabinet i wish i spent a bit more and had what i wanted.The up side with custom actions is that instead of changing your rifle you just rebarrel.

ATB SEAN

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It'd be interesting to hear the rationale behind doing the steels 'back to front' though wouldn't it? My naive understanding of metallurgy would point me to the hardest metal for the bit that has load bearing shear-resisting lugs on it.

 

not always in my experience , you see the hardest may also be brittle and prone to fatigue cracks ? also i don't think ive ever seen a bolt with the lugs sheared off ? mostly in my very limited experience the receiver gives way?

 

i'd be interested to know why different materials are used beyond just not being nessacery or ease of machining?

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not always in my experience , you see the hardest may also be brittle and prone to fatigue cracks ? also i don't think ive ever seen a bolt with the lugs sheared off ? mostly in my very limited experience the receiver gives way?

 

i'd be interested to know why different materials are used beyond just not being nessacery or ease of machining?

Hi,

 

The use of dissimilar materials prevents 'stiction'. This is not a problem in all stainless production actions such as the Ruger with it's more generous clearances. In a custom action that has not been adequately lubricated and with tighter tolerances this might cause a problem such as galling. By using different steels the maker can avoid this problem and by carefully choosing steels and heat treatment impart the desired qualities to both the receiver and bolt,

 

Alan

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not always in my experience , you see the hardest may also be brittle and prone to fatigue cracks ? also i don't think ive ever seen a bolt with the lugs sheared off ? mostly in my very limited experience the receiver gives way?

 

i'd be interested to know why different materials are used beyond just not being nessacery or ease of machining?

 

Yes to that, but the steel that's been moved away from is the 'standard' steel. If this was a choice not to use cast iron I'd follow the reasoning, but a decision to move from the 'standard steel' to a softer steel is harder to follow. Bolt lugs not shearing? Early AWs had a few let go - the bolt manfr had been outsourced and they were not hardened to the correct standard; consequently some sheared. They're all made in-house now, and you'll see a little QC strike mark on all AW bolts that's a hardness test. I imagine if a small shop makes a decision to change to a softer steel they'll be doing the same sort of QC. But it'd be interesting to hear the rationale behind the change.

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Yes to that, but the steel that's been moved away from is the 'standard' steel. If this was a choice not to use cast iron I'd follow the reasoning, but a decision to move from the 'standard steel' to a softer steel is harder to follow. Bolt lugs not shearing? Early AWs had a few let go - the bolt manfr had been outsourced and they were not hardened to the correct standard; consequently some sheared. They're all made in-house now, and you'll see a little QC strike mark on all AW bolts that's a hardness test. I imagine if a small shop makes a decision to change to a softer steel they'll be doing the same sort of QC. But it'd be interesting to hear the rationale behind the change.

There are many and varied steels used in action manufacture, the needs of mass manufacturers and custom makers will differ. The mass producer will take into consideration the steel cost, availability, ease of machining, responsiveness to cheaper heat treating procedures and the avoidance of any reworking operations during manufacture. For limited production or custom makers the 'weight' given to these factors will be different. They will be looking at measures to give a higher quality product - 'built up to a standard, not down to a price'. If this means slightly more expensive steels or a more sophisticated heat treatment procedure than so be it.

 

There are many properties looked for in steels used in action manufacture that often appear to be contradictory.

Hardness to resist wear yet the ability to resist shock - toughness and ductility

Corrosion resistance but the abilty to be blacked or otherwise chemically finished

Ease of machining but zero distortsion after substantial material removal

Zero distortsion afer heat treatment whilst still achieving the required hardness and toughness

 

Alan

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For limited production or custom makers the 'weight' given to these factors will be different. They will be looking at measures to give a higher quality product - 'built up to a standard, not down to a price'. If this means slightly more expensive steels or a more sophisticated heat treatment procedure than so be it.

 

Roger all that, but that doesn't explain why just about everyone uses 4140 for bolts; but now a maker is using 416. Yes it's 'different', but it doesn't necessarily follow that 'different' is 'better', it could even mean the opposite, particularly when it's a change that bucks the 'norm'. I'm assuming the norm exists for 'evolutionary' reasons rather than simply being multiple coincidences, so, is going to a softer steel better, inconsequential or worse? That's why it'd be interesting to understand the benefit belived to be being derived from doing it differently in this instance. Of course, it won't affect the price of fish for most of us, just asking out of ballistic-nerditry interest :)

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Roger all that, but that doesn't explain why just about everyone uses 4140 for bolts; but now a maker is using 416. Yes it's 'different', but it doesn't necessarily follow that 'different' is 'better', it could even mean the opposite, particularly when it's a change that bucks the 'norm'. I'm assuming the norm exists for 'evolutionary' reasons rather than simply being multiple coincidences, so, is going to a softer steel better, inconsequential or worse? That's why it'd be interesting to understand the benefit belived to be being derived from doing it differently in this instance. Of course, it won't affect the price of fish for most of us, just asking out of ballistic-nerditry interest :)

Hi,

 

It could simply come down to a personal decision based on a simple idea to make the receiver out of a steel that is easily blacked and liking a 'bright' bolt that will not easily rust. Both 4140 and 416 can be heat treated to give all the necessary qualities for both receiver and bolt. Who wants to ask GBR why they did it?

 

Alan

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