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Andrew re Hornet crimping


nicholiath

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I am new to reloading. I have loaded some 35gn V Max with lilgun and have crimped with Lee factory crimp die.

I initially set die as per Lee instructions, screw in til stop on ram then plus 1/2 turn, this did not appear to place case high enough in crimp.

I then did in til stop on ram, plus 1/2 turn, plus 1/6 turn (using 6 sides of lock ring as a guide) This again as above.

I then did in til stop on ram, plus 1/2 turn, plus 2/6 turn. This showed crimp marks on case.

I cannot upload picture to this forum, could i possibly email you a pic of crimped rounds to see if you think they are OK ?

I tried to send PM but iwould not let me! :D

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I shoot this load in my Hornet. If I remember correctly I had to wind the die in a little more than the basic 1/2 turn. I'm pretty sure it says you can in the instructions, but I can't find mine! My crimps look pretty firm. They look like they squash the bullet slightly but it shoots perfectly.

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Andrew is currently recovering from some medical procedures, so he'll probably see this post fairly soon (though he may be bit loopy from the pain meds B) ). I'd say the deltas you're seeing wrt the instructions is due to the variances in various manufacturer's shell holders, so the crimp dies have to allow for thicker SH's (RCBS's tend to run a bit thicker than Lee's).

 

I have to give Andrew a call tonight and check up on him, so I'll mention this post...

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Andrew is currently recovering from some medical procedures, so he'll probably see this post fairly soon (though he may be bit loopy from the pain meds :P ). I'd say the deltas you're seeing wrt the instructions is due to the variances in various manufacturer's shell holders, so the crimp dies have to allow for thicker SH's (RCBS's tend to run a bit thicker than Lee's).

 

I have to give Andrew a call tonight and check up on him, so I'll mention this post...

 

Many thanks, no rush, in his own time. Hope he feels well soon.

Nick

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Nick,

The Marine got a hold of me and I took a look at your post. Yes, I've never been able to set the crimping die per instructions for the reasons that PMI decribes. Once set (with the o-ring fully compressed) the Lee die will pretty much stay put if you loosen it by the hex nut. This allowed me to mark the die and the top of the press with a permanent marker. Seems like you have it licked, anyhow. Post some groups! ~Andrew

 

And yes, the drugs have me a bit loopy! :huh:

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post-9726-1257512671_thumb.jpg Here is a picture of some rounds i crimped. 35gn V max with lilgun C.O.A.L 1.750

 

I think you can back off the crimp a little bit. I blew up your photo and lightened it up and it sure looks to be heavily crimped. The crimp only needs to go in a little. Uniformity is the key, not the compression of the crimp.

 

The photo shows that your seater isn't seating the bullets straight. Hornet loads are notorious for having the bullets off center because the necks are so thin or through misalignment of the dies. I would suggest that you buy a Lee "Universal Neck Expander Die". With it you can put a very slight flare on the case mouth. I put just enough to set the bullet base into. You will tell the difference in seating immediately. The bullets will seat smoothly with out the worrisome "thunk!" you get when pushing the bullet into a case that has simply been chamfered. Additionally, you'll be able to better gauge your crimping. You crimp just beyond what is necessary to remove the flare and that's it. This, at least, is the way I do it. ~Andrew

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Been out this afternoon, trying different loads and O.A.L plus crimped rounds, all at 100 yds. Crimped rounds appeared less tight than uncrimped equivalent, ( using 35 gn V Max with 13.3 lilgun O.A.L 1.750) Uncrimped with O.A.L.s of 1.725 and 1.750 were giving 3 shot groups of 1" i could possibly improve on this by shooting from a more benched position as opposed to off the bonnet of my Landrover with just a front bag. I also think i will try a lesser load of 13gn of lilgun as this seems to be a load a lot of people use.

 

Is there any advantage to load testing at shorter ranges of say 50 or 75yds to eliminate more of the shooter error?

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Were I you I would not pronounce judgment just yet on crimping. You need to experiment a little with crimping pressure combined with seating depth. I seat all my loads to 1.720" to fit the magazine of my CZ. There is where my accuracy lies, at least. I'd leave the powder charge where it is as well; it won't make any difference in my experience. I'd put in 14 grains if my brass would hold it! The pressures are minimal even for the Hornet.

 

Sure! Shoot at closer ranges. The accuracy is linear with this bullet and load. I never did get what rifle you're using. Have you given any thought to flaring the case mouths/necks? ~Andrew

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My rifle is a CZ 527.

I will certainly try flaring the case mouth, will have to get the die first though. I will also apply less crimp, i guess this is achieved by applying less physical pressure through the press handle at the end of the down stroke.

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Flaring will do you well. I use it in many calibers as a way to get away from over-chamfering the case mouth. Now, as I trim (every reloading) I am just aiming to remove any burr from the cutter.

 

An odd question about the pressure on the end of the up-stroke of the ram. the amount of effort to raise the ram to its final position is dictated by the die, not the mount of pressure on the handle. You can lean on it with all your might and it won't add any more crimp. When I am crimping Hornet it just feels like a gentle "bump" at the very top stroke of the ram. It really takes little physical effort at all. I am using an ancient RCBS A-2 press and I think the round would crimp under the weight of the handle alone if I were to let it drop.

 

The reason I found the comment odd was that my cousin John was here from Scotland shooting prairiedogs and he was under the impression that he really needed to lean his weight into the handle to get the crimp done. I took the die apart and showed him the collet arrangement of the die and he finally got it that die does all the work. In any event, it realy doesn't take a lot of effort to crimp.

 

Keep me abreast of your progress. I would be very disappointed with 1 MOA from my CZ Hornet. Feel free to email me if you wish. What primer are you using??~Andrew

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I am using CCI benchrest small rifle primers.

With regard to crimp pressure i am using the LEE crimp die so i looked on the LEE precision reloading website, there are several help videos. With regard to the crimp die it shows you to apply about 25lbs of pressure at the bottom of the stroke, at this point the press handle is shown to be applied with enough pressure to actually flex the side of the bench the press is fixed to! you can also hear the bench creak! you should watch this!

If pressure on handle is not a factor have i applied too much crimp to my rounds by inserting the case too far up into the die??? ie wound the die too far down into the press?

I went to my local gun shop today to get the lee universal case expanding die. He did not have one so he is going to see if he can get one for me.

I had thought to chamfer the inside of the case mouth a little more with the cutter. Is this not a good idea?

I really appreciate your advice, Many thanks, Nick.

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I am using CCI benchrest small rifle primers.

With regard to crimp pressure i am using the LEE crimp die so i looked on the LEE precision reloading website, there are several help videos. With regard to the crimp die it shows you to apply about 25lbs of pressure at the bottom of the stroke, at this point the press handle is shown to be applied with enough pressure to actually flex the side of the bench the press is fixed to! you can also hear the bench creak! you should watch this!

If pressure on handle is not a factor have i applied too much crimp to my rounds by inserting the case too far up into the die??? ie wound the die too far down into the press?

I went to my local gun shop today to get the lee universal case expanding die. He did not have one so he is going to see if he can get one for me.

I had thought to chamfer the inside of the case mouth a little more with the cutter. Is this not a good idea?

I really appreciate your advice, Many thanks, Nick.

 

Nick,

Yeah, I've seen the videos but don't apply that much pressure; at least on a Hornet. Those instructions are "generic" in nature and don't take into account the thin-walled nature of the Hornet brass. If you look at the top of the Factory Crimp Die you can see the collet fingers close as you raise the ram. I guess what I was getting at is that once you've got them closed, their closed, and no amount of extra force on the press handle is necessary! With that in mind, yes, the die is screwed in too far if you get a (too) heavy crimp.

 

As to the inside neck chamfering. Under the circumstances it was OK for you to do it. Since adopting the use of the Universal Neck Expanding Die I now just use the deburring tool for that purpose alone: deburring the case after trimming. I didn't mention, btw, that if you're going to crimp, having the cases trimmed to the exact same length is imperative. This means that I toss them onto a Lee Trimmer rig and give them a twist at every loading. IF they are long, they trim. If not, they don't. In either case, the cases end up uniform. I also brush the inside of the case necks.

 

I might suggest using standard primers, or better yet, small pistol primers. Marine PMI hooked into the use of small pistol primers back in our ground squirrel shooting days down on the Mexican border. He told me it cut is groups by 30% and watching him repeatedly hit the upper half of salt-shaker sized rodents at 200 yards made a believer out of me. Neither of us have found BR or Magnum primers to work well with Hornets.

 

You certainly have the best Hornet you can shoot, and you're shooting one of the finest bullets made for it. Seat the bullets to feed freely in the magazine and you'll have good luck.~AMMOe

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At the moment i am using brass that has been full length sized and primed , but i am going to try some neck sized brass, i will be cutting cases to length. my gunshop are going to get a case expanding die for me. This is all very confusing as some say small pistol primers are great others say cci BR are great. Until i get a flarer i will try chamfering the case mouth. What brand of small pistol primers do you recommend?

I am using a decent seating die as i have the RCBS competition seating die. What die are you using to seat yousr?

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At the moment i am using brass that has been full length sized and primed , but i am going to try some neck sized brass, i will be cutting cases to length. my gunshop are going to get a case expanding die for me. This is all very confusing as some say small pistol primers are great others say cci BR are great. Until i get a flarer i will try chamfering the case mouth. What brand of small pistol primers do you recommend?

I am using a decent seating die as i have the RCBS competition seating die. What die are you using to seat yousr?

 

I use a Lee set. The Collet Neck Sizer particularly. It works very well for me. I use the seater that comes with the die. It has a floating seater unit and works well. I have never used a Competition Seater in Hornet. (Didn't know they shot competition with Hornets! :angry: ) If you look at the photos you sent, you'll see that they bullet is misaligned during seating and in some photos it sticks out of the case on one side more than the other. Too small of an expander ball can cause that bulge, in general, but the seater is definitely seating the bullet askew. The Neck Expander will help with that. Two thumbs up on the Neck sizer. I told you what I use...

 

As to the BR primers VS pistol primers. Well, BR primers are good in some rifles with certain powders. I haven't found Lil Gun and the Hornet to be one of them. The primers I like are CCI or Federal Small Pistol primers. (non magnum) The work well. Normally, in a high pressure rifle cartridge you might have the concern about piercing primers. The Hornet with Lil Gun doesn't develop high pressures. Far less then my .357 Magnum revolver!

 

I know there are some that think "Gawd! He really gets picky with just a Hornet!" and that's true. I put more effort into Hornet than I do my .223 or .222 but with the relatively poor consistency of US Hornet brass, it pays to level out as many variables as possible. I kill prairie dogs regularly out to 250M and often beyond when I read the wind gods mind well enough, so it works for me. ~Andrew

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I will try the lee bullet seater, and definitely try just neck sizing the brass it may size the neck better than the full length sized brass i am using, i am being as picky as you, i get 1/2" groups @ 50 yds with my remington 597 rimmy so i won't be happy with less at 100yds with the hornet! Many thanks, Nick

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nicholiath,

 

I'll echo Andrew's comments wrt the pistol primers. I'm not sure why, but it seems to work well. Andrew and I have had long conversations on this particular oddity, with my theory being that the case neck being so thin, that even with a crimp, too strong a primer actually pops the bullet loose of the case long before (relatively speaking) the powder begins to ignite, perhaps even igniting it as it is traveling between case neck and chamber mouth, thereby causing the bullet to inconsistently yaw slightly before being forced into the chamber and subsequent pressures pushing it down the bore. I don't have a single scientific fact to back this up, and haven't really given it too much thought, as pistol primers seems to have cured the problem and so I have had no burning desire to figure out why. It just works.

 

Bear in mind, I am using only about 12gr or so of Lil'gun (so maybe I should just up the charge to eliminate the slight amount of empty space in the casing?).

 

Either way, I did see a marked improvement in group size when I switched to Fed SP primers.

 

YMMV...

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I will definitely try the pistol primers, i will get some when i go to get the case expanding die on Monday, although the shop owner GUESSED that the die would cost about £30!!! if ithis is his best price i won't be buying it from him as i have seen it for £11.99 on midway UK.

Sorry if there is a delay in response sometimes but i work permanent nights.

Thanks for all your input, i will keep you posted. This afternoon i have been modifying a spare magazine to accept longer rounds.

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I have read of the magazine conversions but never felt the need to do one. The 1.725 +/- OAL works for 33 grain VM, 34 grain VM, the 32 grain Midway bullets I like so much, and the 46 grain Winchester HP's that are so inexpensive. That about covers my needs! Let me know how you like it.

 

It sounds like you are on the path to Righteousness with your Hornet reloading. I know you will have success. Get hunkered down on a solid rest and shoot well. The groups will be there. If when you use the flaring tool, the bullet base still bulges through the neck, see about finding a machinist to make you a larger expander ball. Of course, the Lee collet die would solve that.

 

Additionally, if you get the chance, try the Midway "Dog Town" 32 grain HP bullets. Loaded to just fit into the stock magazine (1.720") they will shoot respectable groups at a cost far less then the VM's. JMHO, at least.

 

When you get your Hornet running right, show up here in the States and the Marine PMI and I will introduce you to sniping prairiedogs on brushy sage covered Montana prairies. A a sport made for sub MOA Hornets. The shots aren't overly far (under 200M mostly) but the targets are small!~Andrew

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That would be so cool, shooting prairie dogs with you lads! :angry:

I have just done some loads with neck sized cases, they were a lot smoother to seat the bullet, a lot less resistance on the press handle, no THUNK ! (i internally chamfered slightly) they also look to be sat straight! I have also crimped some to varying degrees to find which is the best amount of turn in of the crimp die. In fact you would not know i have crimped them.

These rounds look nothing like the ones i pictured earlier, no bulges at all. The full length size die appears to make the case necks a lot tighter.

 

I converted a mag for 40 gn Sierra Blitzkings ( C.O.A.L 1.895") as i shot some that the lad who originally owned the rifle had loaded, they were exceptionally accurate, clover leafing at 100 yds. These are fantastic fox rounds.

I am loading the lighter bullets for long range rabbits and corvids.

 

Thanks again, TTFN, Nick.

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Haven't had chance to test the new loads yet . We are out shooting pheasant/partridge on the land tomorrow so i haven't been banging about on the shoot with the hornet. I will try and get out on Sunday.

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