scopes

[riflemanread]

Hi guys i have been looking at scopes with target turrets for some long range work,30mm tube would be best.

The scope would need to work with the ballistic programs that are around and have good magnification.

I am going to trade in my swaro 6x24x50 with tds4 ret.

The swaro doesnt have target turrets and the cross hair is a bit thick for small targets at extended ranges.

So the question is what dial in scopes do you guys use for long range shooting.

Thanks Fellas.

Andy

[ejg223]

Andy I would have suggested Zeiss Conquest,

but have no experience with them.

Has anyone here have experience with the

zeiss conquest range with target turrets?

They would be 1" tube, but are at least not too heavy.

Some american posts regard them as better glas

than Leupold.

 

edi

[Vermincinerator]

Andy,

Realistically, to meet the criteria you have laid down there are only three choices, Leupold, Nightforce and Schmidt & Bender,

I am a Leupold man so i would reccomend an VXIII 8.5-25x50 LRT but have been told that the optics on the others are better, i have never done a comparison so i dont know.

My advice would be to go along to York guns and have thorough look through what they have to offer and make a decision on your own findings.

 

Ian.

[Jager SA]

I second the Zeiss, very good scopes. Good clean crisp adjustment and for the money you cant complain.

[Alycidon]

I second the Zeiss, very good scopes. Good clean crisp adjustment and for the money you cant complain.

 

 

Personally I use a Swaro PVS 6x24x50, this is very similar to your scope Andy but has target turrets on it at 6 clicks to the inch and has parrallax adjustment. It is fitted with the Light Plex reticule which will be similar in cross hair thickness as yours, I get on fine with it but I find Ziess light transmission better after dark.

 

You may not have seen this, Ziess's latest reticule system rapid Z, as you will see it is available in a wide range of scopes.

 

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6132&PN=1

 

Thing is most people range and dial so it makes me wonder just how usefull these extra lines are, also looks like a US import job at present. Cross hairs do look pretty fine though, a bit to fine maybe for my liking but I do not really go beyond 300 yards at present.

 

A

[Guest 308Panther]

Stay away from a 1in tube....and get one w/ a 30mm tube as they have more internal vertical adj.....

If going with a Leupold the M1 knobs are generally 1/4 moa adj and the M3 knobs are 1/2 moa so w/ an M3 it may be possible to dial up for 1,000 in one turn...

And depending on caliber and bullet you may be able order with a BDC turret...but check your retailer to confirm.

 

308Panther

[DeltaV]

Thing is most people range and dial so it makes me wonder just how usefull these extra lines are,

 

a range finding reticle is a redundant back up for the day when your range finder packs in, its battery goes flat of its too foggy to get a reading. Its also good practice and fun to use. It also gives you reference points for hold over and windage should you need it. certain reticles are howevere far to busy and can be distracting,

 

There are several things to consider when choosing a scope for long range work. And once you have chosen a scope, you need to choose the right reticle.

 

do you range in yards or meters,?

do you like to adjust zero in inches or fractions there of or MOA or Miliradians. ?

what will the overall rifle weight add upto with the scope on board.

Price factor.

Availability factor,

 

For a lightish stalking rifle i'd look serously at the Zeiss Conquest, or a S&B zenith with adjustable BDC's

 

I can highly recomend the S&B PMII's but they tend to be heavy and bulky, thats what i use but the size and weight isn't everyones cup of tea.

 

Pete

[craigyboy]

I know the swarovski doesnt meet the criteria of exactly want you want in a long range scope, but I think you are going to find it hard to match it in the optics department, Nightforce wont beat it and neither will leupold, I compared a leupold 8.5-32X50 with a nightforce and swarovski and the swarovski was much better, I have never looked through a zeiss but from what I have been told they are the next step up from a leupold. I have seen one scope to beat the swarovski very very slightly and that was the schmit bender PM 11, a guy had one yesterday at the range and it was truly brilliant but the recticle was far too clutered for me shooting at small targets at long range I dont think varminting is right for these scopes as the recticle is quite thick, bear in mind this was mounted on a unique alpine 300 win mag and I think that is the right place for a scope like that. If youre looking for target turrets as Alycidon said you can get the swarovski with a target turrets and a nice light plex recticle That would be my first choice and I am going that way once I get the money together I am currently using a swarovski scope and really like it just want more mag and target turrets, if that doesnt float youre boat (which I dont think it will as you have had the swarovski and probably want something completely different) I dont think a nightforce will dissapoint you.

[ejg223]

Hi Pete,

those bcd's on a zenith, do you mean

the precision hunter style? Or do they

offer other versions?

The PMII just seems a bit out of reach price wise.

Maybe a classic converted could be a compromise.

What's the delivery times for a conversion these days?

 

edi

[Alycidon]

I know the swarovski doesnt meet the criteria of exactly want you want in a long range scope, but I think you are going to find it hard to match it in the optics department, Nightforce wont beat it and neither will leupold, I compared a leupold 8.5-32X50 with a nightforce and swarovski and the swarovski was much better, I have never looked through a zeiss but from what I have been told they are the next step up from a leupold. I have seen one scope to beat the swarovski very very slightly and that was the schmit bender PM 11, a guy had one yesterday at the range and it was truly brilliant but the recticle was far too clutered for me shooting at small targets at long range I dont think varminting is right for these scopes as the recticle is quite thick, bear in mind this was mounted on a unique alpine 300 win mag and I think that is the right place for a scope like that. If youre looking for target turrets as Alycidon said you can get the swarovski with a target turrets and a nice light plex recticle That would be my first choice and I am going that way once I get the money together I am currently using a swarovski scope and really like it just want more mag and target turrets, if that doesnt float youre boat (which I dont think it will as you have had the swarovski and probably want something completely different) I dont think a nightforce will dissapoint you.

 

 

I had a look through a Nighforce NSX 8x32x56 the other week after dark and rated its ability in the dark as very slightly better than my Swaro 50mm, it may well have been the other 6mm of lens diameter coming into play.

 

I can only sugget you go to a big retailer and look through them on a winters evening (when its dark!). My only experiance with Ziess is a Diavari C 3x9x36, this is a 1" tube and is superior to everything else I have looked through at night except dedicated NV gear. I would expect the modern versions to be superior to mine.

 

If you are not intending to use it much at night then this is academic and maybe Nightforce with their well known repeatabilty may be the best option for you. Mind you they are a bit dearer than the PVS unless you can find a decent used one.

 

A

 

A

[Guest Norway]

I'm quite opinionated when it comes to longrange scopes, but to my defence I can say I have tried a lot of the scopes available for the job. Please keep in mind that some of my statements are true for Norway (e.g. prices) and might not be the same for you. Here goes:

 

Schmidt & Bender PMII series:

Hands down the best scope for long range shooting. This is a heavy military scope and somewhat cumbersome for hunting. Everything on this scope is where it's supposed to be, first plane reticle, metric clicks that correspond with the reticle. Turrets the most user friendly. In short, the PMII are well conceived scope that will not leave you wanting.

 

S&B hunting scopes can be retrofitted with target turrets (about 32 clicks) that makes the scope a very good allrounder for hunting/ longrangeshooting.

 

Leupold:

Have shot the mark 4 series and was not impressed. Variable eye-relief with magnification and I had to use 20x all the time if I wanted a perfect sightpicture. Very tight field of view. Mechanically sound, but MOA clicks and several turns with no dead-certain way of identifying the number of clicks you've put on unless you are intimately familiar with the scope. At a price almost like the PMII this scope is not worth the money. Should be half price.

 

Nightforce:

A lot of our shooters has had them, but they get rid of them after 1 or 2 years. Reasons as with the Leupold. First focal plane scopes are simply easier to use.

 

Zeiss/ Hensoldt:

The military Hensoldt and the civilian Zeiss are basically the same scopes, main difference being laser protection and click size. The civilian Zeiss has 0,5cm clicks which makes for a lot of turret-turning and has reticle in 2nd focal plane. Hensoldt has all the features of the S&B PMII but at a significantly larger pricetag.

 

Ordinary Zeiss hunting scopes can be retrofitted with target turrets for about £100. These offer ample adjustment (about 75 clicks with the new turret style) and will do you good for almost 800 meters with most cartridges. My favorite for an allround scope for hunting and longrangeshooting - all you want in a hunting scope, and the most important features yuo should be looking for in a LR scope (optical excellence, 1st image plane reticle, metric clicks that correspond to reticle).

 

Swarovski:

Allthough very good scopes, I feel that their LR scopes have been built by engineers without any experience shooting LR. These scopes run out of adjustment quickly, which a dedicated LR scope shouldn't do. Click adjustment not really compatible with anything, making calculating needed click adjustment a bugger.

 

---

1st focal plane: Reticle grows with magnification and target/reticle ratio always stays the same. Good as you can actually use the reticle for corrections as opposed to sighting only.

 

2nd focal plane: Reticle stays the same size regardless of magnification. Not good, a very real source for error as the reticle will be useful at one magnification only.

[Guest A-max]

I'm quite opinionated when it comes to longrange scopes, but to my defence I can say I have tried a lot of the scopes available for the job. Please keep in mind that some of my statements are true for Norway (e.g. prices) and might not be the same for you. Here goes:

 

Schmidt & Bender PMII series:

Hands down the best scope for long range shooting. This is a heavy military scope and somewhat cumbersome for hunting. Everything on this scope is where it's supposed to be, first plane reticle, metric clicks that correspond with the reticle. Turrets the most user friendly. In short, the PMII are well conceived scope that will not leave you wanting.

 

S&B hunting scopes can be retrofitted with target turrets (about 32 clicks) that makes the scope a very good allrounder for hunting/ longrangeshooting.

 

Leupold:

Have shot the mark 4 series and was not impressed. Variable eye-relief with magnification and I had to use 20x all the time if I wanted a perfect sightpicture. Very tight field of view. Mechanically sound, but MOA clicks and several turns with no dead-certain way of identifying the number of clicks you've put on unless you are intimately familiar with the scope. At a price almost like the PMII this scope is not worth the money. Should be half price.

 

Nightforce:

A lot of our shooters has had them, but they get rid of them after 1 or 2 years. Reasons as with the Leupold. First focal plane scopes are simply easier to use.

 

Zeiss/ Hensoldt:

The military Hensoldt and the civilian Zeiss are basically the same scopes, main difference being laser protection and click size. The civilian Zeiss has 0,5cm clicks which makes for a lot of turret-turning and has reticle in 2nd focal plane. Hensoldt has all the features of the S&B PMII but at a significantly larger pricetag.

 

Ordinary Zeiss hunting scopes can be retrofitted with target turrets for about £100. These offer ample adjustment (about 75 clicks with the new turret style) and will do you good for almost 800 meters with most cartridges. My favorite for an allround scope for hunting and longrangeshooting - all you want in a hunting scope, and the most important features yuo should be looking for in a LR scope (optical excellence, 1st image plane reticle, metric clicks that correspond to reticle).

 

Swarovski:

Allthough very good scopes, I feel that their LR scopes have been built by engineers without any experience shooting LR. These scopes run out of adjustment quickly, which a dedicated LR scope shouldn't do. Click adjustment not really compatible with anything, making calculating needed click adjustment a bugger.

 

---

1st focal plane: Reticle grows with magnification and target/reticle ratio always stays the same. Good as you can actually use the reticle for corrections as opposed to sighting only.

 

2nd focal plane: Reticle stays the same size regardless of magnification. Not good, a very real source for error as the reticle will be useful at one magnification only.

 

Totaly agree with your post Norway, exelent!!!

 

What do you shoot with on your rifles? Make, moddle, mag, reticule????

 

My PM11 4-16x50 P4 FINE will be here in 3 weeks, cant wait!!!

 

A-max

[baldie]

Interesting to see what and how people around the world value in a telescopic sight isn,t it? Norway likes the cm clicks on a scope, i would suggest, because he is european, and europe is well used to the metric system. Here in the UK, you cant give scopes away that dial in cm,s , in fact, i,ve recently bought a 5-25 schmidt, and i specifically stated it must have 1/4 MOA adjustment. The targets we shoot at are sized in moa, and are shot at in yards, so you can see why we like them. I also specified 2nd focal plane, as i dont like the size of a schmidt reticule at full mag, and dont use the reticule for holdover anyway, couldn,t see the point with such a superb system as the double turn one on the s+b.

[Guest Norway]

I privately use the S&BPMII 4-16x50 w ordinary mildot as it was available at the time. Good scope.

 

Baldie, yes scope preference very much depends on where your from. If you use imperical measurements, go imperical all the way and use MOA. If you're metric use MIL. Strongly advice against using measure units one is not familiar with, or worst of all mixing MIL and MOA in one scope.

[huntsman]

I am also looking for a long range varminting scope. but would really like something light weight (to lighten the rig) so seems as though leupold would be the way to go? I have never owned a leupold. Are they really that inferior when compared with S&B and nightforce ?

I have a Nightforce Nsx and S&b classic 3-12x50 and to be honest I think the schmidt has the edge, (and maybe even the best make around) . I would prefer to wait and buy right, as you loose so much trying to sell them second hand.

If the quality requires the scope to be heavy so be it, I wouldn't hesitate in buying another S&B or nightforce.

dave

[Zaitsev]

Does anybody on here use the new Zeiss Diavari 6-24 x56 or 72 are they made in Germany?. They seem really nice scopes and are a bit less costly than the Schmidts. Hensoldt are the german military version yes?

20ppc uses one I think...

 

z

[Ronin]

Interesting to see what and how people around the world value in a telescopic sight isn,t it? Norway likes the cm clicks on a scope, i would suggest, because he is european, and europe is well used to the metric system. Here in the UK, you cant give scopes away that dial in cm,s , in fact, i,ve recently bought a 5-25 schmidt, and i specifically stated it must have 1/4 MOA adjustment. The targets we shoot at are sized in moa, and are shot at in yards, so you can see why we like them. I also specified 2nd focal plane, as i dont like the size of a schmidt reticule at full mag, and dont use the reticule for holdover anyway, couldn,t see the point with such a superb system as the double turn one on the s+b.

 

Baldie

 

 

I hear what you say about the MOA ajustment on S&B (or any scope for that matter) but it really shouldn't matter what system the scope uses for ajustment. (IPHY, MOA, Milradian/CM etc) - the shooter can compensate and adapt to every type providing he uses the correct table that correspoinds with the range and drop of his bullet at that range.

 

If the Scope is set to MOA ajustment then at 100 yards one click should move the reticule 1/4 MOA or .261" (1.047" / 4)

 

If the scope is set to Milradian ajustment, then at 100 yards one click will equal 1/10th Mil (on S&B PM11 anyway) or .360" (3.6" / 10)

 

If the scope is set to CM ajustment then at 100 yards one click will mean .360" again (4 clicks of turret = .914centimeters)

 

Providing the shooter ranges the target in yards or meters and has the drop table that corresponds to the ajustment value for his scope there shouldn't be really be a problem.

 

Re First Focal vs Second Focal plane, then I disagree in part (again its a personal preference here).

 

If I were to use a rangefinder all the time and nothing else, then 2nd focal plane would win every time (I have three Leup MK4s with this system and use RF all the time)

 

However, if I need to range a known size target without RF (as happens in some practical/military comps), then a FFP scope with Mil Dot would be my choice, with the FFP system, I am able to judge the distance at ANY magnification, rather than the 2nd FP where it has to be done at a preset mag - (usually max which with a 5-25 power scope would / may cause problems in low light / close target situations)

 

I wonder if you have considered getting a 5-25 PM11 with a P4 fine reticule - even at 25 power the reticule only covers .13" at 100 yards and 1.3" at 1000 !

 

Oh the PM11's are a phenomenal scope.

[325WSM]

I am also looking for a long range varminting scope. but would really like something light weight (to lighten the rig) so seems as though leupold would be the way to go? I have never owned a leupold. Are they really that inferior when compared with S&B and nightforce ?

I have a Nightforce Nsx and S&b classic 3-12x50 and to be honest I think the schmidt has the edge, (and maybe even the best make around) . I would prefer to wait and buy right, as you loose so much trying to sell them second hand.

If the quality requires the scope to be heavy so be it, I wouldn't hesitate in buying another S&B or nightforce.

dave

 

Send a PM to 17Rem.

 

He has a new unused Zeiss for sale 5-15x42. Fixed parallax with No 4 reticule. They are by far the lightest high mag variable available but are now no longer on sale in the UK. Sportsman retail was around £650

 

I have 2 on a couple of my Deer rifles and would not change them for anything else if you want a lightweight, small but excellent light gathering scope.

 

To reduce weight further look at Tally all in one mounts / rings. Super quality in aluminum, so very light. If you want a US source that will sell to you at best US prices email me. mry716@hotmail.com and I will put you in touch with a Gunshop owner friend.

[20ppc]

Does anybody on here use the new Zeiss Diavari 6-24 x56 or 72 are they made in Germany?. They seem really nice scopes and are a bit less costly than the Schmidts. Hensoldt are the german military version yes?

20ppc uses one I think...

 

Zaitsev,

 

I have been using a Zeiss 6-24 x 72 for about 10 months having changed from a Nightforce NXS. Yes it is made in Germany and the quality is superb. I paid £1300 which is slightly less than the S&B. Light gathering is excellent,you can even use max mag when lamping if needed!!!. Hensoldt are the military version but are now made by Zeiss.

 

Regards

 

 

20ppc.

[baldie]

Baldie

I hear what you say about the MOA ajustment on S&B (or any scope for that matter) but it really shouldn't matter what system the scope uses for ajustment. (IPHY, MOA, Milradian/CM etc) - the shooter can compensate and adapt to every type providing he uses the correct table that correspoinds with the range and drop of his bullet at that range.

 

If the Scope is set to MOA ajustment then at 100 yards one click should move the reticule 1/4 MOA or .261" (1.047" / 4)

 

If the scope is set to Milradian ajustment, then at 100 yards one click will equal 1/10th Mil (on S&B PM11 anyway) or .360" (3.6" / 10)

 

If the scope is set to CM ajustment then at 100 yards one click will mean .360" again (4 clicks of turret = .914centimeters)

 

Providing the shooter ranges the target in yards or meters and has the drop table that corresponds to the ajustment value for his scope there shouldn't be really be a problem.

 

Re First Focal vs Second Focal plane, then I disagree in part (again its a personal preference here).

 

If I were to use a rangefinder all the time and nothing else, then 2nd focal plane would win every time (I have three Leup MK4s with this system and use RF all the time)

 

However, if I need to range a known size target without RF (as happens in some practical/military comps), then a FFP scope with Mil Dot would be my choice, with the FFP system, I am able to judge the distance at ANY magnification, rather than the 2nd FP where it has to be done at a preset mag - (usually max which with a 5-25 power scope would / may cause problems in low light / close target situations)

 

I wonder if you have considered getting a 5-25 PM11 with a P4 fine reticule - even at 25 power the reticule only covers .13" at 100 yards and 1.3" at 1000 !

 

Oh the PM11's are a phenomenal scope.

 

Hi Andy...., ive got a 5-25 schmidt sat here, and i,ve had it 3 months, waiting to go on the custom .308. Rings came yesterday [badger] and i,m only waiting on the stock now. scope is 2,nd fp, for the reasons i stated. I,ve several top end scopes, all on MOA, and i aint gonna confuse things further.....this one is mil dot, for no other reason, than its what they had. I,m not bothered, as long as their is a cross in the middle, its going on a target gun, where the ranges are known, and if not, i,ve a rangefinder, and if that fails, it will be a guess, because i,m too thick/idle to work out the mildots.....life is too bleedin short buddy I like to dial mate, its a system i,ve been used to for almost 30 years. You will be welcome to a good few rounds down the new cannon at diggle when its done....i,ve a gut feeling its gonna be special...

Best wishes, dave.

[Ronin]

Cheers mate

 

 

I also have a PM 11 5x25 - 56 sat three feet from where I type P4 fine ret and miradian turrets (1/10ths) he he he.

 

 

Not going to say what it is being attached to just yet- but I collect tomorrow (oops, tday!)

 

 

See you soon at the big D