What is this?

[Ronin]

Ok lads, little test for you, whats this?

 

 

 

 

Those that were there - and you know who you are,,,,, please refrain untill there's been a few replies - cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here it is alongside my AW

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DS1 and DeltaV, I expect correct answers

[kip270]

mmmmm A rifle

[20ppc]

Andy, as I was not there!! Its a Brugger & Thomet sniper rifle with one of their moderators fitted. I assume its in .308.

 

Regards,

 

 

Nick.

[shootingbags]

Andy, as I was not there!! Its a Brugger & Thomet sniper rifle with one of their moderators fitted. I assume its in .308.

 

Regards,

Nick.

Smart arse

[ds1]

S&B PMII scope - Brugger & Thomet APR Sniper Rifle, as 20ppc said.

 

Looks like a lot of the design is borrowed from FN Ultima Ratio rifle.

 

David.

[varminter]

Hi andy......

Looks like FN law enforcements HECTATE rifles series COMMANDO rifle which i am lead to be leave is a 308 caliber!!

I think they also done 300 / 338 lapua mag and the 50 BMG!!!

All the very best................

RAY..............................

[shootingbags]

It's here Brugger & Thomet

[Guest Baldrick]

I doubt that the firm's range of moderators are readily available, but they look good: http://www.brugger-thomet.ch/en/manufactur...vanchor=2110037

[20ppc]

I doubt that the firm's range of moderators are readily available, but they look good: http://www.brugger-thomet.ch/en/manufactur...vanchor=2110037

 

I got one for a .20caliber, 4weeks special order through UK source. (not viking arms)

[Ratwhiskers]

It looks like fun what ever it is......

[Guest Baldrick]

20ppc, how did you rate the B&T moderator against the competition? May I ask how much it cost?

[20ppc]

Baldrick,

 

I've used most of the Mods on the market, including a custom built mod, I have also tested numerous mods with Bruce Potts and we both agree that the B&T is the quietest apart from a new prototype that has just been introduced by PES. The build quality on the B&T is superb and is rated to full autofire with a service interval of 10,000 rounds. I paid £240.00 for the mod 6 months ago. So far no problems with worn baffles!!!!.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

[Guest Baldrick]

That sounds a wee bit tougher than the usual off-the-shelf moderator. And £240 isn't bad.

[DeltaV]

Handy looking rifle Andy. B&T make some decent kit. bet its a hefty price mind !! I like the ambi safety. It should compete well with the other bolt offerings for LE units. The B&T supressors are about the best you can get this side of the pond, a bit heavy for a stalking rifle mind !! built like a tank. David is right, it looks very much like the FN Ultimate Ratio, not to mention the Hekate, The Unique Alipne etc.

I can see the military moving away from bolt action rifles exept in the bigger calibers (.338lapmag etc)

the requirements of the modern battle field sniper tend to be better suited to a semi automatic sniper rifle, many urban areas, target rich environments and the need for rapid deployment and the fluid nature of the battlefield, offensive non covert action. shorter lighter and with higher fire rate. The M10SASS bieng a good example and the Yanks having re vamped a load of the M21's .

I just printed off me chuff chart, 18 working days to push and i'm out of the space race, thats only 6 night shifts, oh how i hate night shifts. good to see you at the Midland, all the best.

Pete

[ds1]

Hi Pete, Andy, everyone, anyone,

 

Now we know what it is.........two rifles in the pics, both very good "police sniper rifles" no doubt, but only the AI is proven military wise. I dont like exposed metal, it bloody cold to touch at -30oC (plastic is gooood). AI`s can be dragged through a hedge backwards with out parts falling off and when you do bust one there is comonality of parts eg. a bolt made in 1997 fits an AI made in 2007 etc. Just think M. Cooper got the design right first time....Meanwhile the Germans were playing at developing high percision (HK PSG1, Walther WA200) white elephants that weighed a ton.

 

Cal....as battlefields change from eastern european woodland to the middle east so the move from 308 to 338 Lap, but try convincing politicians here....big stuff cost more to feed and replace.

 

Sorry not trying to knock anyones kit, just thought I`d make a comparison to the other rifle in the pic and move the discussion on from what is it (we know) to what role does it have.....I think plod rifle....discuss.

 

David

[Ronin]

Guys

 

what can I say,,,

 

 

I didn't expect such a knowledgable crew

 

 

 

I will be testing the B&T rifle for a few days soon and will give a full report for a forthcoming article.

 

However, quickly, my intial thoughts,,,

 

David, very pertinant and relevant points (as always) - the lack of protected steel / alloy would be an issue against the skin in colder climates and it is very heavy even next to the AW.

 

I like the design, but the scope seems a tad high above the boreline?

 

Integral rear but support - good idea.

 

The cheek piece is ajustable as it the butt length.

 

Is it tough enough for mil use - can't answer that one, maybe police spec would be more its intended function.

 

I'll update when I have used it for a few days, but it won't be untill after the comp in CZ.

 

 

Andy

[DeltaV]

It should compete well with the other bolt offerings for LE units.

 

Think you n me talk the same language David !!

The .338LAPMAG is a half way house between the .308 and the .50BMG, it will fullfil both roles. but the rifles that fire it are too big and heavy for urban conflicts, most military sniper rifles weigh more than need be anyway, rapid accurate fire, scoot and shoot is the sniper tactic of todays battle field, hide in the weeds, totaly covert and engage from waaay off is a small % of todays sniper employment. The Designated Marksman, who is trained in basic sniper tactics, ballistics and marksmanship, without the absolute in depth indoctrination involved in the sniper cadre, will find much employment on the battlefields of todays wars. The .223 is however not capable. but if we carry on with that subject we'll get into the intermediate cartridge discussion again eh..

 

These heavy, positional rifles are just the job for LE snipers, who don't realy have to worry about a bunch of Haji's ambushing them if they stay in 1 place more than 10 mins.

 

good looking rifles mind, both the above.

Pete

[Andrew]

Oh, but they are ungraceful looking things... ~Andrew

[Ronin]

Dangerzone

 

without going off topic, the 260 Rem out performs a 308 shot with 155 grainers beyond 500 - 600 yards. Had it been commercially available from AI, it would have been my first choice - but it isn't,,,,,,,yet.

 

 

Andrew,

 

agreed they are not pieces of art to be admired in ones living room. But having had rifles with lovely figured wooden stocks, I know which I would rather have with me when in mucky conditions

[ds1]

Hi Andy,

 

AI`s are available in 260 Rem, - see custom options on Sportings Services web page - along with 243 Win (Gerald has a tight twist one - he`s at the comp) and 7-08.

 

As it happens I`ve gone from 260 Rem back to 308 Winy.

 

David.

[Ronin]

The original plan was to get a 308 for practical / tactical competition, which is why I got the AW.

 

As the AW is effectively a switch barrel, so long as the case head diameters are from the same family, I intend to get another barrel for it, but not just yet as I have other things in the pipeline.

 

The 260Rem would be first choice for an additional barrel. To be honest, when I got the AW, from Graham, my spec was ANY AW in any calibre - as I circumvented the 6 month waiting list and got a cancelled order, so I could have got 308, 300WM or 338 lap - as it happened the 308 was offered and I am well happy with it.

 

Despite the 308's alleged "rainbow" trajectory, the loads I have are very predictable and for the ranges I will be shooting in comps I have more than enough ajustment on the PM11 scope to accomodate this.

 

However, one can never have too many rifles

[6ppc]

DeltaV please dont take this the wrong way as it is a serious question!

I see that before one of the moderators edited your post you mentioned that you are trying to get some interest from military and LE for building rifles for them along with moving into custom AR-15's.You have also told me of other areas you wish to expand in emails along with your existing custom rifle building for private uk and european customers which you say is a rather large market for you.On top of this you have started to manufacture your own actions and accessories along with expanding your business into a retail shop.As you have stated you are quitting your main job to concentrate on the rifle business,and i wish you every success with this.

 

My question though is this,will you be taking on experienced riflesmiths to help you with your workload as surely all of this work is too much for one man?.If you grow to the size that you hope to i would imagine that you would be the biggest custom rifle builder in europe.This is purely me being nosey im afraid as i can not imagine one man being able to cope with such a massive workload and it would be nice to see riflesmithing taken to the next level.

 

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read and answer this.

[Andrew]

Andy: I try to stay out of muck and gun fights these days. ~Andrew

[devilishdave]

Hi Pete, Andy, everyone, anyone,

 

Now we know what it is.........two rifles in the pics, both very good "police sniper rifles" no doubt, but only the AI is proven military wise. I dont like exposed metal, it bloody cold to touch at -30oC (plastic is gooood). AI`s can be dragged through a hedge backwards with out parts falling off and when you do bust one there is comonality of parts eg. a bolt made in 1997 fits an AI made in 2007 etc. Just think M. Cooper got the design right first time....Meanwhile the Germans were playing at developing high percision (HK PSG1, Walther WA200) white elephants that weighed a ton.

 

Cal....as battlefields change from eastern european woodland to the middle east so the move from 308 to 338 Lap, but try convincing politicians here....big stuff cost more to feed and replace.

 

Sorry not trying to knock anyones kit, just thought I`d make a comparison to the other rifle in the pic and move the discussion on from what is it (we know) to what role does it have.....I think plod rifle....discuss.

 

David

 

Having fired the PSG1 and the AI L96 back to back I found the PSG to be the more accurate. As you say though no doubt the L96 is the more robust for military sniper work. The PSG would make a very good police sniper rifle though.

 

How many beer tokens are we looking at for the rifle in the picture at the top of the thread?

 

Dave

 

Dave

[Ronin]

I haven't tested it yet Dave, but when I do, i'll publish the retail price, my guess is it will be more than the AI

 

The rifle was shot at the comp using factory ammo from 140 metres down to 50 in a variety of postitions, when targets were compared it was no better or worse than my AW - I scored a 96/100 and the chap who used the B&T shot a 95/100, I guess we are about equal as far as competancy goes.

 

Both groups measured sub 2 inches, the scoring area was a dappled insert on a dappled deer target so you didn't know where the bullet had struck or where the scoring area was as it was on the reverse of the insert - so consistancy and some idea of where the 10 ring was helped

 

There wasn't enough time to shoot it myself at the comp, but i'll have the rifle for a while to test later in October.

 

 

Andy