Machining Tuition

[Ronin]

Right new topic for today.

 

 

I am considering purchasing a lathe for my own use to gain enough skill to work on MY rifles (barrel tenon threads, chambering and crown) etc

 

 

I did metalwork at school and was ok with the lathes there,,,,,,but that was over twenty five years ago.

 

 

Does anyone here have the knowledge, time (and patience) to assist? Or should I seek a proper qualification at a tech colledge?

 

I haven't looked into what lathe to buy, what size three pahse or otherwise, so it is all "in the air" at present - as is obtaining an RFD, which may be a stumbling block, if my current employer objects.

 

 

Any assistance will be gratefully accepted, as many of you know, i'm in the North west so it might be that it is logistically impossible for a visit to your workshop. any advice on what books to read or where to get the best help is welcome

 

 

 

Ta

 

 

 

Andy

[col48]

Right new topic for today.

 

 

I am considering purchasing a lathe for my own use to gain enough skill to work on MY rifles (barrel tenon threads, chambering and crown) etc

 

 

I did metalwork at school and was ok with the lathes there,,,,,,but that was over twenty five years ago.

 

 

Does anyone here have the knowledge, time (and patience) to assist? Or should I seek a proper qualification at a tech colledge?

 

I haven't looked into what lathe to buy, what size three pahse or otherwise, so it is all "in the air" at present - as is obtaining an RFD, which may be a stumbling block, if my current employer objects.

 

 

Any assistance will be gratefully accepted, as many of you know, i'm in the North west so it might be that it is logistically impossible for a visit to your workshop. any advice on what books to read or where to get the best help is welcome

 

 

 

Ta

 

 

 

Andy

 

hi Andy

 

i have a few DVDs on gun smithing you are quit welcome to borrow them(sorry i mean lend)

 

Colin

[Ronin]

Thanks Col, I will PM or e-mail you.

 

As I say, it is not for me going into business, just a hobby idea.

[col48]

Thanks Col, I will PM or e-mail you.

 

As I say, it is not for me going into business, just a hobby idea.

 

 

 

hi Andy

 

it matters not to me, just glad to be able to help out

 

Colin

[Vermincinerator]

Hi Andy

I dont balme you for taking that route, we have of course disscused this before and the reasons why.

I will be going off line soon ( my daughters want to go online ) so i will email you a load of stuff tomorrow.

I bought a Colchester Master lathe this time last year off ebay for £250 and finished re-building it about a month ago spending about £750 including conversion to a single phase motor, all parts from ebay.

I also bought an Elliot Omnimill universal miller fully tooled £500 again from ebay. although a 3 phase machine it was a simple motor change so i can plug it into the domestic supply.

Regarded by many as the best book on the subject, "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Precision Rifle Barrel Fitting" is very good i have a copy and can vouch for that.

It shows all the set ups you need in an engineering drawing form complete with a text on the set up.

Also if you send $25 dollars to Richard Franklin he will send you his 2 DVDs one on pillar bedding about 2 hours long and the other on Gun related Metalworking about 4 hours long, including how to fit a sako extractor.

 

Ian.

[Vermincinerator]

Just seen cols reply, he has the Richard Franklin DVDs, i was going to mention that but thought that it would ill mannered to suggest he lend them to you before he offered them himself.

 

Ian.

PS. I have the Darrel Holland Pillar Bedding and Rifle Barrel Fitting videos but they are all out on loan at the moment and there other members who i have promised them to, so i will put you in the queue

[craigyboy]

Do you need an RFD to work on rifles? I assume so. This is a subject that I thought about lately, there isnt a single gunsmith in this country who can even thread a barrel or crown a barrel and I have thought about buying a lathe and starting to do small things to see how it goes, maybe do bits and pieces for mates etc I wouldnt want to do it full time as I already have enough to deal with in my job at the moment, but it would be nice to be a bit more self sufficent and learn new skills, I have a had an interest in machining for a long time even before I got into rilfes I was going to buy a mini lathe to make parts for my bikes, just something about the precision in gunsmithing that I really like. What criteria do I need to get my RFD? I wouldnt be planning on doing this for a couple more years seeing this post has just fueled the fire abit.

[Ronin]

Thanks Ian

 

I know you have experience in this subject but are a little too far to travel to for a chat and brew!

 

The DVD would be most welcome and I'll order the book, do you happen to know the ISBM number?

 

Waterstones will just look blank at me without it!

[col48]

Just seen cols reply, he has the Richard Franklin DVDs, i was going to mention that but thought that it would ill mannered to suggest he lend them to you before he offered them himself.

 

Ian.

PS. I have the Darrel Holland Pillar Bedding and Rifle Barrel Fitting videos but they are all out on loan at the moment and there other members who i have promised them to, so i will put you in the queue

 

 

hi Ian

 

take him off your list i will send him mine up,(if you know what i mean)

 

i all so have

accurizing the factory rifle book

 

the complete illustrated guide to precision rifle fitting book

 

and sight alignment trigger control and the big lie

 

 

you are welcome to lend them as well

 

 

Colin

[Redfox]

You can get them cheaper from Amazon, particularly .com. I have bought quite a number of books from them in the states that are not listed here.

As for setting up to do it yourself, I would suggest the outlay would not be justified, not just a lathe but the tooling, the machinery to support the tooling ( grinding to sharpen / change profile etc) the skills you would need to aquire are many not just turning.

Ian has done it for years professionally and so a lot of this comes easy to him, but to aquire the skill and experience takes considerable time. Also the vast majority of machining today is CNC / computer controlled with laser measuring and positioning, without 20 yrs experience in conventional turning you couldnt get anywhere near what they are capable of in a fraction of the time.

Plus a very clear understanding of mechanical engineering and what exactly you are trying to achieve is an absolute necessity.

Making the odd screw or pin is one thing, chipping lumps out of an expensive barrel is something completely different and one mistake the barrel is scrap.

The place you do it in needs to be temperature controlled, with some form of humidity control to prevent your expensive kit rusting literally over night, measuring equipment that is any good is not cheap and you need to know how to use that too.

I have spent the last 45+ yrs in engineering and had access to the best of kit ( still have access to some) and I would not even bother to do it when I can go to someone who is doing it all the time and get a guaranteed result, better to spend the time shooting.

Redfox

[craigyboy]

yeah see your point there, maybe ill just keep dreaming and buy that mini lathe to tinker about at silly things, I have a decent understanding of mechanical enginerring as I done it at collage before my dad lured me away to work in the family business but probably not to the extent that I would need, I am more used to timber and bricks than steel now. Well we can all dream.

[Vermincinerator]

Redfox,

you will agree that there is a certain amount of pride in "doing it yourself" and you are absolutely right about the ancillary equipment but with Norman and Callum's prices now starting at £5000 plus you can see where Andy is coming from.

If he is thinking of doing more then one rifle ( £10,000???) the outlay could well be justified.

I have thousands of pounds of used quality (you know all the good makes ) tooling, chucks vices, collets etc. bought for hundreds from ebay but you need to know what to look for.

For instance you can pick up a good used Burnerd chuck for about £50 where a new one will cost 400.

I cannot agree with you about the skill involved, chambering and threading a barrel is first year apprentice stuff ( or at least it was When i was an apprentice ) so i think with a few days tuition Andy could be chambering his own barrels, the other metalwork involved is of course a different matter, such as installing a Sako extractor its not that difficult once shown how.

The difficulties which come from not having any experience are such things that can only be learned through many years in the trade, set ups, tool geometry, feeds and speeds, techniques, touch and feel etc. you know what i mean.

I can see where you are coming from Redfox and respect your choice to have the work done by one of the many craftsman building rifles today but i will encourage anyone who has the right aptitude to have a go, if they are sucessful then great if not then at least they have tried

 

Ian.

[Vermincinerator]

craigy, you dont need to be an RFD to work on your rifles including re-barrelling and calibre change as long it ie within the confines of your FAC.

 

Ian.

[Redfox]

I agree with what your saying Ian, just trying to open his eyes to it not being just a buy a lathe, ten mins tuition and off you go. The end result wouldnt match the cheapest of factory jobs, in that case.

I was thinking more along the lines that you can get the main work done as Col does by a machine shop that knows what your trying to do and at reasonable cost and timescale.

I suspect Andy wants to do a good deal more than that, which requires a lot more knowledge and practice.

Mind you unlike me, he is young enough to do it if he really wants to, in which case good luck.

Redfox

[Ronin]

Redfox

 

you appear to have seen through me

 

I would love to have the knowledge and skill to work on my own rifles - starting with a re-barrel and then in the future be able to produce a rifle that wins competitions - I don't presume to know anything but the smallest amount of knowledge at the moment, but this has been a dream of mine for a long time.

 

I may be forced to alter my tack in the non too distant future and I am attempting to plan for that possibility. I already do a mean bedding job that has altered the accuracy of several rifle (for the better)

 

Now, I want to try and learn how to centre a barrel, cut a tenon, thread and chamber. If it takes me two years before I am good enough to do my own rifles I will at least have "had a go"

 

As you rightly say, I'm dumb and stupid (sorry young enough) to do it.......

[Ronin]

[Redfox]

Definitely not dumb Andy, but you are young enough. I am still always questioniong things, but dont have enough time to do all of them now. I think equaliser is right in suggesting Lancaster Uni, sadly Morecambe and Lancaster CFE has little need to train engineers now, but might run a foundation course you could enjoy.

I'm sure there would be a need for that sort of work and it really ought not to impinge on your day job if you know what I mean.

If you go for it I do wish you good luck it is a good challenge to take up.

Redfox

[325WSM]

Right new topic for today.

I am considering purchasing a lathe for my own use to gain enough skill to work on MY rifles (barrel tenon threads, chambering and crown) etc

I did metalwork at school and was OK with the lathes there,,,,,,but that was over twenty five years ago.

Does anyone here have the knowledge, time (and patience) to assist? Or should I seek a proper qualification at a tech college?

 

I haven't looked into what lathe to buy, what size three phase or otherwise, so it is all "in the air" at present - as is obtaining an RFD, which may be a stumbling block, if my current employer objects.

Any assistance will be gratefully accepted, as many of you know, I'm in the North west so it might be that it is logistically impossible for a visit to your workshop. any advice on what books to read or where to get the best help is welcome

Ta

Andy

 

 

 

I suppose I do what you are suggesting you want to do - play at being a rifle/gunsmith.

 

I enjoy my shooting all the more having put together a rifle or shotgun or even just making the stock for it. There is a satisfaction in DIY at any level and also a great sense of achievement.

 

Unless you are one of the few you must accept that you will never be good at it just mediocre, and only that in time - those that are good are not just talented they are gifted and are very thin on the ground.

 

I have a hobby workshop but can cope with most things. Its very much a shoestring operation and most of the 'achievements' are not so much by way of the machines but by way of the hand work that is even more important to a quality job. Making a magazine box may only takes 10 mins with a saw and sander but 3-4 hours at the vice. Making an ejector trip for a Purdey takes about an hour on the mill but at least 6-7hours hand finishing the machined part with file and paper.

 

RFD status isn't required for self work but if you do anything for anyone else you could well be breaking the law. Even covering up a scratch on someone else's rifle could land you in trouble but as with most things there are ways and means (legal ones) that may afford a little leeway.

 

If I can be of any help by elaborating on what and how I do what I do PM me and we can have a chat.

[Vermincinerator]

325,

Putting together a high quality rifle from an assembled group of parts does not require talent but does require skill and understanding

On the otherhand custom making trigger guards, bottom metal, quarter ribs, barrel bands etc or fitting a skeletonised grip cap so it looks like it has "grown" out of the wood requires both talent and skill.

I have seen pictures of your stockwork and would like to see one in the flesh, but from the pictures i believe you to have both talent and skill in the excecution of your work.

In my opinion, quality filing is what seperates the men from the boys and alas to say, since the filing and fitting tests of the first year of my apprenticeship, i have not, or needed to do any precision filing or fitting, something i would like to change in the future, with a view to some projects i have in mind.

 

Ian.

[325WSM]

Thanks for the compliment Ian.

 

Lets just say I have an aptitude rather than talent for DIY whether it be rifles, shotguns or housebuilding. I also built my own house - well perhaps around 85% of it but I succeed in getting a reasonable job only because I can afford to spend the necessary time that someone earning his living by the same work cannot because of profit margins.

[Vermincinerator]

WSM,

Time is the essence my friend, but i actually find it hard to slow down having worked in an industrial environment for over 25 years.

Producing a finsihed component of high quality and accuracy within an alloted time was the norm and a difficult habit to get out of, but i am gettting there.

I think we are from the same mould mate, this sort of aptitude for anything technical coming quite easy.

Most talented people i know are always modest about their skills but also in awe of those who's skills they have no knowledge of.

I have a friend who makes Banjo's and Viloins including the tools that are needed to manufacture these items, and although i have no interest in musical instruments the quality of his work is outstanding.

He cant see what all the fuss is about!

 

Ian.

[Ronin]

WSM,

 

thanks for the advice, as I said at the start of the post, I wish to learn how to machine tenon, thread, and chamber - I don't presume to be able to "make" parts from scratch. I have also seen examples of your work (muzzle brakes) and aggree you have skill and talent.

 

What I propose to do is learn how to do the aforementioned techniques and then work on my own rifles - subject to legalities - then and only then when I had enough "skill" would I consider starting on my own.

 

All I wish to do at present is learn, I would not even begin to say I would be competant in a year.

 

Thanks for the offer of assistance, I will e-mail you in due course.

 

I have already had a very kind PM that was most helpful - thanks Ian.