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sako

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27 minutes ago, Montey said:

On second thoughts just get a 22-250 or 243 win job done it's what I also use for the longer range over 200 yards permissions.

 Montey,

I've used a 22-250 for foxing for many years and loved it before buying the 204, it sits in the cabinet now only coming out for the odd lamping session, the 204 is out regular, and gets to shoot foxes over 200 yds 😂,   if it didn't perform it would be in the cabinet and the 22-250 would be back out instead !!

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26 minutes ago, BuckhurstBen said:

Please enlighten me on how you get Charlie to to co-operate and stand broadside for you every time?!

Make them run, then stop em,  they always turn broadside 😀😀👍

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Bob the  Fox  whisperer  😂😂😂

i know you shoot a lot of fox Bob so what load are you using in the 204 ? And what  velocity are you getting? Please if it's working for you then when I've got time I'll revisit the  204 with a 39g or 40g load and see what it does or me.

 

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4 hours ago, Montey said:

Bob the  Fox  whisperer  😂😂😂

i know you shoot a lot of fox Bob so what load are you using in the 204 ? And what  velocity are you getting? Please if it's working for you then when I've got time I'll revisit the  204 with a 39g or 40g load and see what it does or me.

 

I thought you couldn't be converted montey, and in less than 24hrs later!!!😂😂 😂😂😂😂.

 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 6:17 PM, sako said:

I fancy a 204 but....

I see posts with people going back to 223 from 204?

Anyone tried both?

I know its all about bullet placement ,and You can read all day about ballistics ,but in the field does 204 clean kill foxes ?

 

 

 

Hi Buddy.

I ran both calibres side by side for over a year and done umpteen comparisons.     I came to the conclusion , the 204 didn't do anything that my 223 couldn't do..... but lost out in many other areas.

I know on paper the 204  would appear to have a significant ballistic advantage over the 223  ( that's why I bought mine in the first place  )  but the reality is far from that.   The advantage is based on bullet BC's that are inflated ,  and velocity's which are difficult to achieve. 

If you actually look at the reality of the 204 - it shoots a 40 grn bullet with a BC of approx. 0.250 at around 3700fps  - although its no slouch - its also isn't a big advantage over the 223... if at all .. is it ?  

For example - my own 223 can shoot a Nosler 40grn bullet at 3785 fps and still keep the groups size,  half of the 204 group as seen on this thread.  it does this from a 21 inch tube. ( not 24 + inches that the 204s seem to need)     Also with a simple change of ammo it can shoot the slippery 53 grn Vmax at 3400 fps - which IME hits harder and is a better choice for both foxing and mid range varminting than my 204 was ( using any bullet)  

As you mentioned ballistics ,   my own extensive tests confirmed that the bullet BC in the 204 are hyped up and over stated.   I confirmed this numerous times by comparing the MV against retained velocity at 200 and 300 yrds using 2 chronographs.

This explained why at 400 yrds my shots were always low of the predicted impact on Strelock.    Shooting my 204 and 223 side by side at similar MV at targets at 400 yrds the 223 had about a 1 inch drop more that the 204  - So as said not worth it. IMO.  

If you look a standard 223 with an 8 twist ,  you have access to a range of bullets with BC far higher than the 204 range... and therefore the advantage for long range target / varminting is certainly with the 223.... and they still shoot the light weight bullets and everything in between.  

I am not knocking the 204 - its a great calibre and clearly good enough for foxing  -  But after my fling with a custom barrelled 204 , it was sold and I kept my bog standard 223 Tikka in its place.   I also know quite a few shooters that have been down the 204 road , only to find there wasn't any gain over the 223.   all down to preference at the end of the day

 

ATB

S.

 

 

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On 10/13/2019 at 10:04 AM, Moorlander said:

What would you say is the realistic maximum range for varminting with a .204 ?

Went out with a buddy last Sunday late afternoon ( it's spring here). This farm has a terraced edge that drops off into a river valley and it's Rabbit Central. Took my 700 VS .223 and my gunsmith mate his .204 T3 Varminter (Edi knows who that is). Started shooting about 4.45 and we gave up before 7.30, more than 90 bunnies later 😁   Closest over 120yds, most 180+ and at least ten over 300yds. Clipped one first shot at 400 and scared another crapless at 394. Was very pleased with two successive solid hits at 275yds holding 10-12" into the breeze.

My std twist .223 is shooting 53gr VMaxs very well and his .204 39gr BKs extremely well. The kill rates were indistinguishable but the time of arrival was noticeably quicker with the .204 and the splat factor better under 250yds. I'd have a .204 like his any day. As for wind drift, you really need to go for a 6mm to make major inroads in that. The 400yd ones really needed my 6BR or 6x47L but I didn't have enough loaded ammo at hand to take either.

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20 minutes ago, Chris-NZ said:

Went out with a buddy last Sunday late afternoon ( it's spring here). This farm has a terraced edge that drops off into a river valley and it's Rabbit Central. Took my 700 VS .223 and my gunsmith mate his .204 T3 Varminter (Edi knows who that is). Started shooting about 4.45 and we gave up before 7.30, more than 90 bunnies later 😁   Closest over 120yds, most 180+ and at least ten over 300yds. Clipped one first shot at 400 and scared another crapless at 394. Was very pleased with two successive solid hits at 275yds holding 10-12" into the breeze.

My std twist .223 is shooting 53gr VMaxs very well and his .204 39gr BKs extremely well. The kill rates were indistinguishable but the time of arrival was noticeably quicker with the .204 and the splat factor better under 250yds. I'd have a .204 like his any day. As for wind drift, you really need to go for a 6mm to make major inroads in that. The 400yd ones really needed my 6BR or 6x47L but I didn't have enough loaded ammo at hand to take either.

👍

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Best shot with my current 20 tactical (same as the 204 but uses less powder) is 317 yards confirmed buy 2 people, not on a bunny but on a dog fox,

 

and

 

that was  with a drone and a sunranger ir torch, 40 grain pill dakota brass 23 gr of rl10x tikka 595 medium varmint built by neil Mc,

 

loungest bunny before i put the drone on it was 417 same mix.

 

bob.

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13 hours ago, Montey said:

Bob the  Fox  whisperer  😂😂😂

i know you shoot a lot of fox Bob so what load are you using in the 204 ? And what  velocity are you getting? Please if it's working for you then when I've got time I'll revisit the  204 with a 39g or 40g load and see what it does or me.

 

Montey, I've got a load with vn133 and a load that I'm using at the moment with vn530, both great with 39 grn sbk's both doing around 3800fps depending on the temperature, I found H4895 gave good tight groups and speed also but didn't bother going there.

I'd happily give you my powder load but I use hbn on my bullets, so unless you are a user of the magic powder😀  there's not much point 👍 .

My rifle did not like the 32 grn sbk's  but loves the 39 grn so never bothered with 40's, but if you do want to try 40 grainers might be worth getting some nosler b/t if you can find them, i rated them highly as a fox bullet in 22cal.

Have fun reloading 👍,  or stick with your 223 and forever wonder if the 204 would have worked for you!!

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

Under 300 yards there is little to choose between 204 and 223,   I use a 20BR downloaded to around 204 levels,  over 300 yards wind drift is usually less than the same weight of bullet in 223 but 223 is able to fire much heavier bullets if needed.  Horses for courses.


A

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58 minutes ago, Alycidon said:

Under 300 yards there is little to choose between 204 and 223,   I use a 20BR downloaded to around 204 levels,  over 300 yards wind drift is usually less than the same weight of bullet in 223 but 223 is able to fire much heavier bullets if needed.  Horses for courses.


A

I remember reading your post about having your 20br built, wasn't it because you missed a fox through misreading the range, hence wanting a rifle shooting the flattest bullet, why download a 20br when you especially wanted one of the flattest rounds possible for your fox shooting!!

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Used to have a 223, run with 53gr vmax..

got bored & fancied a change, so I had Bradders re-barrel it to a 20 prac.

I only needed to buy 1 die for the change over & used the same brass etc

 now I run 39gr Sierra BLK's, it's on my night rifle ( photon xt extreme ) & I happily shoot + / - 1" to 250 yards - everything is a kill shot, nothing runs & Cheap to run 

wish I had done it years ago 

 

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16 hours ago, treetop said:

Used to have a 223, run with 53gr vmax..

got bored & fancied a change, so I had Bradders re-barrel it to a 20 prac.

I only needed to buy 1 die for the change over & used the same brass etc

 now I run 39gr Sierra BLK's, it's on my night rifle ( photon xt extreme ) & I happily shoot + / - 1" to 250 yards - everything is a kill shot, nothing runs & Cheap to run 

wish I had done it years ago 

 

Hi Buddy.

Just wondered what benefits your actually seeing from moving to a  20 Tact from a 223 .

Given that the 223 can zip a 40 grn pill at 3800fps so trajectories are similar  - Accuracy potential should be similar  -  So is  , Noise - Recoil - Cost of running + Barrel life.     And  I am absolutely certain the 53 grn pills hits harder than a 39 grn - 20 cal bullet.

The reason I ask is several years back ,   I had a Pacnor barrel fitted in 204r ,  -  but went back to the 223 ....  I found the 20 cal didn't offer any advantage.

 

 

ATB

S

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42 minutes ago, Chikentikka said:

if you reload.. 20-250 or 20x47. 55grainers at warp speed. or go for a hot 22(creedmoor) or a 6mm.  you cant kill something too much but can sharp send something running off with a gaping hole in its shoulder for doris to find in her garden watering the geraniums.

 

I've just tried to make some sort of sense of this......needless to say to no avail 🙃

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Hi Buddy .......

It's a 20 Prac, not 20 Tac ...  Not much in it, but a distinct Differance that it's a necked down 223 , with no need to fireform or do anything different. Unlike the 20 Tac which requires more changes.

To switch over, other than a barrel you , Just change the bushing in a FL die & change the expander to a .204 instead of 223. Still uses a 223 seating die.

so...... 

Noise - less

recoil - less, but not like you feel it 

easier to spot your fall of shot, especially with digital NV - no white out like a 223 gave 

cheaper to run - yep, but only the bullet cost, as the powder load is almost the same

Energy - not much in it  ( about 45 ft-lbs ) Differance at 200 yards

wind drift - less on the 39gr than the 53gr 

speed - faster on the 39gr over the 53gr 

Trajectory - flatter further with the 39gr

My 223 did not like the 40gr Bullets, the 53gr was the lightest it would shoot consistently & accurately.

it needed a new barrel & I still wanted a varmint night rifle in a small cal, so it fitted the bill & works flawlessly.

would I own a 223 again .... Maybe if I need to take muntjac & didn't own other rifles then yeah.   But as a varmint gun that does what I want it to .... Not at this point in time, as the 20 is plenty ! 

 

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9 minutes ago, treetop said:

Hi Buddy .......

It's a 20 Prac, not 20 Tac ...  Not much in it, but a distinct Differance that it's a necked down 223 , with no need to fireform or do anything different. Unlike the 20 Tac which requires more changes.

To switch over, other than a barrel you , Just change the bushing in a FL die & change the expander to a .204 instead of 223. Still uses a 223 seating die.

so...... 

Noise - less

recoil - less, but not like you feel it 

easier to spot your fall of shot, especially with digital NV - no white out like a 223 gave 

cheaper to run - yep, but only the bullet cost, as the powder load is almost the same

Energy - not much in it  ( about 45 ft-lbs ) Differance at 200 yards

wind drift - less on the 39gr than the 53gr 

speed - faster on the 39gr over the 53gr 

Trajectory - flatter further with the 39gr

My 223 did not like the 40gr Bullets, the 53gr was the lightest it would shoot consistently & accurately.

it needed a new barrel & I still wanted a varmint night rifle in a small cal, so it fitted the bill & works flawlessly.

would I own a 223 again .... Maybe if I need to take muntjac & didn't own other rifles then yeah.   But as a varmint gun that does what I want it to .... Not at this point in time, as the 20 is plenty ! 

 

Indeed, I get all that....BUT

 

56 minutes ago, snakeman said:

you cant kill something too much but can sharp send something running off with a gaping hole in its shoulder for doris to find in her garden watering the geraniums.

My perplexity is with Doris and her geraniums ... 

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I’ve a 204 and it’s used as a winged vermin gun only point and shoot to near enough 250 yards .as for a be all end all don’t worry about bullet placement flat as a nuns top half your hard beaten to look past 243 with 58 grain vmax can run it around 3400 with ease and as long as you hit the target anywhere they dead 

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14 hours ago, treetop said:

Hi Buddy .......

It's a 20 Prac, not 20 Tac ...  Not much in it, but a distinct Differance that it's a necked down 223 , with no need to fireform or do anything different. Unlike the 20 Tac which requires more changes.

To switch over, other than a barrel you , Just change the bushing in a FL die & change the expander to a .204 instead of 223. Still uses a 223 seating die.

so...... 

Noise - less

recoil - less, but not like you feel it 

easier to spot your fall of shot, especially with digital NV - no white out like a 223 gave 

cheaper to run - yep, but only the bullet cost, as the powder load is almost the same

Energy - not much in it  ( about 45 ft-lbs ) Differance at 200 yards

wind drift - less on the 39gr than the 53gr 

speed - faster on the 39gr over the 53gr 

Trajectory - flatter further with the 39gr

My 223 did not like the 40gr Bullets, the 53gr was the lightest it would shoot consistently & accurately.

it needed a new barrel & I still wanted a varmint night rifle in a small cal, so it fitted the bill & works flawlessly.

would I own a 223 again .... Maybe if I need to take muntjac & didn't own other rifles then yeah.   But as a varmint gun that does what I want it to .... Not at this point in time, as the 20 is plenty ! 

 

Hi Buddy

Thanks for the reply.  

The world would be a duller place if we all thought the same

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13 hours ago, Chikentikka said:

I’m talking about little bullets wounding foxes for others to find.. perplexing I know

Are you talking about little bullets that come out of the end of a 17hmr or little bullets from a centerfire??

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