Where are all the .204s?

[TonyH]

Surprised by how few of these are around. It's a very useful calibre, been a great success in the States, so why don't many UK varminters seem to be going for it...? If you're using 204R I for one would be keen to know how you're getting on, in terms of the ballistics, terminal effects, handloading, obtaining brass, dies and other handloading bits..

Tony H

[Alycidon]

20cals are catching on quite swiftly here as people come to realise their benifts over .22s. But the average Uk shooter is quite conservative and tends to stick with the same caliber his mate has etc. My keeper is adamant he wants a .222 not a .204, why, because that what the other keepers use and thats what he has had a shot or twenty with.

 

204s and Tac20/Prac20 are owned by maybe ten or a dozen members here, I have only come accross one guy who did not get on with 204 and moved back to a Swift.

 

There is also an odd 20PPC, 20BR and 20.250 here, I am not aware of any 20 Vartargs but that for me is the second best 20 round, ideally suited for a light walking rifle.

 

A

[skany]

I had a 204 for a few months then moved it on as i didnt find it as good as the 243ai

 

mainly coz u couldnt see ur strikes at long range mind due to the light bullet!500yds +

 

great little point & squirt rifle but not for me!

 

Andy

[TonyH]

Gentlemen, thanks. I hadn't realised there was quite so much stuff on the forum about 204, true (took a hasty glance at the opening page, saw nothing) so I searched and in fact there's a healthy amount of material, the most useful i've found anywhere. I wouldn't rule out the Tac20, interesting, just a bit more likely to go for 204R. I still think there are remarkably few rifles on sale at dealers, in this calibre! Yes, Brit riflemen are very conservative - I already knew that. i have a slot for another 22-250 and I like that cal very much, but 204 seems more useful in key aspects.

I'll keep musing, and checking opinions here.

Thanks again - Tony h

[menial 1]

We don't have the same varmint type shooting available in the UK as they do in the States, ie. off a bench with the the cool box next to you.

Was going to become my first choice for foxing but speaking to a local keeper who has run one for three years and shoots 200+ fox a year, he admits to a certain amount of disappointment with the caliber even though he raved about it's abilities when he first had it. He's now taking the .243 with him most days.

His biggest gripe was bullet blowups on the sligthest piece of grass or other material or light strikes where the bullet has disintigrated on the shoulder or other boney parts of the fox.

I realise this can happen with a lot of fast moving cartridges but like he says, his job depends on vermin control and sometimes it has to be a Texas heart shot to get the job done and this is where 22-250, .243 etc have the edge.

The chap in question is a serious rifle enthusiast and we swap a lot of our findings as we're both out an awful lot doing a similar type of shooting.

The other drawback is the fact you can't slot small deer (legally) with it, which I need as we shoot munties on sight all the year round (Heavens save us from the tossers that want a close season on munties).

I'm still considering a 20 as a fun gun, but feel it will never supercede my .243 (now Ackley) as my do it all gun.

Just my thoughts.

Pete.

[TonyH]

We don't have the same varmint type shooting available in the UK as they do in the States, ie. off a bench with the the cool box next to you.

Pete, not sure if you were addressing me, but I'm in S.Devon not the States! Though I will be in Canada later this week hunting groundhogs...

..His biggest gripe was bullet blowups on the sligthest piece of grass or other material or light strikes where the bullet has disintigrated on the shoulder or other boney parts of the fox.

I realise this can happen with a lot of fast moving cartridges but like he says, his job depends on vermin control and sometimes it has to be a Texas heart shot to get the job done and this is where 22-250, .243 etc have the edge.

I confess to being puzzled by this: the sort of top-level varmint bullets available in 20 cal (V-Max, SBK) are built exactly the same as those in 22 cal which many people have used for a long time without the issues your friend reports being at all common or significant. I've used polymer-tipped bullets for at least 15 years in 222, 22-250 and 223, with bullet weights between 40gr and 55gr, without ever experiencing these premature blow-ups - in fact I find such bullets incredibly efficient and destructive on everything from pigeons to foxes, with penetration followed by explosive fragmentation inside. I find it hard to understand how a tiny shift downward to 20 cal, and a slight increase in MV (my 223 load drives the 40gr V-Max at nearly 3800fps) might start to promote surface blow-ups on foxes. Interesting.

 

The chap in question is a serious rifle enthusiast and we swap a lot of our findings as we're both out an awful lot doing a similar type of shooting.... Just my thoughts.

Pete.

I'm guessing he was using 32gr bullets. But I still don't really understand how the 204 might produce those results more than the 22 centrefires.

Regards, Tony H

[ejg223]

Generally people tend to prefer 50 gr as a minimum in 22 cal for foxes.

The 40gr has a bit of a reputation for not doing the job as well.

Over time it is proven that one tends to say the heavier the beast the heavier the projectile.

Many only observe that rule when it comes to shooting dangerous game. wonder why?

I'd also prefer to have enough gun to shoot foxes from the worst position and drop em on the spot.

 

edi

[6mmBR]

I have a .20 Tactical and love the little rifle, its a great rabbit and crow buster.

I have used it on foxes but to be honest I reach for a 6mm/.243 when out for Charlie a lot more predictable in the wind and I personally feel it puts Charlie to rest a lot better.

Cheers

Dave

[TonyH]

Generally people tend to prefer 50 gr as a minimum in 22 cal for foxes.

The 40gr has a bit of a reputation for not doing the job as well...

Probably far more people use 50/55gr for foxes than 40gr, but then most people use those bullet weights as standard anyway - I wouldn't say it's a deliberate choice to employ the heavier bullets when pursuing Charlie. And it's only within recent years that there's been much of a selection of lighter bullets available: Brit shooters being a conservative bunch, they stick with the bullet weights they're accustomed to. My standard 223 load for years has used the 40gr V-Max, flat shooting and just as deadly IME. I have no idea where or among whom this "reputation for not doing the job as well" is current, but it's the first time I've heard it! I gather 40gr bullets in various 22-centrefire cals are often favoured by SWAT teams etc in the US, and I'd have thought if it was considered adequate by them for dropping dangerous felons, it should handle a fox...

 

Over time it is proven that one tends to say the heavier the beast the heavier the projectile.

Many only observe that rule when it comes to shooting dangerous game. wonder why?

I'd also prefer to have enough gun to shoot foxes from the worst position and drop em on the spot. edi

Very true. But foxes aren't heavy: they're in some ways quite delicately built, skinnier on average than dogs, and a stout cat can see off a fox: I recall a fascinating TV documentary showing this, years ago. Compared to a fox's body mass, a top 40gr frangible bullet at high velocity is a hell of a projectile to receive, and goes off inside Charlie like a miniature grenade. I've never had any problem with 40gr. I agree entirely about coping with "worst position" but this is a matter of knowing one's limitations, and I built my rifle & load specifically for a max of 250-300 yards.

Regards, Tony H

[TonyH]

I have a .20 Tactical and love the little rifle, its a great rabbit and crow buster.

I have used it on foxes but to be honest I reach for a 6mm/.243 when out for Charlie a lot more predictable in the wind and I personally feel it puts Charlie to rest a lot better.

Cheers

Dave

Interesting, thanks - I'm starting to extend my research to this calibre having looked at the ballistics and the practicalities. I agree about the desirability of 6mm calibres in the wind (a friend uses 243AI) and for real long range stuff, but it's very much over-gunning for foxes! I mean, something that will knock over a good sized deer will blow Charlie in two, wasting a lot of energy on shoot-through... And if one uses those very light sub-60gr bullets, one might as well be using a 22 c/f anyway. I've never seen a fox get away after any sort of solid torso hit from 40-55gr V-Max or BT bullets in a high-veocity 22 c/f calibre, and usually they drop like a stone. Of course, YMMV, as usual...

Regards, Tony H

ps my key interest varmint-wise is not foxes, though I've shot many, but smaller pests from crows & pigeons to bunnies & (all too rarely) groundhogs - hence my interest in the 20 calibres

[Finman]

Interesting, thanks - I'm starting to extend my research to this calibre having looked at the ballistics and the practicalities. I agree about the desirability of 6mm calibres in the wind (a friend uses 243AI) and for real long range stuff, but it's very much over-gunning for foxes! I mean, something that will knock over a good sized deer will blow Charlie in two, wasting a lot of energy on shoot-through... And if one uses those very light sub-60gr bullets, one might as well be using a 22 c/f anyway. I've never seen a fox get away after any sort of solid torso hit from 40-55gr V-Max or BT bullets in a high-veocity 22 c/f calibre, and usually they drop like a stone. Of course, YMMV, as usual...

Regards, Tony H

ps my key interest varmint-wise is not foxes, though I've shot many, but smaller pests from crows & pigeons to bunnies & (all too rarely) groundhogs - hence my interest in the 20 calibres

 

hi,

 

I love my .204Ruger. It is my go-to for varminting (crows, rabbits, foxes etc). Last month I shot more than 120 shots through mine (Sako 75-I Varmint on a McMillan A5), from 80 to 310 yards. Dead on the spot. Longest fox 278 yrds, through the shoulder, out the other side (along with half its lung...), fox dead 20 yards from strike. all other foxes dead on the spot with no bullet exit (from 60 to 190 yds).

 

It is a great calibre, accurate, low noise, low cost (still shooting the factory ammo cases that I have reloaded 8 times!) and love the ability to see the strike before you hear the 'thump'! I shoot a 39gnSBK load, zips out of my 22 inch barrel at 3890fps and its flat as a pancake. I have a 6mmBR for the windier days for foxing, but I find them on a par with each other on fox.

 

Friend of mine has a 20Tac with a 1:8 twist barrel on a Sako 491 action. Shoots 50gn Bergers like a demon! 20s rock, everyone should have one!

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[menial 1]

In your original post you were keen to know peoples findings concerning the .204. The answer I gave was one man's considered and experienced opinion after three years of loading and shooting it in the course of his job. He continued using 32gr pills as these shot best in his rifle.

I couldn't knock a calibre I've never owned personally, although I have shot his rifle on a number of occassions and enjoyed the experience.

I rang him before making this post and he said the round was best used on the quarry it was intended for with fast, flat shooting, lightweight frangible ammunition but after considerable efforts to make it work for him, he felt the round to marginal in all the situations he encountered fox in the day to day execution of his job. The man in question has shot fox all his working life and was the first I knew to buy and use a .204 so hardly conservative in being the first around our way to go 20cal and taking the chance on an expensive mistake.

He's a man of few words, but a lifetime's experience with a number of different calibres and not prone to bullshit, so I had no reason to doubt his findings.

Pete.

[TonyH]

In your original post you were keen to know peoples findings concerning the .204. The answer I gave was one man's considered and experienced opinion..[snip]...He's a man of few words, but a lifetime's experience with a number of different calibres and not prone to bullshit, so I had no reason to doubt his findings.

Pete.

This is all perfectly true, but all I did was offer a few comments! I'm not knocking your friend or his views, merely offering comment & argument in the normal way. Different people's experiences are always interesting and potentially valuable, even (or especially) when they appear to offer contradictory or at least very different results and conclusions.

Thanks again for passing it on.

Regards, Tony H

[TonyH]

hi,

 

I love my .204Ruger....[snip]...Friend of mine has a 20Tac with a 1:8 twist barrel on a Sako 491 action. Shoots 50gn Bergers like a demon! 20s rock, everyone should have one!

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

Many thanks for this, most interesting. I am struck by the terminal effect of that 39gr SBK at nearly 300 yards (great shot BTW): I wonder if it had lost sufficient velocity that it failed to give complete, explosive fragmentation inside the fox, retaining much/most of its integrity and zipping through? That it actually shot through so dramatically does surprise me: I've shot foxes at around 300 yards using 50-55gr polymer-tipped bullets with no shoot-through, and my furthest groundhog was 340 yards (modest I know) with no exit wound at all from a 55gr V-Max out of 22-250; i find with 40gr V-Max there is even less tendency to get any degree of exit wound on critters as solid as fox or groundhog... Anyway, I've seen anough quirky, unpredictable results from various bullets to know they don't always behave as advertised.

Interesting that your friend loads 50gr Bergers in his Tac20, heavier than the usual fare - presumably he considers the sacrifice of trajectory & velocity is worth it for excellent accuracy...?

Thanks again, Tony H

[Finman]

Many thanks for this, most interesting. I am struck by the terminal effect of that 39gr SBK at nearly 300 yards (great shot BTW): I wonder if it had lost sufficient velocity that it failed to give complete, explosive fragmentation inside the fox, retaining much/most of its integrity and zipping through? That it actually shot through so dramatically does surprise me: I've shot foxes at around 300 yards using 50-55gr polymer-tipped bullets with no shoot-through, and my furthest groundhog was 340 yards (modest I know) with no exit wound at all from a 55gr V-Max out of 22-250; i find with 40gr V-Max there is even less tendency to get any degree of exit wound on critters as solid as fox or groundhog... Anyway, I've seen anough quirky, unpredictable results from various bullets to know they don't always behave as advertised.

Interesting that your friend loads 50gr Bergers in his Tac20, heavier than the usual fare - presumably he considers the sacrifice of trajectory & velocity is worth it for excellent accuracy...?

Thanks again, Tony H

 

Hi Tony,

 

indeed, with reference to the 20tac, he designed the rifle specifically around that bullet as it has superior ballistic coefficient from many .22 or even .243 varmint bullets and is spectacularly accurate through that rifle.

 

with regard to the SBK through my .204Ruger, see below the track of the shot, which allowed me to conclude that the fox was critically injured and led to me looking for it at the adjacedt maze field (I took the picture after I found him, so no funny comments that he is just there )

 

 

and

 

 

best part of it was that I had to aim some 1.5-2 inches high, which makes this calibre special. A similar size fox shot at 60yds with my rifle and the same load, showed no exit. Additionnaly, when I shot the long range fox, I shot a rabbit at 130 yds head on. I thought the poor thing will disintegrate, however, the bullet took away its head and left the rest of it intact. Gotta love them boys at Sierra

 

best wishes

 

Finman

[TonyH]

....A similar size fox shot at 60yds with my rifle and the same load, showed no exit. Additionnaly, when I shot the long range fox, I shot a rabbit at 130 yds head on. I thought the poor thing will disintegrate, however, the bullet took away its head and left the rest of it intact. Gotta love them boys at Sierra

 

best wishes

 

Finman

Thanks for the additional info, again interesting. What you say about that 60-yard fox might be seen as supporting my very tentative theory, but I'd hesitate to be any more definite! Bullets do behave unpredictably sometimes... Nice pics! All too often I neglect to carry a camera.

Regards, Tony H

[foxwhistler]

I`ve had my 204 for about 2 1/2 years and cant really fault it.

It did take a bit of time to sort out some really accurate load`s for it, but was well worth it in the end.

I`ve now got a really good load with the 32gr v-max and a very promising load using 35gr berger`s.

However like a lot of people, my best load is the 39gr sierra`s.

As far as suitability for fox goes, i think you need to look at a couple of forums from the states and see how many people over there use one for coyote.

I believe that a coyote is much more solid than a fox, so if it is classed as suitable for coyote then fox should not be a problem.

Jamie.

[20Tac]

I use a Tac .20 with 40gr noslers - haven't even tried any 32gr as I use it mostly for foxes.

I used to shoot a lot with .243 and 70gr noslers, and would agree this gives you a greater margin of error - but as long as you're shooting straight the .20 works just fine.

[Alycidon]

I have not shot many with my 20 yet but I have yet to have one do anything other than drop on the spot with 50gr Bergers, well other than the one I missed !!. Admitted the wound channell is bigger in 6mm but dead is dead.

 

A

[bigun]

push the 32gn bullet at the right speed and it will blow rabbit, crows ect to bits on fox you just about find the entrance hole, and some times you will find a small exit hole, but if there is not a exit hole I will put money on it you will not find the bullet as it explodes and what it does to a foxes insides is to mess it up quite bad, so death is quick..if you can not shoot and you miss the chest or head that’s not down the rifle or bullet but down to the shooter .iv seen foxes run off with most of its side blown out using .223 btips its dead but don’t know it, but what I have seen is the .204 do its job on foxes and iv never seen a runner yet, that could be down to me and the rifle? 32gn blitz kings are built to blow up on impact ,to give you that quick kill on small animals so foxes are the biggest thing you ever want to shoot with the .204.. Would I swap mine for a 223 again...No thanks...? the .204 is such a cracking little gun that does its job very well indeed ..

 

 

 

 

 

nice thing about the .204 Ruger is the lack of felt recoil. It recoils much less than a .22-250, but achieves faster velocity by using a very efficient case and a lighter bullet. Firing the .204 you get the sense that the bullet is instantly on target. It is hard to explain the feeling, but there is just instant impact, and the mild recoil allows the hit to be seen through the scope, without being jarred off target

The .204 Ruger is a varmint shooter's dream cartridge. It shoots flatter and resists wind drift better than the .22-250 Rem., better even than the mighty .220 Swift. It does so with a third less powder, meaning longer barrel life, less cost, lower recoil and milder report.

[Scotch_egg]

push the 32gn bullet at the right speed and it will blow rabbit, crows act to bits on fox you just about find the entrance hole, and some times you will find a small exit hole, but if there is not a exit hole I will put money on it you will not find the bullet as it explodes and what it does to a foxes insides is to mess it up quite bad, so death is quick..if you can not shoot and you miss the chest or head that’s not down the rifle or bullet but down to the shooter .iv seen foxes run off with most of its side blown out using .223 btips its dead but don’t know it, but what I have seen is the .204 do its job on foxes and iv never seen a runner yet, that could be down to me and the rifle? 32gn blitz kings are built to blow up on impact ,to give you that quick kill on small animals so foxes are the biggest thing you ever want to shoot with the .204.. Would I swap mine for a 223 again...No thanks...? the .204 is such a cracking little gun that does its job very well indeed ..

 

 

 

 

 

nice thing about the .204 Ruger is the lack of felt recoil. It recoils much less than a .22-250, but achieves faster velocity by using a very efficient case and a lighter bullet. Firing the .204 you get the sense that the bullet is instantly on target. It is hard to explain the feeling, but there is just instant impact, and the mild recoil allows the hit to be seen through the scope, without being jarred off target

The .204 Ruger is a varmint shooter's dream cartridge. It shoots flatter and resists wind drift better than the .22-250 Rem., better even than the mighty .220 Swift. It does so with a third less powder, meaning longer barrel life, less cost, lower recoil and milder report.

 

This thread had me thinking of you bud

[bigun]

This thread had me thinking of you bud

 

 

thinking of me i have fired a lot of other peoples rifles far less than some but enough to no when i have a good rifle or should i say tool for the job ,most of my shooting is fox, only in the last 10 months has it been crows ,pigeon ,rabbit ect all with the .204 it does the job very very well indeed im not saying its the all that ends all ,but i will say its a very easy rifle to shoot makes a good rifle man a better one if you know were im coming from ,iv killed more stuff with mine way way out to 490mtrs thats nothing i know but for such a little bullet it is ,we could all go rushing out to by the biggest rifle cal we could get are hands on ,but you know what,i bet it will sit it the safe for most of its life ,were as mines out most days and i mean day to day and reloading is quite cheep as well ,i think the 204 is a little gun with a lot of kick but not on the shoulder only on what your going to kill do you really see the power of such a small bullet ,fox rabbit ect 250yrds away you pull the trigger and at the same time you see the impact then the fox drops then you hear the hit it ,that bullet really is moving .if it was slower say 3200fps i think i would not give it a second look ,them who have never shot one should have a go with one ,not on paper but on fur

[TonyH]

thinking of me i have fired a lot of other peoples rifles far less than some but enough to no when i have a good rifle or should i say tool for the job ,most of my shooting is fox, only in the last 10 months has it been crows ,pigeon ,rabbit ect all with the .204 it does the job very very well indeed...[snip]

Thanks for that interesting input, very useful. Re suggestions that 204 isn't up to foxes, there's a feature in the latest Varmint Hunter which among other things suggests 204R is a very good calibre for (US) Eastern Coyotes......

To revert to my original query about where all the 204s are, I just got back from a foreign trip, checked the Guntrader UK website, and it lists fourteen rifles in that calibre - of which only TWO are heavy barrel varmint rigs! Weird, or what? 204R is very specifically a varmint calibre and UK dealers appear to be stocking mainly the standard-weight barrel versions! Baffled, and still wondering where the 204s are hiding.

Regards, TonyH

[Barrelsniffer]

Hi Tony.just been reading a few posts and came across a few from your self,ref you use 40grns V-max how good is the load you made up ? any chance of sharing with me what load it is,as i might look into the 40s when home.

 

Cheers

 

Mick

 

 

 

 

Probably far more people use 50/55gr for foxes than 40gr, but then most people use those bullet weights as standard anyway - I wouldn't say it's a deliberate choice to employ the heavier bullets when pursuing Charlie. And it's only within recent years that there's been much of a selection of lighter bullets available: Brit shooters being a conservative bunch, they stick with the bullet weights they're accustomed to. My standard 223 load for years has used the 40gr V-Max, flat shooting and just as deadly IME. I have no idea where or among whom this "reputation for not doing the job as well" is current, but it's the first time I've heard it! I gather 40gr bullets in various 22-centrefire cals are often favoured by SWAT teams etc in the US, and I'd have thought if it was considered adequate by them for dropping dangerous felons, it should handle a fox...

 

 

Very true. But foxes aren't heavy: they're in some ways quite delicately built, skinnier on average than dogs, and a stout cat can see off a fox: I recall a fascinating TV documentary showing this, years ago. Compared to a fox's body mass, a top 40gr frangible bullet at high velocity is a hell of a projectile to receive, and goes off inside Charlie like a miniature grenade. I've never had any problem with 40gr. I agree entirely about coping with "worst position" but this is a matter of knowing one's limitations, and I built my rifle & load specifically for a max of 250-300 yards.

Regards, Tony H

[TonyH]

Hi Tony.just been reading a few posts and came across a few from your self,ref you use 40grns V-max how good is the load you made up ? any chance of sharing with me what load it is,as i might look into the 40s when home.

 

Cheers

 

Mick

Well Mick, I've always found that a bit of prior research pays dividends and I can honestly say I never found much difficulty in developing a half-way decent load, at least for e.g. 22-centrefire calibres. With 223 i think i was particularly lucky though: I set out to build a short-medium range load for my lightweight Win Featherweight, using the 40gr V-Max (I've used V-Max in 55gr for years in 22-250) and hit on N130 straight away which seems pretty much perfect to me.

Usual disclaimer: do not copy this load (anyone) but work up to it slowly & carefully! What is safe in my rifle might not be in yours...

With my bullets seated around 11 thou off the lands, using WW brass and Rem 7.5 primer, I load 25.8gr of N130 which I find safe but nice and fast, around 3750fps on a cool day and 3800 when it's warm. I just got back from shooting groundhogs in Canada, temperatures a bit higher than here (maybe 23-28 C) and it shot just as well there, with 'hogs killed out to 335 yards.

Check the ballistics: this bullet has a BC of only 0.2 but at this velocity it shoots very flat, should be perfectly useable out to 400 yards and beyond.

Will this do? If you try it yourself I'd be interested to hear how you get on.

Regards, Tony