The 22BR-6BR-6.5x47-260 Continuum

[brown dog]

Really posting this as more of a chat starter than an 'I'm about to buy' thread.

 

I'm interested in how people are making the call choosing between 22BR, 6BR, 6.5x47 and 260.

 

Whenever I think about 'next calibre', I always find myself fancying a 6BR but then my mind ratcheting itself up to 260:

 

6BR: crazy accurate, low recoil, cheaper to run.

 

But wouldn't it be nice to have a bit more oomph? Enter 6.5x47

 

But if 6.5x47 then might as well go to 260 and get properly into 139gr territory.

 

But then I go back to thinking how similar a 260 is to a 308, and how nice a dinky little 6BR would be (which ratchets me into thinking about the 22BR! )

 

Excepting a multi-rifle approach, I'd be interested to hear how you fellows sort this in your own minds.

[TonyH]

Isn't a key point its intended application? I know nothing of target shooting as a sport in itself, but for varminting I'd have thought the famously accurate BR would be the best of the 6mm bunch, with the others being a bit too much gun for zapping varmints at all conventional distances....

A friend uses .243 Ackley but although this has enabled him to push out to 900 yards plus on groundhogs, as a varminting traditionalist I like the .22 cals and similar. So I'd go for 22BR - though if I have my 22-250 rebarrelled I'm now coming round to keeping it in that calibre with a fast twist, rather than frig about buying new dies etc for a calibre that's potentially more accurate but maybe not significantly in the real world...

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get a zillion responses recommending this or that alternative 6mm! (If I had to choose 6mm I'd go for the BR, or if I wanted to try shooting foxes in the next county maybe 6mmRem Improved...)

Regards, Tony

[6mmBR]

6BR is really in my eyes the one cartridge that is capable of running from close range out to 1000 yards.

It is capable of benchrest acurracy at the shorter distances and is certainly no slouch at 1000 yards having held many records at this distance.

I shot with Elwood with his 6BR at our club F class matches and his is devastatingly accurate at 300-600 yards and held its own at a 1000 yard match coming a respectable 3rd against some much bigger cartridges.

As you say the 6BR is cheap to run and very easy to load tune. Normally 30gns of Varget/Rel 15/N540 will put you in the running with a 105 bullet.

Like you I was drawn to a bit more poke and I really rate 6mm's as a good alround bullet diameter.

I opted for a 6x47 Lapua this easily drives 105's to 3000fps+ and the barrel life is excellent, mine now has 1200 rnds through it and is in great shape.

I have tried the 6.5x47 personally I found it fussy to tune and I waisted a lot of time messing with 123 Lapuas.

Eventually getting the gun to shoot 120 Bergers. A lot of lads at our club use them to great effect at short range comps but the wheels start falling of at 900+. The light bullets getting badly effected by the wind and there is not really the case capacity to push the 139-142 bullets with enough speed to take advantage of the B.C better run a 6.5-284 but this has poor barrel life, mine with 900 rounds through her is looking sad with a bore scope although still shoots very well.

The .22BR is a great benchrest Varmint cartridge but un less you are going to run a tight twist it is a 500 yard caliber and personally the 6BR will do it all better.

Cheers

Dave

[DMCI]

Isn't a key point its intended application? I know nothing of target shooting as a sport in itself, but for varminting I'd have thought the famously accurate BR would be the best of the 6mm bunch, with the others being a bit too much gun for zapping varmints at all conventional distances....

A friend uses .243 Ackley but although this has enabled him to push out to 900 yards plus on groundhogs, as a varminting traditionalist I like the .22 cals and similar. So I'd go for 22BR - though if I have my 22-250 rebarrelled I'm now coming round to keeping it in that calibre with a fast twist, rather than frig about buying new dies etc for a calibre that's potentially more accurate but maybe not significantly in the real world...

Anyway, I'm sure you'll get a zillion responses recommending this or that alternative 6mm! (If I had to choose 6mm I'd go for the BR, or if I wanted to try shooting foxes in the next county maybe 6mmRem Improved...)

Regards, Tony

 

In my humble opinion, the key to selecting a long range varmint round is the choice of projectile as first item.

 

Bullets with the highest G1 factor are some of the more advanced 7mm pills. Here are a few examples shown with a .308 175 Sierra match bullets:

 

 

The first three are made by "botique" bullet manufacturers, The fourth is the 180 Berger VLD. Then the question is how to drive it. You have a variety of choices including the 7x57, various 7mm Mags (7WSM was my choice), 284 Win, 7-06, 7-08, etc.

 

These VLD retain velocity long after lesser performers are going subsonic and becoming unstable.

 

Lapua builds some very nice 139 Scenars which I use for casual shooting in the .260 from my hunting battery. This has a Lilja 9" twist fluted barrel that works just fine with this round. I also use the 129 Hornady SST for medium game.

 

[ds1]

Hi BD,

6mmBR....good for target, vermin and legal for deer. Great accuracy (use A-Max for everything). Available in standard Tikka or Blaser rifles so no need for custom crap, however should you want to upgrade the stock there is at least one fine German fabricator making after market stocks and moderators so the neighbours are not disturbed.

 

Also a wealth of reloading data available and cheap but excellent quality Lee reloading dies.

 

Think that touched most bases

 

David.

[TonyH]

In my humble opinion, the key to selecting a long range varmint round is the choice of projectile as first item.

 

Bullets with the highest G1 factor are some of the more advanced 7mm pills.................

Nice pics. What do you shoot with 7mm though, DMC? I can just about see the 7mm calibres being used for long range coyotes but I see very few references to these in Varmint Hunter magazine (or the US Shooting Times when I subscribed to that), most guys using .22 or 6mm rifles - with a few shooting 'em with .17 cals...

Clearly those high BC 7mm bullets are going to shoot a long way very accurately, but even if we in UK could get these certificated for use against small varmints it still seems like massive overkill! And even in the quieter parts of the Westcountry where I live, the blast of any 7mm round going off is going to be uncomfortably noisy. My modest idea of "long range varminting" is approaching 400 yards and out to 500-600, which is tricky enough in all conscience, and those guys here who exceed these distances are exceptional shots using very finely tuned kit. Just my thoughts...

Regards, Tony

[Ronin]

Question

 

End use application?

[DMCI]

Nice pics. What do you shoot with 7mm though, DMC? I can just about see the 7mm calibres being used for long range coyotes but I see very few references to these in Varmint Hunter magazine (or the US Shooting Times when I subscribed to that), most guys using .22 or 6mm rifles - with a few shooting 'em with .17 cals...

 

My main varmint caliber for PDs (prairie dogs, not police departments ) is the .260 with the 100 grain varmint hollow point at 3270, which works just fine for 300 to 500 yards.

 

The thing basically runs out of gas at 700 yards based on personal experience. Not good. The 7WSM offers two modes. 1 is the big target bullets with essentially unlimited range and secondly what I am just developing now is the Sierra 100 grain Varmint Hollow point which exits at 3600 with relatively modest charges that extend barrel life. Where we shoot there is literally no one within ear shot of the rifle, except a few cows or bison. Shooting in the picture below I found the limitations of the .260 and also the Mildot which is just too course for this kind of work. Many first time shooters brought .223 thru .22-250. Those repeat attendees brought minimum .243 Win. At 700yds, 100 grainers were landing 6" either side of the target in a basically vertical terminal trajectory. At the time I didn't know enough about scope technology to get on the target. What you do is take the observe point of impact in the scope and move it to the target. The H-25 has enough points in the reticle to make this easy, but it is also possible with the mil dot. Elevation was dead on, but windage was the problem. Juvenile PDs just stood there and let the dirt hit them.

 

Note the white tape on the elevation knob. That was masking tape that I used as a range card for reference details like bushes, fence posts, etc.

 

 

This scope is the no longer made 6.5-30x58 SN3 (35 tube) with the mildot reticle. It also has the super high res option that allows me to see PD eye color at 400 yards by personal experience. The low power is used to get on the dogs when they are spotted then I turn up to bring the thing up close. Team partners were down the hill using AR-15s, just not enough gun at that range.

 

At the time I wished I had what Dr. Williams termed a little more whack He used a 25-06. That short 7 was the best compromise of power and reduced recoil.

 

Photo showing more detail of .260 on M70:

 

 

 

Below is "Rick from Oregon" who was there too with his .243 Winchester and on this day nailed a PD at 843 Yards. He normally a squirrel shooter laughingly considered shooting PDs unethical because they are so big! He now likes the .204 Ruger for squirrels which I use as well for that purpose. He carries the pistol for anything under 75 yards and to take out attacks by aggressive squirrels, which he claims happens on occasion.

 

Rick is friends with Leupold factory people who hunt with him, so he is not allowed to buy good scopes. (If he reads this I will hear about it!)

 

Note in the picture below all the mounds in the distance. This is why the ranchers don't like them because off all the damage they do to grazing land. They are such a problem that some use poisons like strychnine, etc. Problem is raptors eat the dead PDs and the poison attacks them as well. NOT GOOD! So ethical land owners invite hunters to shoot them and the poison in the food chain goes away. The hunters have so much fun that they often pay owners for the privilege of shooting. Here the Reservation even has a director of prairie dog resources.

 

 

PS: If you look at you-tube you will find some east coasters shooting varmints with .300 magnums which I think is overkill. (Equivalent to what W.S.C. called bouncing the rubble.)

 

[terryh]

Matt,

 

I'm with Ronin - what do you want it to do?

 

You see a lot of posts saying 'I want to shoot vermin and target to 1000yards, plus be deer capable, oh and a bit of club comps too' , to me this ends up as a rifle that's 'multi purpose / multi useless! I could enter a tactical comp with my deer rifle, I'd be at the starting line but not at the finish

 

Are you talking a custom build or a factory - this limits your options straight off as, to make use of some of the heavier bullets you'd need a fast twist which does not normally come from the factory.

 

I know you hate reloading so neck turning, fire forming etc. is out.

 

The 6BR is a nice neat cartridge, but the 6x47 came about to ensire good magazine feeding with heavy 6mm bullets which folks had troube with in 6BR, not saying it cannot be done, but people only shooting 300m do not develope a cartridge for nothing (or do you? enter WSMSAUMMAG-zer-daisy ).

 

I plumped for a 6.5x47, feeds/fits a short action, good bullets and has the legs but some folks have had problems with load development, I did not experiance this, I agree with the 120 SMK's not being great long distance bullets but as to it not pushing the 139 Scanars fast enough?? I'm getting comfortably past 2800fps with a comparitivly short barrel so not sure what folks want? Brass is stoooopidly expensive though.

 

I simple solution would be a fast twist 243 shooting 115g DTAC's at sensible speeds. Cheap brass (you don't cry when you have to leave them on the ground at comps), simple dies, long barrel life and makes the 308 look a bit sad when shot under real conditions - having been humbled when they first came into tactical matches about 6 years ago. Or perhaps a 7-08 shooting 160+ grain bullets?

 

But everyone to thier own, if you're buying it and it does what you want under the terms you want it to then it's the rifle for you.

 

Brgds Terry

 

DS1 - Dave, really surprised you list Blaser as an option, everyone I know who's ever owned one has got rid of it? Not being funny here or 'dissin' anyone's rifle, just what I've noticed.

[ds1]

Hi Terry, I got rid of my Blaser too (other than BD having a horizontal learning cure with Blasers) I was seeing if I could touch all bases of the "christmas topics" in the (yet again) mods thread.

 

David.

[Elwood]

BD, I currently shoot the first three calibres that you mention, on a calm day I would choose the 6BR for everything up to 1000 yards on paper.

 

As already said, end user application?

 

Conclusion, buy them all, I did

[baldie]

Ds1.....i think thats gone over their heads buddy.

 

I liked it.

[Ronin]

Didn't pass me by, but I see no nibbles as yet.......

[Ronin]

Despite having an abject dislike (unfounded I know) for 243, Terry has a point..

 

 

Although you would be erring towards custom build and opeing your wallet if you went that route.

 

 

Alot to be said for the BR, as there is for a XC, 6x47 and Crusader - all hold their own at distance - especuially with 105, 107, 115 grainers.

 

Low recoil, low cost (powder) and stupid accuracy have their advantages.

 

6.5x47 - found that beyond 650mtrs its running out of legs, on a windy day, personally I find it no better than 308 to shoot.

 

Although its still a great little cartridge, an improved version could do just a wee bit better...

 

 

260 Rem, yep, another alrounder, easy to load, shoots 140's and has the legs to 1k.

 

Plenty of comps won in the states with this.

 

 

My preferenace - has to be the 6.5x284, the only downside is barrel life, but for me that isnt really an issue, 3 hrs work and I have another done....

 

This is the true all rounder IMHO, I can take deer, fox and shoot targets at 1k all with the same rifle (maybe not the same bullet), but its a true all rounder that will hold its own, providing the round count isnt too high....

[brown dog]

I'm with Ronin - what do you want it to do?

 

You see a lot of posts saying 'I want to shoot vermin and target to 1000yards, plus be deer capable, oh and a bit of club comps too' , to me this ends up as a rifle that's 'multi purpose / multi useless! I could enter a tactical comp with my deer rifle, I'd be at the starting line but not at the finish

 

 

Just the stuff in italics really

 

I suppose the answer is: a 300m McQueens rifle suitable for tacticool comp and long range plinking.

 

 

The fast twist 243 launching 115 DTACs must be one of the ballistically most forgiving rounds out there; but the barrel life's a bit shocking. I also like the idea of low recoil (to me, anything out of a 308ish case kicks 308ish).

 

The cost of 6.5x47 brass keeps being mentioned; how much is it?!

 

 

[Just pinged ds1's input:

 

6mmBR....good for target, vermin and legal for deer. Great accuracy (use A-Max for everything). Available in standard Tikka or Blaser rifles so no need for custom crap, however should you want to upgrade the stock there is at least one fine German fabricator making after market stocks and moderators so the neighbours are not disturbed.

 

Also a wealth of reloading data available and cheap but excellent quality Lee reloading dies.

 

.... yup it did pass me by very good! ]

[Ballistic Hamster]

Hi BD,

My thoughts on this , you know what l can do with my .22 B/R love it at any range

sorry cant help on other calibers,

catch up soon

atb

Glen

[Scotch_egg]

I am biased when it comes to the 6mmbr having had Ronin build me one last year. However I still sometimes wonder it the 22br may have been a better option shooting the 75gr A-max. But I can't argue with the results I have had

 

6.5x47 and the 6-6.5x47 were ruled out by the extreme pricing of the brass and for me the 6.5's are excessive on varmints.

 

I am interested in the 6mm Crusader but there is a bit of case forming that puts me off. It does achieve great velocity from a short action and is similar to the 6mm Remmington.

 

 

A .243 with tight twist for the 115gr DTACS might be best of both worlds. There is a lot of bad feeling towards the humble .243 but I think it has potential with the right twist. Maybe a longer neck would help. Plus it mag feeds if this is a requirment.

[brown dog]

Glen,

 

Yup, it was rather impressive! Think I'll do some reading on 22BR; don't know anything about other than it's OK at 1km in 40mph wind

[Scotch_egg]

Well that will teach me to make a brew mid way writing a reply.....

 

 

The 6.5x47 brass is between £80-90

[Ronin]

Think a 22-250AI with fast twist will do the same a a 22 BR...

 

 

Although that isnt a challenge Glen, as ive seen what u can do in the same damn wind too

[Chris-NZ]

Didn't pass me by, but I see no nibbles as yet.......

 

Yeh, I was surprised no-one else picked it up Andy.

The concept is "redundancy"..

 

Chris-NZ

[terryh]

Dave,

 

Bugger, missed that d-oh!!!

 

Matt,

 

Running the 243 with 115 DTAC's at sensible velocities is not a barrel burner. The first one I came up against was George Gardener's about 8 years ago. We all sat and used up rounds out to 1000 yards after a comp. Evryone else was shooting the 'cartrige of the day' the 308 pushing 175g SMK's. At a 1000 yards 'we' were taking 10+ mil to reach 1000 yards, the 243 just over 7 and for windage we had to hold 2+ mil against his .8, this brought home that the 308 is just a glittery brick compared to the wind cheaters

 

Ronin - 6.5x47 no advantage past 650m over a 308. I've found the reduced elevation and windage throughout (about 30% less) has helped my first round hits on UKD's from my 308 days, especially at the longer ranges.

 

Cheers

 

Terry

[Si-Snipe]

Well that will teach me to make a brew mid way writing a reply.....

 

 

The 6.5x47 brass is between £80-90

 

Where have you found it for that? I paid £112!

[Elwood]

If your considering the 6XC or .243 and 115 Dtacs then have a look at the the 6 SLR it's the best of both and very easy to form.

 

The Dtac is a relatively cheap bullet to buy and extremely uniform, if you push it hard enough it the balistics are comparable with the high BC 7mm bullets.

 

There's plenty on the 6 SLR on 6mmBR.com

 

http://www.6mmar.com/Super_LR.html

 

Brass may be expensive for the 6.5x47 but it will last a long time, I'm guessing fom mine that I will get at least 15 reloads from it.

[oaken]

Where have you found it for that? I paid £112!

Ouch, I bet that hurt. I have that to come yet.

 

 

6.5x47 - found that beyond 650mtrs its running out of legs, on a windy day, personally I find it no better than 308 to shoot.

I think that is a bit misleading, at 1000yds the 6.5x47 with a VLD style bullet

requires 9moa less elevation (thats 71/2 feet) and 45 inches less windage at

10mph than my hottest .308, I see that as a distinct advantage not to mention

the reduced recoil

Rup