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Semi nightmare


Alycidon

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I run two half decent semi rimmys.

 

I have recently picked up a bit of rabbit shooting but when I went to look at it this week by and large its near his house and one of his lady tenants in an attached flats is a fluffy bunny anti. !! So it would have to be quiet and discreet, shame as I had picked a nice 300 yard shot over the top of his house !!, very steep valleys.

 

Anyway last autumn I reported issues with light edge strikes on one of my 10/22 derivatives. The general consensus here and when I talked to Roger and Dave at SYSS was that probably the firing pin either was worn or had crap underneath it, this was very possable as I had never stripped the bolt.

 

I ordered a new titanium pin, extractor and buffer and with Vermincinerators help fitted them, a tiny bit of crap under the old pin which was a shade shorter than the new one. That done I put the rifle away for the winter unfired !! Big Mistake that.

 

Got it out this morning to zero up, 1 in 3 was still missfiring on top of poor mag feeds and it was grouping like a musket. One group of about 3 inches dia at 2 o'clock and another at about 10, this is at 50 yards. Used a shooting bag which is usually pretty Ok.

 

So thats the problem, what the hells wrong with it, still getting these missfires and crap accuracy to boot, its usually MOA or better. Maybe a clean of the bore will help accuracy and stipping the mags with the SYSS kit will sort them. Even the big Butler Creeks did not want to play yet they worked perfectly last September.

 

So I get the back up rimmy out, this is a standard 10/22 action and plastic stock with a Shilen .920 stainless barrell. That also starts very randomly throwing bullets to the point that I switched the scope to a proven Pecar 2x7x35 German post. That then settled down and I finished by putting about a dozen into a group measuring .44 so that ones sorted now. It also prooves the support and the trigger man !. At one point this morning I would have happily junked them both!!. I recon I need a bit of pro help, maybe I should take it to the guy that built the 20 for me. he did sort a feed issue with it last year.

 

A

 

 

Another point, I was using Eley SSHPs, a very old batch of 36 grainers as thats what the 10/22 prefers. Yet 2 in 3 were going supersonic. They had been at room temp for maybe 12 hours.

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A couple of questions: Is your barrel in properly? The gun that screwed up originally, is it rebarreled? Did you check to see that the extractor cut was made deep enough? I have about 6 of the Rugers and know that "drop in" parts ain't always so.

 

If the trigger group (mainspring) isn't suspect, I'd pop the original barrel back in and give it a try. Switching the Shilen barrel into the "trouble" gun would prove that rifle's firing group and place the blame on the barrel.

 

I doubt if it is your ammo. Here it's nothing for me to leave .22 round in my jeep summer (110F) and winter (-30F) and still have 100% reliability.~Andrew

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A couple of questions: Is your barrel in properly? The gun that screwed up originally, is it rebarreled? Did you check to see that the extractor cut was made deep enough? I have about 6 of the Rugers and know that "drop in" parts ain't always so.

 

If the trigger group (mainspring) isn't suspect, I'd pop the original barrel back in and give it a try. Switching the Shilen barrel into the "trouble" gun would prove that rifle's firing group and place the blame on the barrel.

 

I doubt if it is your ammo. Here it's nothing for me to leave .22 round in my jeep summer (110F) and winter (-30F) and still have 100% reliability.~Andrew

 

 

I am also sure its not an ammo issue, all the rounds fired in the back up rifle.

 

The troublesome one is the Theoben/AMT, I have had that since new maybe 10 or 12 years ago, barrel is a stainless short AMT one and it only came off once when I took it back for a small modification to Theoben soon after I bought it. Since then it has fired several 1000 rounds without issue although it did develope a feed issue last spring which was resolved by my local smith. The action needs warming to get it out so it is tight and then some. The backup with the Shilen has also fired maybe 10,000/15,000 rounds since that barrel was fitted which was almost when new, the original barrel was shooting awfully IMHO but acceptably in the importers, so as I am not into wounding rabbits with an innaccurate tool so I sorted it. The RFD kept the Ruger barrell quite correctly

 

I am getting very light strikes right on the very edge of the case, this is the issue. The gun action was perfactly clean, the bolt face clean, under the firing pin is clean and the firing pin seems in the right position in its slot. Its as though the round is not fitting into the bolt high enough when it picks up and loads, either that or something is causing the front end of the bolt assembly to lift as the case is going forward into the chamber thereby moving the case head down the bolt and away from the firing pin.

I have done nothing to the trigger at all, it seems Ok though, why do you think it might be the cause?.

 

I think a good strip and soak is called for again, the bore seems to need attention anyway and I also need to further check the bolt face where the case sits but last strip I cleaned it with a tiny pin and wire brush so I know I will find no crap.

 

A

A

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IIRC, this may be due to the firing pin not being properly staked in. It can, and does, ride up the channel if the staking point (about half up the top of the bolt) is not deep enough to keep the firing pin travelling true. May want to check that out.

 

I've never used a titainium firing pin, but I'd imagine they have less K.E. due to the lighter weight, so this may actually exacerbate the mis-fire problem, if it's loosing momentum or velocity due to it not being properly staked in.

 

JMTCW...

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The AMT's are unfamiliar to me, but it does sound as though you have an issue either with the mainspring, extractor, or the chamber. Since you fired a lot of rounds through it before this, I'm assuming the chamber's throat (tight) isn't impeding the full seat of the cartridge for proper headspacing/ignition.

 

You might want to look at the extractor fit. A quick way to determine if the extractor is improperly fit or bound is to remove it, place a round in the chamber, and fire. If it goes bang every time you can look there.

 

The trigger question relates to the mainspring. If it is light (to facilitate a better pull) you might have an issue. If you say you haven't done anything to it, and we as consumers have faith that they used a good quality spring in manufacture, then it probably isn't your ignition gremlin.

 

Lastly, take one last good look at the barrel again. Make sure the screws are tight and that it's in squarely to the receiver and that the extractor (s) are passing freely into their slots. A little cant can really torque the bolt as the extractors wedge themselves into the extractor cuts on the barrel.

 

You mention having taken it to a smith for a feeding issue. What was that about? Usually a feed issue is solved by rinsing the magazine out in the kitchen sink when the missus isn't looking. Did the magazine latch get replaced? If so, and the fit isn't correct, the magazine could be putting upward thrust on the bolt.

 

Don't worry Amigo, between all of us here we'll get it figured out.~Andrew

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IIRC, this may be due to the firing pin not being properly staked in. It can, and does, ride up the channel if the staking point (about half up the top of the bolt) is not deep enough to keep the firing pin travelling true. May want to check that out.

 

I've never used a titainium firing pin, but I'd imagine they have less K.E. due to the lighter weight, so this may actually exacerbate the mis-fire problem, if it's loosing momentum or velocity due to it not being properly staked in.

 

JMTCW...

 

Hey. You're up early.....Good point on the pin.~Andrew

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The AMT is basically a 10/22 copy in stainless steel with a Fajen laminated stock, very pretty and with a short barrel pretty handy in a truck at night. The rifle has fired 1000s of rounds without any issues at all then it developed a reluctance to feed. Bullets tended to wedge against the top of the chamber hole as opposed to slipping into the chamber. After maybe another 300 rounds this strike issue emerged. Thing is the pin impact is only on the very edge of the case instead of a wedge that comes maybe 3 mm down the case rim. As far as I am aware the latch is the same one, AMT have now gone bust so getting a replacement could be tricky but my normal repairer usually makes everything he needs anyway.

 

The roll pin holding the firing pin in is tight and extends all the way through the bolt.

 

I have stripped and cleaned all the mags today, I intend to strip the rifle tomorrow and give it a good soak, I think the bore may need a bit of TLC anyway.

 

A

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One of the usual causes of misfeed etc and block not going fully into place on the breech face , is the guide pin and mainspring for the block. Due to these being a blowback action a lot of powder residue is blown back into the action and contaminates the spring and pin preventing proper cycling and light pin blows If the block is not fully home on the breech face it prevents the firing pin being cleanly and fully struck.

I always strip the 10 round mags from new and clean them with degreaser, I ten treat the pin and spring with a teflon based dry lubricant and reassemble adding a bit more spring tension to ensure last few rounds reliable feeding. I do the same with the trigger group and finally the guide pin and spring, although I have now changed on this part and the firing pin and block to using a dry graphite (Moly) lube to minimise wear.

This has resulted in literally tens of thousands of rounds through both my 10/22s the std and the "T" model without misfires or misfeeds over a number of years.

The magazines I blow out regularly with compressed air and strip annually as above, due to wax build up off the Eley subs ( now using Lapua ). The action also gets a blow out regularly and an annual strip and re dry lubiing. Apart from the Volquartson trigger spring etc mod and the bolt lock back mod they have remained std otherwise and although the std model has gone to a new owner who loves it the T model continues do do good service on the rabbits and squirrels etc.

I might treat it to a thumbhole stock in the future, but thats all. :D

Redfox

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As mine are used for pest contol they are almost always teamed with big Butler Creek 25 round mags at night. Maybe for a casual walk round I will pop a Ruger mag in but normally I take a bigger gun if I walk.

 

It has been suggested elsewhere that maybe a fireing pin holdown is required to stop the fireing pin lifting. Never heard of that device to be honest.

 

The spring on the guide pin has never been changed and is now in line for a swop. the action is heated to allow the barrel to fit. The standard Ruger 2 bolt clip then goes on as well to hold it. No way thats going to move of its own free will. When I strip it tomorrow I will have a good look at the extractor groove in the barrell for crud.

 

A

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I can check the pin strike postion on mine for comparison.btw does your have the bonded evo on the front as below.

 

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu185/s...r1/DSC00110.jpg

 

Neil

 

Dont quite know what you mean by bonded evo.

 

Mine is very similar to yours, mine has a more rounded forend and a short fluted barrel, other than that, snap !!.

 

I have today stripped it fully and cleaned it. There was a surprising amount of crap on the front end of the bolt for probably 50 rounds. I have probed the extractor groove with a pin and had a poke about, nothing much came out. There are no marks that could indicate that the extractor is fouling the barrell. There was a TINY bit of crap on the bolt face where the bullet picks up near the extractor and there was a bit on the barrel face. There was also a bit of crap on the top of the bolt, this might be forcing the bolt down. The fireing pin will rise if lifted but there is a spring under it that I think holds it down, this was replaced with the pin I think. Maybe a heavier spring here might help.

 

I have tried a live round in the barrel chamber, it is a tight fit as you would expect but does go in all the way and comes out with a finger nail under the case rim. The bullet fits the bolt face ok, if anything is seems a shade loose. The cocking lever and spring seem fine and have been cleaned up. A friend has a spare spring so we could give that a go but the end of the rod is crimped, cutting the crimp is easy but putting a new one on less so. I dont think there is a lot wrong with the cocking lever, but the bit of crap near the extractor may cause the issue.

 

The bore has been treated initially with Butchs bore shine and now its currently getting a good soak in Rimfire Blend which is formulated to remove lead/wax build up

 

http://www.boretech.com/products/rimfireblend.shtml

 

 

There seems nothing wrong with the trigger, the hammer comes forward with a good thwack.

 

So we progress onward.

 

What sort of accuracy do you get out of yours with subbies?, what feed does it prefer?, they were designed around Lapua Pistol match. Good bullet but a solid.

 

Thanks

 

A

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I hope that the clean up has sorted your light pin touch.

I get around 1/2" at 50yds if I'm shooting ok. Takes me a few rounds to get used to the trigger after an annie set up though. Eleys have been good in the past but were not to good with a new batch I breifly tried the other night, accuracy wise.

Lapua hollow point are good and iirc I ran some cci that were good sometime ago. Still got half a box of pistol match tucked away.

It seems to cycle all rounds, but when the action needs a clean it starts to stove pipe rounds. I clean it in trike or similar and use z powder as a lube .

Biggest problem I've had is burnt powder fouling the ruger mags and stopping the vane rotating. Virtually guarenteed click on a reloaded mag with eley. I'm a bit concerned with mine that the mod is bonded on preventing a look at the muzzle crown regarding corrosion.

 

Neil

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Mine is also about 1/2 inch at 50 yards in good conditions and I am doing my bit.

 

My chamber could not handle Winnies/magtech that I was using in my previous Annie 1712, even Eley 36gr SSHPs gunged it up at about 40 rounds. The chambers are very tight, far tighter than my Shilen barrelled back up. I took it back to Theoben and they took a shade out of the rear of the chamber, fired cases come out with a bit of a step in them. Normally works like a charm. The Lapua round is very clean (and expensive) so we had to make it a bit more practical while still retaining good accuracy !!.

 

It is still ammo sensative, does not like Winnies but loves the 40 grain Eleys. Ironically my Shilen barrelled one hates the Eley 40s and wont cycle them.

 

If your barrel is long, mine is not that far in front of the forend then you could always cut the moddy off and recrown the barrell. I use a Theoben air rifle moddy on mine ( I tested the prototype on my rimmy before it was released for air rifles), an adapor pushes over the barrel and is allan keyed into place.

 

A

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Thanks A,

Does your theo mod stay in position on the amt with just the grub screw. There seems to be a theme with rimmy's that they either like winchester or eley and vice versa, my sako's the same dislikes eleys.

 

Neil

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Thanks A,

Does your theo mod stay in position on the amt with just the grub screw. There seems to be a theme with rimmy's that they either like winchester or eley and vice versa, my sako's the same dislikes eleys.

 

Neil

 

 

Yes, there is an ali sleeve over the barrel that is a tight interferance fit, the moddy center tube screws onto it, that alone would be enough but the allen key just secures it into a small slot milled into the barrel. baffle is a one piece artical made out of some sort of plastic type material, never had it out, Ben taylor told me not to bother and as I put maybe 15,000 through the prototype with a strip or problem I have not touched it. Dont use rimmys much these days.

 

Winchesters/magtech are much too greasy for a semi IMHO, you know how fast you can knock through rounds with them. Lapua hollow points are fine but very expensive so Eley it has been for maybe the last 10 years.

 

A

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A. Its sound very much like the firing pin is worn. Check the pin face for wear, it will most likely have a recessed section [at the bottom ] where its struck the cases. This is known as "parrots beaking", and its probarbly rising in the slot due to wear, and the pin hole also wearing. Replace it.

 

Brain fart.

You HAVE replaced the pin.

The cases aren,t reaching the top of the bolt face recess then.

Take the extractor out, and try it. Daft as it sounds, some guns will only feed from hi-cap mags, with a standard extractor fitted. If you want one to try, shout up, and i,ll dig you one out of the spares bin.

Hi cap mags are a nightmare, unless they are the tactical innovations adjustable ones.

The problem being, they are never in the same position twice, in a feed relationship to the bore, as their weight gets lighter with every shot. You have to build in some "slack" hence the trick of using a std extractor. The ammo could have a different rim thickness too. Rimfire ammo has wildly varying tolerances,

There is a batch of winchester subs about at the moment, thats splitting under the firing pin...the brass is so crap.

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A. Its sound very much like the firing pin is worn. Check the pin face for wear, it will most likely have a recessed section [at the bottom ] where its struck the cases. This is known as "parrots beaking", and its probarbly rising in the slot due to wear, and the pin hole also wearing. Replace it.

 

Dave,

We have already fitted a new ti firing pin as per Alycidons original post, so the issue lies somewhere else, what else do you think it could be?

 

Ian.

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:wacko: Going round in circles here Ian.

 

It could be any number of tiny little things.

It could be the feed lips on the mags are worn.

Extractor.

peened chamber.

ammo.

etc etc.

I,ve a workshop full of relevant bits, that can be tried for nowt. If you cant fix it, and want to stand the postage both ways, i,ll give you a couple of hours labour for nowt A. if it needs parts, you can pay for what it needs.

Chasing a problem on a gun like that can get very expensive, i,ve seen it happen.

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hi guys ,

 

this may sound a stupid sugestion but have you tried firing the gun held up side down ie mag on the top so everything is falling tight as it where it may work or not but if it cycles ok then at least you have an idea that something isnt running true the right way up or isnt feeding right.

also will remove any slack from bolt groves etc as it will be running near as true as when new .

 

graham.

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I am curious about how "tight" the chamber is. Will the cartridge fall in to the rim or does it need a push? Also, I still think you should still try firing the rifle sans extractor. It's just a good practice if the barrel can't be removed easily enough to allow a conventional check. If the extractor is bottoming on the cuts it will hold the bolt back a tad.~Andrew

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I am curious about how "tight" the chamber is. Will the cartridge fall in to the rim or does it need a push? Also, I still think you should still try firing the rifle sans extractor. It's just a good practice if the barrel can't be removed easily enough to allow a conventional check. If the extractor is bottoming on the cuts it will hold the bolt back a tad.~Andrew

 

 

I am tied up for a couple of days now but will carry on later in the week. The cartridge needs a push into the chamber although the chamber currently needs a brushing to make sure it is perfectly clean. It is being soaked at present. Personally I am sure the fireing pin is riding up in the slot OR that bit of crap near the extractor was holding the fresh round too low on the bolt face. Mind you it was tiny, maybe a pin head size in total.

 

There is a fix on the pin, fitting a roll pin through the bolt 1 thou above the firing pin to hold it down, that maybe the next port of call if changing springs, checking extractors etc does not effect a cure.

 

A

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