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JohnE

.308 Target rounds

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I've only just started reloading for target rifle competitions and had a job getting any info so:

 

my current prefered load is:

 

155.5 Berger Match Grade bullets

Winchester (RUAG once fired) cases

46.0 gns of VV N140 (worked up from 42.5 in both mine and my wifes rifles (30" barrels) with no pressure issues)

Federal N210 primers

Loaded with 15thou jump.

 

Good enough for a 150.22 ex 150.30 in the Welsh Open this weekend over 300, 500 and 600yrds in very windy conditions :blink: .

 

As always, this is for info only and all loads should be worked up to in a safe manner as the response in your rifle may vary considerably...

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I've only just started reloading for target rifle competitions and had a job getting any info so:

 

my current prefered load is:

 

155.5 Berger Match Grade bullets

Winchester (RUAG once fired) cases

46.0 gns of VV N140 (worked up from 42.5 in both mine and my wifes rifles (30" barrels) with no pressure issues)

Federal N210 primers

Loaded with 15thou jump.

 

Good enough for a 150.22 ex 150.30 in the Welsh Open this weekend over 300, 500 and 600yrds in very windy conditions :blink: .

 

As always, this is for info only and all loads should be worked up to in a safe manner as the response in your rifle may vary considerably...

what sort of velocity are you getting ? This is a load i am thinking of trying .

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what sort of velocity are you getting ? This is a load i am thinking of trying .

 

To be honest, I don't know!! I haven't put them through a chrono yet. Suffice to say they were consistent out to 1000 yards (I was holding less than 1 MOA elevation despite wind variations from 5-10 minutes) and quite a lot of buffeting. I also had to come down about 3.5 mins on my usual RUAG / JHC elevation at long range but this may be due to the difference in BC between the Berger and Sierra bullets rather than an increased muzzle velocity.

 

Hope this helps.

 

JohnE

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WHAT ACTION ARE YOU ON ? YOU SAY IT'S A 30" BARREL WHAT MAKE AND TWIST IS IT .SORY FOR ALL THE QUESTIONS BUT I HAVE JUST STARTED WORKING UP A NEW LOAD UP FOR MY NEW 308 WHICH IS A STILLER ACTION AND TRUE FLITE 1IN 14 TWIST 30" BARREL AND I AM TRYING TO SEE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE USING SO GAR I AM AT 3050 FPS WITH 46GR OF RL15 LAPUA BRASS FED 210M PRIMERS AND 155.5 BERGERS WHICH IS GIVING AVERAGE RESULTS BUT ONLY ABOUT .75 MOA AT THE MO .

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WHAT ACTION ARE YOU ON ? YOU SAY IT'S A 30" BARREL WHAT MAKE AND TWIST IS IT .SORY FOR ALL THE QUESTIONS BUT I HAVE JUST STARTED WORKING UP A NEW LOAD UP FOR MY NEW 308 WHICH IS A STILLER ACTION AND TRUE FLITE 1IN 14 TWIST 30" BARREL AND I AM TRYING TO SEE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE USING SO GAR I AM AT 3050 FPS WITH 46GR OF RL15 LAPUA BRASS FED 210M PRIMERS AND 155.5 BERGERS WHICH IS GIVING AVERAGE RESULTS BUT ONLY ABOUT .75 MOA AT THE MO .

 

I have an Accuracy International PalmaMaster with a Krieger 1 in 13 twist 30" barrel. My wife also used this ammo (with the same jump so a .005" increase in OAL) in a Paramount again with a 30" Krieger 1in 13.

 

I wouldn't have thought that a 1 in 14 would make a massive difference over about 200 yrds and the RL15 is only fractionally slower than N140 so that shouldn't make much of a difference. The only thing that might be slightly different is the Match primers which I believe are slightly hotter than the standard ones but again that shouldn't make too much difference.

 

You don't say what jump you are using and I know that this can be part of the art of reloading rather than science so perhaps playing with that might tighten the groups a little?

 

Cheers

 

JohnE

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I have an Accuracy International PalmaMaster with a Krieger 1 in 13 twist 30" barrel. My wife also used this ammo (with the same jump so a .005" increase in OAL) in a Paramount again with a 30" Krieger 1in 13.

 

I wouldn't have thought that a 1 in 14 would make a massive difference over about 200 yrds and the RL15 is only fractionally slower than N140 so that shouldn't make much of a difference. The only thing that might be slightly different is the Match primers which I believe are slightly hotter than the standard ones but again that shouldn't make too much difference.

 

You don't say what jump you are using and I know that this can be part of the art of reloading rather than science so perhaps playing with that might tighten the groups a little?

 

Cheers

 

JohnE

I AM JUMPING 25 THOU AT THE MO .I WILL BE TRYING DIFFERENT JUMPS THIS WEEK END .HAVE YOU TRIED H4895 OR VARGET ?

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I AM JUMPING 25 THOU AT THE MO .I WILL BE TRYING DIFFERENT JUMPS THIS WEEK END .HAVE YOU TRIED H4895 OR VARGET ?

 

'Fraid not. I've pretty much stuck with N140 as i know it works and I could get it relatively easily.

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Your load is one of our default loads with all the 155 grain bullets.

 

I am not surprised that you are getting great accuracy from it.

 

I would estimate your velocity to be in the region of 2930-2990 fps

 

 

regards

 

 

DTA

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John E & Colin

I have a similar load to yours. I have 1-13 Kreiger 30" barrel. l use 46 grs of IMR4895 with a 155.5 Berger bullet. Fed 210 M primers. once fired RWS cases. The c.o.l is 2.860 and chronagraghed at 2998 fps. [200ft above sea level]. In summer comp 400/500/600 l managed 150.24 it seems to replicate your load. It is also very good at 900/1000. l got 47.6/50 at 900 . l cannot find my 1000yd score of my last outing. From what l can remember it was similar to 900. Though as usual Stickledowns fluctuating wind spoilt my day. But load to keep.

Regards to you both Entel

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Back in the day when The Queen's Prize was won at Bisley by a rifleman with an Enfield Envoy (built on a Rifle No4 Mk2 action) we used to shoot Enfield Enforcers and Envoys over relatively short ranges (up to about 500yds) and found for those rifles a load of 43.9 grains of N140 under a 150grain FMJBT was accurate, consistent and kind to both case and the Lee actions . The idle moment competition was shooting Xtra strong mints at 200yds... Ahhhh, nostalgia isn't what it used to be !

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I use:

155gr HBC bullets

46.2gr TR140 (carefully worked up to)

Norma cases

 

From my 7.62x51-proofed 30" Schultz and Larsen barrel I get 2950fps, and scores way, way below the OPs!

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Velocity-wise, I was getting ~2970 in a 32" Broughton with 45.5 of N140 behind a 155 Scenar a few weeks back. Accuracy was ~0.3. There were no pressure signs and I've yet to try 46 or possibly even 46.5.

 

The 46.2 Varget load was averaging 2998 and slightly worse accuracy, though still under 1/2min. Surprisingly, the ES was about 40% worse with the 140!

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Velocity-wise, I was getting ~2970 in a 32" Broughton with 45.5 of N140 behind a 155 Scenar a few weeks back. Accuracy was ~0.3. There were no pressure signs and I've yet to try 46 or possibly even 46.5.

 

The 46.2 Varget load was averaging 2998 and slightly worse accuracy, though still under 1/2min. Surprisingly, the ES was about 40% worse with the 140!

Good to see that there can be excellent accuracy without absolute velocity,or varget!

It is just possible that the factors are interactional,wrt ES,but it's more likely that with a lower ES accuracy would be even better-though that isn't a given. AT .3,it's not a necessity either!

 

gbal

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Hello. I've been getting good results using 46 grns RS52 powder pushing 155 SMK Palma's. RWS brass, CCI BR2 primers, 15 thou jump into my Paramount actioned 32 inch Border 1:12 twist barrel. They settle down comfortably at 3000 fps (chronied) and are very accurate.

 

Cheers..

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Back in the day when The Queen's Prize was won at Bisley by a rifleman with an Enfield Envoy (built on a Rifle No4 Mk2 action) we used to shoot Enfield Enforcers and Envoys over relatively short ranges (up to about 500yds) and found for those rifles a load of 43.9 grains of N140 under a 150grain FMJBT was accurate, consistent and kind to both case and the Lee actions . The idle moment competition was shooting Xtra strong mints at 200yds... Ahhhh, nostalgia isn't what it used to be !

 

 

These and similar TR rifles of that era had very 'tight' barrels, usually ~ 0.298" bore and 0.3072" or smaller groove dimensions (compared to the 0.300" / 0.3080" used on most commercial precision rifles and FTR rifles and others fitted with standard bore 30-cal match barrels). Although today's custom built and/or rebarrelled TR / Palma rifles for sling shooting are less 'tight', the norm is to use something below SAAMI dimensions.

 

Maximum loads for powders in the N140 / VarGet etc bracket for many TR rifles, especially older ones, can be as much as three grains down on those quoted here and elsewhere. So. it's not just the rear locking No.4 action that's the limiting factor, although that doesn't help any. The NRA 155gn match 308 ammo is loaded specifically for a modern TR rifle and will give excess pressures in some elderly examples, and conversely disappointing MVs in most modern sporting and custom rifle barrels. (The older RWS ammo failed to produce 2,600 fps by quite a margin in a 22-inch barrel Howa 1500 Varmint I tried it in which means it was running around 150-200 fps down on where it should be after taking the short barrel into account.)

 

So, these factors should be taken into account by anybody handloading for a TR rifle, or an FTR rifle based on one with the original barrel still in situ. So far as 1 in 14-inch twist goes, this is just right for the original 155gn Sierra MK (#2155) at TR rifle MVs, but is on the slow side for the current Palma MK (Sierra p/n 2156) and most other 155gn match bullets which are noticeably longer than the old 155 SMK. It will stabilise them, but will depress the effective BCs due to an inadequate gyroscopic spin rate so they lose speed at a greater rate and may not shoot well at long ranges.

 

It's this barrel issue that is behind the NRA / RUAG spat over the final year's lot of RWS match TR ammo. It was loaded a little on the warm side for tight barrel rifles and gave pressure problems in the 2014 Imperial Meeting. The remainder was withdrawn and returned to RUAG as unfit for purpose, but as testing showed it was within CIP pressure limits in a standard dimension test barrel, it was repackaged and put on sale as .308 Win match cartridges under a different name. When TR shooters here bought it, the previous pressure issues resurfaced and the NRA has issued a warning against using it in a 'normal' TR rifle.

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What is Your opinion on the new GGG 155gr ammo used by NRA? In my 27 inch Sabatti Tactical Sport it produces brilliant groups (~0.3 MOA @100m) with MV of 850m/s (2800fps) but I'm wondering what will happen further down range...

Michal

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The fact that as of this (next?) year, the NRA is reducing the ring sizes on the standard target is I would say an endorsement of the GGG Match version. Scores in last year's Imperial Meeting were extraordinarily high especially in the shorter distance matches.

At 2,800 fps MV, the old Sierra MK (the 2155 model) will shoot OK out to 1,000 yards being a very well-mannered bullet and tolerant of trans and sub sonic transitions, but will be a bit 'short of legs'. With a G7 BC of 0.214 average, speeds / wind drift at 600 and beyond are calculated as:

 

600 .............. 1,645 fps / 3.5 inches

800 ............. 1,327 fps / 6.9 inches

900 ............. 1,182 fps / 9.2 inches

1,000 .......... 1,068 fps / 12.1 inches

under standard conditions (29.92 inches mercury pressure and 59-deg F air temperature). The wind drift is per 1.0 mph change in a 90-deg crosswind.

So, no problems at 600 and even 800. At 900 you're well into the worst of the trans zone speed range which usually increases dispersion overall, also bullet movement in any wind shift. At 1,000 you'll be subsonic on any low lying range in any UK weather conditions, but might just see them stay supersonic on Diggle and Blair Athol in heatwave temperatures. In any event, the old 155 SMK behaves well going subsonic so you'll stay on the full-size NRA target frame OK - but you'd be blown around a lot with any wind shifts going.

You'll also need 39-40 MOA adjustment available on the scope from a 100 yard elevation zero.

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Thank You! I shall try it at longer ranges then.

I'm torn between those and 175SMK GGG which @820m/s MV give me 0.4-0.5MOA@100m but should help a bit with my non existent wind reading skills. My colleagues use and love 180 and 190gr GGG's (780-790m/s MV) but I'm not sure my 11,5 twist barrel can handle them. Again that requires testing but with lack of time and access to ranges longer than 100m is difficult.

Michal

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4 hours ago, MichalS said:

Thank You! I shall try it at longer ranges then.

I'm torn between those and 175SMK GGG which @820m/s MV give me 0.4-0.5MOA@100m but should help a bit with my non existent wind reading skills. My colleagues use and love 180 and 190gr GGG's (780-790m/s MV) but I'm not sure my 11,5 twist barrel can handle them. Again that requires testing but with lack of time and access to ranges longer than 100m is difficult.

Michal

 

Which 180 and 190gn bullets are used in the ggg loads? If Sierra MKs, the 180gn is (like the 168gn SMK) a short-range bullet.

The 190gn SMK is an 'old-fashioned' rather blunt match design, but a good one nonetheless and which like the original 155 model is very trans and sub-sonic transition tolerant making it a good long-range choice for those whose rifles are unable to produce optimal velocities due to barrel lengths.

If it is that bullet, your 11.5 twist barrel is fine. At 2,600 fps MV in an 11.5 twist rifling pitch rate, it has an Sg value of 1.52 - absolutely optimal - in standard ballistic conditions. (Bullet OAL in relation to calibre has a greater effect on the required spin rate than weight and the elderly 190 is a relatively short bullet in comparison to many more recently introduced bullets in this weight bracket.) 

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They are indeed Sierra MK's. I will skip the 180 and try the 190gr then - thank You! I attach 100m groups of GGG shot from my 27" Sabatti Tactical Sport. For the price (both rifle and ammo) it's hard to complain...

target_image.jpg

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I shot my first serious competition this weekend and I'm mighty impressed with GGG's 175gr ammo. I include 300m (5 shots, 328y) and 800m (10 shots, 875y) groups, the 800m one includes a fair bit of wind... Black ("9") is 1.25MOA@300m and 1.4 MOA @800m.

Michal

GGG 300m.jpg

GGG 800m.jpg

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for info only took some load data from experienced shooters in my club and the goto  155 grain 308 recipe was 42.5 gr of VV N135  got lots of negative posts from this forum as this was unsuitable for this bullet , seen the new LAPUA website and this powder is recommended as one to try for the 155's just goes to show there are no experts out there just lots of opinions . also posted on here the weights of various 17 hmr cases regarding quality control and then it turns up in an article in sporting rifle magazine hope our info and findings arent being used to further other peoples careers.

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11 hours ago, Richiew said:

for info only took some load data from experienced shooters in my club and the goto  155 grain 308 recipe was 42.5 gr of VV N135  got lots of negative posts from this forum as this was unsuitable for this bullet , seen the new LAPUA website and this powder is recommended as one to try for the 155's just goes to show there are no experts out there just lots of opinions . 

Where have you seen Vihtavuori recommend N135 in this application? That a powder grade is quoted in loading tables means it can be used, but it may or may not be optimal.

N135 is the canister version of Viht's bulk propellant for standard 7.62X51mm NATO ball rounds and is optimal for that cartridge in NATO STANAG spec barrels and chambers - ie a slightly undersize (compared to SAAMI .30's 0.300/0.3080" bore/groove ) bullet loaded into a heavy case and within the 143-146gn weight range.

It is usable with a heavier 155gn bullet - but that is neither optimal nor recommended. As a short-range load it'll be fine and its slightly lower loads please the penny pinchers.

One just needs to look at Viht's 308 Win data for the 155gn Sierra MK and the maximum loads shown for N100-series powders to see the internal ballistics relationships:

N135 Max load gives  2,674 fps

N140 Max load gives 2,712 fps

N150 Max load gives 2,790 fps

For bullet weights up to 150gn N135 generally gives higher MVs than N140, its faster burning rate better suited to this application. From and including 155gn, this is reversed and Viht doesn't show any data for N135 for bullets heavier than 185gn, and in this case for one bullet only out of several covered.

 

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Hi All 

seen this from a link on the lapua web page to its other partners of the nammo group ie lapua berger sk and viht powders , under the N135 info -quote [  if you have never tried N135  with a 155gr open tip match bullet its time to do it ! ] . why would a powder manufacturer of such good reputation put in its tables something which isnt suitable . Also why is Varget quoted for just about everything , is this some kind of wonder powder ? .when choosing powders whats the holy grail to be looking at, is it FPS or going with the accuracy load quoted  . Berger manual covers lots of powders for each bullet weight  , are a lot of these powders therefore unsuitable  even though their burn rates seem to be very mismatched although bulk density does make the difference .

viht web accuracy loads for 155s =N540/N140

                                                            170s= N140

                                                              185s =N140 /N550

Got the flak jacket ready 

                                                                         Cheers

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I'm not saying it's unsuitable, rather sub-optimal  as it was designed for a lower bullet weight. But it's still a free country (just) and you're welcome to use any powder you fancy in the cartridge as long as it's safe, and N135 is safe enough as long as the manufacturer's loadings are adhered to. You won't find any serious long-range 308 shooting competitors using it though. 

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