F class actions

[Elwood]

I'm starting to consider buying a F class stock, the rifle I'm currently using for F class is a AICS and a Surgeon WSM action. The question I'm asking myself is should I buy an action with closer tolerances (Barnard/Bat) to go with the F class stock?

 

My line of thought is that every little helps, but if you can't call a wind within 2 mph then that advantage is lost when shooting beyond 600 yards? I notice that Darrel shoots bench rest with a AI rifle which doesn't have bench rest tolerances! and he does pretty well.

 

I also like the idea of being able to take the barrel and action out of the F class stock and using it in the AICS from time to time when I need it for stalking or tactical type competitions ( not that I do any ) but I dread the thought of turning up to a British Sporting Rifle Club Stickledown day with my SEB rest and F class rifle, I would never hear the last of it

 

Would I encounter any problems using the Surgeon WSM action that is magazine fed in a single shot F class stock?

 

Any thoughts on the Robertson GB F class stock?

[Laurie]

Ian,

 

you'd spend a lot of money to get not much improvement. The really stiff single-shot actions let you load the ammo up to maximum pressures and still produce small groups, so you might lose a little velocity, which might or might not be an issue depending on the cartridge and the distances you plan to shoot over. If .308W, it is on the edge ballistically at 1,000yd, so anything that raises the terminal velocity helps to get hit-consistency. However, assuming you're using .308W and assuming you're shooting beyond 800yd,you may be able to box clever by using heavier and high-BC bullets depending on the barrel's twist rate.

 

There are some factory magazine rifles being used successfully at long ranges in F/TR at national level - Alpine Uniques mainly - and there are a fair few Remington 700 based rifles in use. In F-Open, it's entirely single-shot match actions - BAT, Barnard, RPA Quadlock etc.

 

Accuracy-wise 80% or so comes from the barrel and the bullet, so if you're going to spend money to improve this performance aspect, that's the first place to start.

[Ronin]

If you really want to be competative, I think a single shot action is the way to go (not probably what you wanted to hear mate)

 

Ground up build, something 7mm...

 

Action - Barnard, BAT, Borden would be my first choices.

 

Stock - GB F Class, Manners, F Class, Laminate wood (er..... I have a lovely Greg West Cherry Laminate sitting doing nothing thats inletted for a Barnard P)

 

Barrel - Broughton, Bartlein, Krieger, Border etc

 

 

 

easy way of spending 3 - 4 big ones...

[baldie]

If you are going balls out for an "f" class rig, give Russ Gall a ring, and have a look at one of his actions. I looked at two a couple of weeks ago.....and they make a BAT look sick.

 

As i,m sure you already know..."f" class guns are like 1000 yards br rigs. They are built to relieve their owners of a substantial amount of wedge. If you cant read the wind.....they aren,t worth diddley squat.

The fortune they cost would be better spent on ammunition, to gain wind reading experience.

[foxing2night]

Hi Ian,

Me personaly i would do a couple of seasons, I think that this would give you a chance to get a better grounding so to speak,,,

I think that it all depends upon how far you want to take it,,

Reading between the lines and after talking to a lot of people over the years

, it would seem to me that f-class is one big money pit?????

 

Better to spend time and money entering as many comps as you can and learn all the in,s and outs,,,

Then you can get back to some of the people that we have on our site, such as laurie, ronnin,

osok,and a few others, with a better understanding of your needs??

 

Hope this is of some help???

 

Darrel

[foxing2night]

If you are going balls out for an "f" class rig, give Russ Gall a ring, and have a look at one of his actions. I looked at two a couple of weeks ago.....and they make a BAT look sick.

 

As i,m sure you already know..."f" class guns are like 1000 yards br rigs. They are built to relieve their owners of a substantial amount of wedge. If you cant read the wind.....they aren,t worth diddley squat.

The fortune they cost would be better spent on ammunition, to gain wind reading experience.

Bloody hell mate ,, you must be fast on them keys

[Elwood]

Cheers guys.

 

This isn't something I'm looking at doing at this present moment, probably over the winter period.

 

My main concern about using my Surgeon action to go into an out and out F class stock would be that if I ever decided to go down the Barnard/Bat/RG/etc then I would have one F class stock inlet for a Rem 700 action that would be pretty hard to sell on? Laurie and Andy I will have a chat to you both a Blair Athol.

 

I think I could near enough break up the rifle I have at the moment and that should pretty much cover the components for a F class rifle. The 2nd hand value of a Surgeon action and AICS 2.0 would near enough cover the cost of the F class stock and action, I already have the barrels, trigger, rings and scope, so it's just a matter of paying someone to glue it all together.

 

Dave and Darrel, good advice regarding shooting and learning the wind.

[Ronin]

Forgot to mention Lawton and RG actions..

 

 

Baldie, as succinct and to the point as ever

 

 

Apart from speaking to "The Wind Jedi" (BD)

 

It would do no harm to seek out some books on sailing, hangliding and also have a peek at the Long Range Research Centre (a site dedicated to extreme long range shooting, by "Later" on SH)

 

However last time I checked the site was down....

 

Consider this:

 

what you have already will serve you well.

 

The addition of a "Ski" bipod and 7mm/270 (300) chamber throated for 180's (properly throated not short throated to accomodate 2.900" max OAL as you have now) and you would have a very good (read competative) single shot rifle.

 

Or

 

 

Strip off skins and make a skid plate for the base that fits into the forward sling fitment...

 

 

Switch the back to original barrel you have multi shot.............

 

Barrel change would take less than 5 mins.

 

 

Cost saving.............000's

[Elwood]

Andy, would any of the single shot actions fit into the AICS ? My line of thinking is to use a single shot action in both F class stock and AICS, that way I have the best of both worlds.

[Ronin]

Short actions that would probably fit; all on Rem 700 footprint:

 

Lawton

 

BAT

 

Stiller (round action variety)

 

Barnard S

 

 

 

Ive probably missed some - I fininshed late and its early!

 

 

You also need to remember that the AICS is bedded for the Surgeon WSM action so there may (would) be an issue with recoil lug - you would have to source a lug that is the same size as the Surgeon in order to use the stock in both actions and get best performance from the single shot.

 

If you were thinking of BAT action you have choice of where recoil lug is fitted (washer style or dedicated small lug under action thats removable) this would not be compatable with the AICS (dedicated BAT lug without machining a second lug recess - weakening the stock)

 

 

Also, if you are considering a 284 Win or something along those lines throated for 180's you would not be able to eject a loaded round easily (without bolt removal) in a short action - not necessarily an issue with F Class but may be a gripe for you.

 

 

Also, having slept on this ; if you wanted a dedicated rifle for F Class, you have two options Open and FTR - both are "arms races" although the winner of the FTR last year used what some would class as "low budget" stock to win, he is an extremely gifted shot and wind caller.

 

 

You need to decide FTR or Open.

 

If FTR - hand on heart I think another Surgeon action or replacement bolt would enable you to be competative, the Surgeons are certainly good enough.

 

Second rambling thought.

 

Get an additional bolt (.473" bolt face) and have a barrel done in the calibre you want - use that and see how you go on.

 

 

Thought three (now I am tired), consider selling current rifle and fund ground up build if its F open you want to go for.

 

 

 

My head is hurting now

[baldie]

The surgeon single shot action does, and it has tighter bolt tolerances than the repeater version. Here,s an "f" class rig i built on one. The stock is a robertson.

 

 

[Ronin]

Now THAT, looks nice

 

 

and a Surgeon Single shot action would also do you very well in Open or FTR....... and I am pretty certain it has the same external dimensions as the WSM action; so would "drop in" to your existing stock.

 

Dave correct me on that one?

[baldie]

Yes its still a short action Andy. The WSM action however, has a shorter bolt stop. Its still in the same position on the action, but allows the wsm bolt to come further back. The s/s is exactly the same as a short action, apart from the tolerances being tighter.

Same as all s/actions however...it wont pull a long round without removing the bolt. Not really an issue in an "F"class gun however. This one was a 6.5 x .284.

[Ronin]

That may be the possible solution to the "problem"

[Elwood]

Or option number 17 ! buy 1 F class stock and 1 tactical/practical type stock and have them inlet for the same action? It sounds like I would have to move away from the AICS which is a shame as I do like them, but this might be the opportunity I have been looking for to buy a KMW Sentinel clouds and silver linings and all that.

 

Andy/Dave the rifle will be for F class open. I will try the 7WSM one more time as I have what is needed in the way of barrels and reloading equipment. After this barrel burning competition I think I will look very closely at the .284 Shehane ( I like the idea of being able to practise with the rifle) although I think the two spare Bartleins will have to go as they aren't long enough.

 

If I understand both your posts previous to this one, it would appear that in order to go for the .284 with 180 VLD's, it has to be a long action if I want to be able eject rounds without removing the bolt, unless I use the Surgeon single shot? Interestingly I did hear that Berger are producing a 7mm 175 grain VLD with a higher BC than the 180's.

[baldie]

The single shot surgeon wont eject a loaded round of that length either Ian. I dont know of a short action that will. It will eject a fired case no problem.

 

Kmw sentinel ?

 

I,ve more chance of shagging Claudia Schiffer.......

 

The yanks are sat on Terry,s doorstep, watching the UPS men come and go......

 

.284 shehane ? ....hmmmm.

Dies available ? or is it a custom set ?

For the extra 3 grains of powder it holds over the .284 win, i would have thought the velocity increase was not worth it, and actually recovarable by using reloder 17.

There will be another " hot ticket" in a couple of months. The "f" class boys change like they change their socks.

[Elwood]

So presumably as the WSM action and single shot are identical I could use a Surgeon single shot action in either the AICS and a dedicated F class stock? I think I can deal with not being able to eject a loaded round by having to remove the bolt.

[baldie]

Yes Ian.

 

Just to throw another spanner in the works now.

We should take delivery, this week, or early next, of the accuracy international AICS system specifically desingned for the surgeon XL action. This opens up a whole new category of rifles for those that love the AI stock.

These wont be availble as an aftermarket part, ,.....they will be kept for our own actions initially, but will go on general sale eventually.

The XL is a great action, and is available with .308, magnum, and .338 bolt faces.

Grey matter ticking over yet ?

 

I,ve just shotblasted one this afternoon, chambered in 7mmSAUM. It will get a coat of paint, then back to its owner for testing.

[Elwood]

Yes Ian.

 

Just to throw another spanner in the works now.

We should take delivery, this week, or early next, of the accuracy international AICS system specifically desingned for the surgeon XL action. This opens up a whole new category of rifles for those that love the AI stock.

These wont be availble as an aftermarket part, ,.....they will be kept for our own actions initially, but will go on general sale eventually.

The XL is a great action, and is available with .308, magnum, and .338 bolt faces.

Grey matter ticking over yet ?

 

I,ve just shotblasted one this afternoon, chambered in 7mmSAUM. It will get a coat of paint, then back to its owner for testing.

 

Not looking, not looking , not looking not looking, not looking , not looking not looking, not looking , not looking not looking, not looking , not looking, not looking, not looking , not looking

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok I'm off to google Surgeon XL actions

 

 

B#####d

[baldie]

 

I,d make a good pimp.....

[Jingzy]

If you are going balls out for an "f" class rig, give Russ Gall a ring, and have a look at one of his actions. I looked at two a couple of weeks ago.....and they make a BAT look sick.

 

I agree with Dave here. I have seen some of his actions recently and I have to say, he is going to be very big in the rifle world. The "Callum" has also given them a very high vote of confidence.

 

Cheers

[Ronin]

Ian

 

 

this may help put things into perspective:

 

 

My own XL next to a S/A Surgeon that I bought for me but ended up elswhere...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dave and I have built our own 338's on the XL action, they are very stiff and handle full house loads well.

 

In a .473 bolt face they would not be an issue with it being repeater.

 

One moot point - barrel OD at shank needs to be a recommended 1.3" not the standard 1.2" that most other actions have....

[ChrisF]

Actually , there is another action made by Surgeon , its simply a longer version of the SA , its called the 1086 I think , its a round bottom rem700 foot print , with .473 or .532 bolt face .

 

Its not as heavy as the XL , just another option .

 

Later Chris

[baldie]

Yes Chris, indeed there is. Surgeon brought out, basically a remmy clone, in both short and long action, a while back. They are cheaper actions, but require surgeon,s own bolt on rail , which has their own spacings. This pushes the price back up a little, and at the side of the solid one piece actions, they dont look so good, as you dont get all the best features. This is the main reason we dont import them.

[Elwood]

Cheers for the photos Andy, it certainly does give a good comparison between the two actions. Use the XL action and your 2 inches closer to the target, got anything bigger

 

It would appear to me that the sensible and possibly cheapest option would be to use the Surgeon single shot action with a WSM bolt face, knowing that I would have to remove the bolt to extract a round if using it for sporting purposes. This does of course create a bit of problem if I decide to go for the .284 at a later date, but I will cross that bridge if and when.

 

Now I might just have to pester Mr Russo to make me a F class stock.