Labradar with small calibres

[DaveT]

VERY happy with this until I use 223 where recording is patchy.

I would be interested in other users experiences re small calibres.

[Roy W]

Never had a problem with 223

[DaveT]

Roy

Where do you position the muzzle?

[Roy W]

With a muzzle brake, 6" forward of the unit. Without, alongside 

[John MH]

Tried the Labradar alongside Magnetospeed V3 (v3 mounted off barrel), velocity results very close and trends up and down the same. Sold the Labradar as it was more faff to use than the Magnetospeed.

[DaveT]

John

I also have a Magnetospeed but unlike yours its just the normal mount which is a faff to setup and keep tight so Labradar is better for me.

Agree they are both accurate.

I have been measuring 223 with a mod fitted so maybe I will try again without the mod to see if it triggers more reliably.

[DaveT]

Roy....same here re positioning.....thanks for feedback.

[Roy W]

The Moderator is probably the issue. Triggering is by sound.

You might be able to read it with the mod if you change the trigger to Doppler, but that will only start registering once the radar picks out the bullet in flight, so less reliable for at the muzzle velocities.

Without the mod you should be fine

[1066]

I've designed and 3d printed a simple sight that clicks on the Labradar with a magnet - helps to line it up easier and makes it less temperamental with the smaller calibres.

 

[DaveT]

Good idea....I use a length of ally tube to sight through although I do have to tape it on each time!

You may have a market for yours if it fits easily.

[1066]

7 minutes ago, DaveT said:

Good idea....I use a length of ally tube to sight through although I do have to tape it on each time!

You may have a market for yours if it fits easily.

Yes, just offer it up and it snaps into place and self-aligns.

[Roy W]

I'll take one

[mitch308]

Me too 

[GT3_richy]

I've used my lab with as small as moderated .17H successfully, just needs very careful alignment and experimentation with muzzle to Lab placement. 20cal and above never had a problem with personally, havent used V3 since I bought Lab.

[204]

Hi I use the mic on my labradar I think it’s for air rifles it works perfect with mods 

[1066]

Roy and Dave - your Labradar sights are in the post.

[204]

8 hours ago, 1066 said:

Roy and Dave - your Labradar sights are in the post.

Hi can I order a labradar sight please 

[1066]

12 hours ago, 204 said:

Hi can I order a labradar sight please 

Hi 204 - For some reason I can't send you a message  - PM me.

[johnnyb0_1]

Evening, I have a Labradar but have found it to be a real faff to use.  I follow the instructions to the letter but most times it doesn't pick up the bullet.  I have access to our club magneto speed and despite the basically tying it onto the barrel I've found it to be reliable.  

1066, gonna try to get to grips with the labradar or move it on.  Any chance I could get one of your printed sights?  Send payment details by PM please.  Thanks.   JP. 

[Andrew]

Good idea. You'd think for the money they ask they would include a sighting system. If I was local I'd order three of them.

As to being a real 'faff' to use, I set up and shoot mine often The only time it doesn't work splendidly is when I forget to change parameters. I use it on 223 and 204 without issues.~Andrew

[1066]

Andrew, I think part of the problem is that the UK Labrador machine works on reduced power. 

[DaveT]

1066 is correct about the ludicrous european constraints on power output but its claimed that this only reduces the tracking range (mine usually tracks out to 50 yards) rather than affecting MV measurement and detection......  makes you wonder though!

[BlueBoy69]

I extensively used Doppler radars as part of a suite of ballistic instrumentation for one of my previous jobs. The biggest problem with Dopplers, after being able to detect the projectile for long enough, is triggering. Get that wrong, especially with high-drag projectiles which small arms generally are, and you can give up trying to get decent muzzle velocity results, or results at all. Bad triggering is more than likely the problem that is occurring here with these small-calibre high-drag projectiles.

The Labradar is normally triggered by acoustic noise (pressure), or a change (increase) in the Doppler signal. The Labradar has three acoustic triggers, the inbuilt high noise level one, plus two external ones, the air-gun trigger and the archery trigger. The inbuilt should work with most unsuppressed guns, the air-gun trigger for air-guns and suppressed guns, and the archery trigger is self-explanatory.

For acoustic triggering, this is something we never used as it was generally impractical on big guns as it was too variable and hence impossible to get the precise muzzle exit times. Precise muzzle exit is required for accurate muzzle velocity prediction, especially on high-drag projectiles and when measuring automatic weapons. A piezo pressure gauge fitted near the muzzle, which would require a hole to be drilled and tapped, was a good pressure trigger but obviously totally impractical for many weapons for many reasons.

Doppler triggering, which is generally caused by the high-pressure propellant gases venting or the projectile as it enters the beam, was used for simpler Doppler systems we used and the error with low-drag projectiles was acceptable. For small arms, their drag is so high in comparison to larger projectiles that a slight error in what is perceived to be muzzle exit will result in an incorrectly calculated muzzle velocity. Also, if the trigger is late and the Doppler low powered, the projectile can be out of detectable range before measurement can occur.

It should be noted that precise muzzle exit times are only required for muzzle velocity prediction, not the measurement downrange. Saying that, a good muzzle exit trigger is required so that the said measurement can at least take place. If the trigger is late and the projectile is out of the beam, or its reflected signal is too weak, you’re not going to get anything.

For me, the Labradar falls down in a number of ways, the first of which is its power supply which is abysmal. It should have a far better battery power system, such as an external battery pack as standard with nothing internal, and an external mains power supply system. It could certainly do with a better non-contact muzzle exit detector, such as a flash detector. It could do with the ability to set the offset distances of the acoustic trigger, to the side and backwards and forwards, so geometric correction of the trigger and Doppler can be made. It would be nice to be able to do some post-analysis, so the ability to save of the digitised raw Doppler signal, or whatever else it might be able to saved, would be nice. The standard tripod is lacking and the aiming ability isn’t very good either, but over the ranges, it works over, probably not much of a problem.

And as an afterthought, well comment, if you want to know the 'muzzle velocity', get an in-bore Doppler, radar or laser. Muzzle velocity is a bit of a misnomer anyway as the bullet is still being accelerated by the existing propellant gases for a few projectile calibres anyway, so the peak velocity isn’t at the muzzle!

[John MH]

1 hour ago, BlueBoy69 said:

I extensively used Doppler radars as part of a suite of ballistic instrumentation for one of my previous jobs. The biggest problem with Dopplers, after being able to detect the projectile for long enough, is triggering. Get that wrong, especially with high-drag projectiles which small arms generally are, and you can give up trying to get decent muzzle velocity results, or results at all. Bad triggering is more than likely the problem that is occurring here with these small-calibre high-drag projectiles.

The Labradar is normally triggered by acoustic noise (pressure), or a change (increase) in the Doppler signal. The Labradar has three acoustic triggers, the inbuilt high noise level one, plus two external ones, the air-gun trigger and the archery trigger. The inbuilt should work with most unsuppressed guns, the air-gun trigger for air-guns and suppressed guns, and the archery trigger is self-explanatory.

For acoustic triggering, this is something we never used as it was generally impractical on big guns as it was too variable and hence impossible to get the precise muzzle exit times. Precise muzzle exit is required for accurate muzzle velocity prediction, especially on high-drag projectiles and when measuring automatic weapons. A piezo pressure gauge fitted near the muzzle, which would require a hole to be drilled and tapped, was a good pressure trigger but obviously totally impractical for many weapons for many reasons.

Doppler triggering, which is generally caused by the high-pressure propellant gases venting or the projectile as it enters the beam, was used for simpler Doppler systems we used and the error with low-drag projectiles was acceptable. For small arms, their drag is so high in comparison to larger projectiles that a slight error in what is perceived to be muzzle exit will result in an incorrectly calculated muzzle velocity. Also, if the trigger is late and the Doppler low powered, the projectile can be out of detectable range before measurement can occur.

It should be noted that precise muzzle exit times are only required for muzzle velocity prediction, not the measurement downrange. Saying that, a good muzzle exit trigger is required so that the said measurement can at least take place. If the trigger is late and the projectile is out of the beam, or its reflected signal is too weak, you’re not going to get anything.

For me, the Labradar falls down in a number of ways, the first of which is its power supply which is abysmal. It should have a far better battery power system, such as an external battery pack as standard with nothing internal, and an external mains power supply system. It could certainly do with a better non-contact muzzle exit detector, such as a flash detector. It could do with the ability to set the offset distances of the acoustic trigger, to the side and backwards and forwards, so geometric correction of the trigger and Doppler can be made. It would be nice to be able to do some post-analysis, so the ability to save of the digitised raw Doppler signal, or whatever else it might be able to saved, would be nice. The standard tripod is lacking and the aiming ability isn’t very good either, but over the ranges, it works over, probably not much of a problem.

And as an afterthought, well comment, if you want to know the 'muzzle velocity', get an in-bore Doppler, radar or laser. Muzzle velocity is a bit of a misnomer anyway as the bullet is still being accelerated by the existing propellant gases for a few projectile calibres anyway, so the peak velocity isn’t at the muzzle!

Have you been able to do any performance comparisons between a UK/EU Labradar model and a US Spec model?

[BlueBoy69]

12 minutes ago, John MH said:

Have you been able to do any performance comparisons between a UK/EU Labradar model and a US Spec model? 

No, not at present. Unless you can play with things such as the digitised Doppler signal, the FFT (fast Fourier transform) waterfall plot of the Doppler signal, or the signal strength of the reflected Doppler signal of the projectile outputted as a table, it would be a hit and miss thing to try and get this info. The more expensive systems I used had this functionality, but the Labradar doesn't as far as I'm aware.

The company that developed the Labradar, Infinition Inc., do make such systems, but they will be very expensive, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds each. Other companies I can remember who make Doppler radars are Prototypa in the Czech Republic and Weibel in Denmark. For some drool-worthy ballistic instrumentation, check their websites. Below.

Infinition Inc.

Prototypa

Weibel

Weibel took over the ballistic instrumentation part of the Terma company, and it was generally their Dopplers I used. You're very unlikely to see the system I used, the DR 5000, though I do have a mug with a picture of it on it.