PRL 2020 - what would you change???

[lapua]

Any comments, constructive criticism or ideas to share?

[lapua]

I’ll start...

dump the ELR day and run 2 PRL days but allow single day entry. That would potentially open up PRL to more shooters attending, still allow those travelling a long way 2 days shooting, allow those on a budget to compete, and spice up the leaderboard/competative side of things.   

[John MH]

The ELR format needs work if it's to be considered a serious competition, I'd like it to remain an option as part of a weekend package but be limited to 1200+ yards and ideally out to at least 2000 yards so venues are likely to be few.

[DaveT]

Just my view but an ELR competition would seem to be at odds with the same time pressures as the PRL day.

 

[Charlts]

Drop the ELR element, replacing it with a precision rimfire comp would be mega and a great way to kick off the .22 PRL series.

[srvet]

Whilst I have only done 2 comps this year they were both an absolute hoot! 

Thinking what would be best for the PRL as an ongoing uk venture would be to bury the hatchet regarding disagreements over the past year and host the comps on as many ranges in the country as possible. This may obviously require some degree of compromise to occur. Failing to do this will inevitably fragment what is already a minority sport to everyone’s detriment as competing organisations will spring up as in the USA. This may however inject market forces with regard to entrance fees. One way or another this will succeed or fail based on numbers of participants so breaking down barriers of cost, distance and time commitment  would be good starting points  

With regard to competition format I would echo the separation of the PRL and the ELR as they are very different and both niche. Perhaps one day comps would be more accessible and the same comp could be run on two consecutive days as many clay shoots are. 

Some other suggestion would be to incorporate some long barrel 22 LR pistol and close range 22 semi auto stages for shits and giggles. These may need guns/ammo to be provided but sponsors may be prepared to help 

 

[Scotch_egg]

At least run the PRS and ELR as completely different competitions with separate pricing. 

 

I have no interest in ELR and don’t see it has a direct link to PRS shooting. 

[TC]

I agree the ELR day does not sit comfortably with the PRL day - it’s a different mindset and the timing inevitably ends up being rushed for true ELR due to the number of shooters.  

IMO ELR needs to shift to a focus on calculated shots and first hit percentages as opposed to the current shoot-spot-correct which was the norm last year outside of Gardener’s.  

Calibre squadding and restrictions need more thought - gun weight is potentially more appropriate than calibre.

I’d prefer to see a PRL day and a training/.22 day with ELR being a separately scheduled event but I have plenty of time these days !

I would also be keen to try true team PRL comps and events which included hike/movement between firing points as per Mammoth, Vortex Extreme etc.  That said there would need to be some consideration for us aging, unfit civvies .......

[Sapper811]

I don’t shoot PRL as my time is taken up with CSR every month at Diggle. However I am really quite shocked at this thread. I and a few select others organise, manage and run all CSR comps at Diggle. Near 30 individual competitions per year. And yes it is hard work but we love it. As far as I see it ONE man has had the time, energy and drive to get PRL started in the UK and what do you lot do ??? Discuss what’s wrong with it and how it can be changed !!FFS !! If you don’t like it get off your arse and sort something yourself ! Competitions happen because of the few who give their time to make it happen. If you don’t like it then take up something else ! 

[Scotch_egg]

5 minutes ago, Sapper811 said:

I don’t shoot PRL as my time is taken up with CSR every month at Diggle. However I am really quite shocked at this thread. I and a few select others organise, manage and run all CSR comps at Diggle. Near 30 individual competitions per year. And yes it is hard work but we love it. As far as I see it ONE man has had the time, energy and drive to get PRL started in the UK and what do you lot do ??? Discuss what’s wrong with it and how it can be changed !!FFS !! If you don’t like it get off your arse and sort something yourself ! Competitions happen because of the few who give their time to make it happen. If you don’t like it then take up something else ! 

PRL is being run as a business not just a club shoot. I would say it’s rather different. 

[TC]

2 minutes ago, Sapper811 said:

I don’t shoot PRL as my time is taken up with CSR every month at Diggle. However I am really quite shocked at this thread. I and a few select others organise, manage and run all CSR comps at Diggle. Near 30 individual competitions per year. And yes it is hard work but we love it. As far as I see it ONE man has had the time, energy and drive to get PRL started in the UK and what do you lot do ??? Discuss what’s wrong with it and how it can be changed !!FFS !! If you don’t like it get off your arse and sort something yourself ! Competitions happen because of the few who give their time to make it happen. If you don’t like it then take up something else ! 

Definitely some truths there .....

As I typed my reply I was  thinking “I could help with this”.

There needs to be care to ensure that any activity is complementary to PRL not competitive.  There are already discussions of “competitive series” etc 

In fairness I think the thread was started to gather useful input and all of the commentary so far has been on ELR which was primarily added to give “value” to travelling shooters.  As PRL gains momentum I think the ELR day becomes less relevant.

 

 

[tikkat3rob]

My input having shot at roundhouse for 3 years is that,

Some in this thread should take a step back and appreciate the effort that the PRL organizers have put in.

The pricing is fine there is significant outlay for a shoot day [barricades/firing points,steels, frames, sentries to name a small amount oh and the labour time to do all of it 

The Prl day is probably the best days shooting you can have in the uk 

The two day format is great and has long been a staple of the roundhouse venue and should not change ,it could do with some minor refinement I would quote john mh's point above in regards to reworking the ranges on the ELR day even then i think its thoroughly enjoyable 

Keep the timings for stages on the elr day it keeps the pressure element on 

 

 

 

[lapua]

57 minutes ago, Sapper811 said:

I don’t shoot PRL as my time is taken up with CSR every month at Diggle. However I am really quite shocked at this thread. I and a few select others organise, manage and run all CSR comps at Diggle. Near 30 individual competitions per year. And yes it is hard work but we love it. As far as I see it ONE man has had the time, energy and drive to get PRL started in the UK and what do you lot do ??? Discuss what’s wrong with it and how it can be changed !!FFS !! If you don’t like it get off your arse and sort something yourself ! Competitions happen because of the few who give their time to make it happen. If you don’t like it then take up something else ! 

The thread was started to be constructive, nothing else.

[lapua]

57 minutes ago, Scotch_egg said:

PRL is being run as a business not just a club shoot. I would say it’s rather different. 

Thats not entirely true Dave. It would be more accurate to say PRL shoots are hosted for profit by businesses, PRL itself is not being run for profit. Tiff makes money at Roundhouse events only, and its a very poor hourly rate.

[One on top of two]

When we’re talking expensive, what sort of money are we talking about here ? 

How much for a comp ? Practice? Or the day ? 

What are the costs . 

 

 

[DaveT]

Bottom line here is that Tiff is an example to us all in that he works his rocks off ....I cannot believe his energy and enthusiasm!

Without his initiative we would all still be bored to death punching paper at Bisley etc.

I see this thread as a means to help further improve things and that can come from both positive and negative comments as long as they are not just rants.

Tiff is beyond criticism but I am sure he will take all views on board.

 

[Ronin]

It’s interesting to see the thread develop, which as far as I understand was posted to provoke discussion amongst like minded individuals 

My views;

 

ELR - yes, it interests me, but ELR (extreme long range) should be that.

Start at 1200 and then 1500, 2000 and beyond if the range is that size and capable of the distance 

I can think of two ranges in the UK one could run this event without using military field firing and becoming involved with Landmark (which at the moment is a non starter)

There is nothing “ELR” about shooting sub 1000 yds unless a 22 RF element was introduced where 300 may be considered “extreme”

I agree the Precision Rifle Shooting competitions and ELR should be separate entities

 

Competitions and venues

Steel plate (gong) shooting is nothing new in the UK

Ive shot steel plate comps at Diggle, WMS, Quarrys in Wiltshire (I think it was Wiltshire - I’m still trying to remove the memories of flash-bangs being thrown into a bonfire by an incredibly stupid person ,) and several get together shoots where mates bring their own steel targets and get on with it - it’s nothing new and has been around for at least fifteen years or longer

The competition forms from early days, mirrored the US steel plate events run by George Gardner and Snipers Hide Cup run by Frank Gali all shot from different positions, timed and from some barricades 

Roundhouse Firearms training is one of many venues you can go and pay to shoot or train - Orion, Eskdalemuir, Diggle, Bisley and WMS being  others.

These venues offer a service for which one pays a range fee what they charge is up to them

 

I'm happy to pay for range time and training - providing the training provider has provenance (such as military experience as an instructor or such like) not people who have their own range but no formal training qualifications

My understanding is Precision Rifle Shooting competition which has now become “PRL” was started after discussion between  several people and businesses who’s purpose was to stage a series of Precision Rifle Shooting competitions in the UK of similar format to the many US / Scandinavian rifle shooting competitions

I was very disappointed when events led to a fall out but now there are more competitions available provided by Precision Rifle League and Send It Series - it can only be good for us, the shooters / competitors 

 Electronic markers - they may be an expense. But are worth the investment especially for competitors using 6mm which has little signature beyond 600 mtrs on steel 

Perhaps the PRL could purchase one set for targets that “travels” to each venue and is set up at that venue then moved to the next - or the ranges PRL is being shot on provide their own as a condition of using it for this type of Comp?

 

Setting up shoots / comps - it’s a major headache and you won’t please everyone - that’s just how it is

Diggle is perhaps the cheapest place to shoot in the UK and from experience it’s always the same guys turning up early to set out the targets at certain events - on other ranges there are staff who do this, or the targets are already out and set up days before in prep for the Comp, which should be done so range briefings and stages are known and may be printed out for the competitor

Costs - shooting isn’t cheap.

Competitions are not cheap to enter or run, but there has to be a limit to what people are expected to pay, most PRL venues already have a secondary income (they are a range in use all year and provide that service to paying customers) they will already own targetry and have established “props” firing points and range staff who may be called upon to work (probably at minimum wage) for competitions 

Having a suggested 50 plus entrants at 180 per entry brings in revenue of 9k per Comp 

Perhaps a re think of entry fees ,,,

Ive said before but one can enter a national F class event at Diggle for less than 50 and Blair Athol for less than 80 for two days shooting as a non member of the club, how can such high fees be maintained for PRL events without people becoming disolutioned .

As a final thought it would be good to see things move forward and events become bigger and more varied in terms of where they’re staged - hopefully more venues with differing topography - I’m looking forwards to next years season 

 

[lapua]

Ok, another from me..

UKD stages!

do we really need them? It tests another skillset but there are alway people who have a cheeky ping with their “binoculars”.

does PRS do UKD stages?

[Brushy]

I personally like the UKD but it needs to be proper UKD, mil it to range the target and engage it. 

It’s difficult to keep it unknown when most people have shot the venues before and have an idea of the range, mind. Personal opinion - There should be a pair of standard binocs / spotter for use and no other personal kit (except the rifle) to prevent a cheeky ping; although this should be self policed. 

The AI stage at roundhouse was a good example of how this could be done; separate holding area for a blind stage and another for people to wait after. This could be modified so the competitors to determine range and dial / hold accordingly once they’ve found the target.

+ 1 on how hard Tiff works.

[Ronin]

A simple check of kit before anyone left the briefing area and instruction no RF or disqualified would suffice 

 

Known height painted stick alongside target with time allocated to mil targets / work out distance then shoot targets in order specified by RO

 

[One on top of two]

13 minutes ago, Ronin said:

 

 

Known height painted stick alongside target with time allocated to mil targets / work out distance then shoot targets in order specified by RO

.... a simple yet brilliant idea  for those that find shooting UKD a bit daunting using a Ret . And of course it free ! 

 

 

[tackb]

14 hours ago, srvet said:

Whilst I have only done 2 comps this year they were both an absolute hoot! 

Thinking what would be best for the PRL as an ongoing uk venture would be to bury the hatchet regarding disagreements over the past year and host the comps on as many ranges in the country as possible. This may obviously require some degree of compromise to occur. Failing to do this will inevitably fragment what is already a minority sport to everyone’s detriment as competing organisations will spring up as in the USA. This may however inject market forces with regard to entrance fees. One way or another this will succeed or fail based on numbers of participants so breaking down barriers of cost, distance and time commitment  would be good starting points  

With regard to competition format I would echo the separation of the PRL and the ELR as they are very different and both niche. Perhaps one day comps would be more accessible and the same comp could be run on two consecutive days as many clay shoots are. 

Some other suggestion would be to incorporate some long barrel 22 LR pistol and close range 22 semi auto stages for shits and giggles. These may need guns/ammo to be provided but sponsors may be prepared to help 

 

The only possible way I will bury the hatchet with Gardner’s is if they refund the money they have stolen from me 

the op of this thread was refunded as we’re others but there is a number who for reasons known only to Gardner’s will not be refunded , there is a lot of support for a boycott of Gardner’s over this yet it is such a simple fix by Gardner’s so if detriment to the sport of shooting is to be layed at anyone’s door it is Gardner’s.

they and they alone can fix this. 

[Cheetor]

Not quite sure what you guys are trying to achieve here, Lapua, stirring the mud with a spoon I suspect, again?

The time, effort and cost by Tiff to start this series has been massive. There were always going to be problems to start with, the biggest being the whingers and whiners who would not be happy regardless of what was provided.

Tiff has provided events that have been attended by many shooters and thay have returned time and time again, so something must be right. This has also been done by Sapper811 at Diggle and shows that it can be done if you are willing to put the effort in.

If you feel so strongly about how something should be run and what format it should take then why have you not got up off your arses and done something?

If you don't like the idea, then don't show up, do your own thing and see how many turn up. 

[tackb]

4 minutes ago, Cheetor said:

Not quite sure what you guys are trying to achieve here, Lapua, stirring the mud with a spoon I suspect, again?

The time, effort and cost by Tiff to start this series has been massive. There were always going to be problems to start with, the biggest being the whingers and whiners who would not be happy regardless of what was provided.

Tiff has provided events that have been attended by many shooters and thay have returned time and time again, so something must be right. This has also been done by Sapper811 at Diggle and shows that it can be done if you are willing to put the effort in.

If you feel so strongly about how something should be run and what format it should take then why have you not got up off your arses and done something?

If you don't like the idea, then don't show up, do your own thing and see how many turn up. 

I was happy to turn up and did to a number of prl events , I lost money at the Gardner’s event because I paid up front then after it was cancelled at there venue they refused to refund me although they did refund others 

bad form and detrimental to shooting in general , very short sighted !

[lapua]

22 minutes ago, Cheetor said:

Not quite sure what you guys are trying to achieve here, Lapua, stirring the mud with a spoon I suspect, again?

The time, effort and cost by Tiff to start this series has been massive. There were always going to be problems to start with, the biggest being the whingers and whiners who would not be happy regardless of what was provided.

Tiff has provided events that have been attended by many shooters and thay have returned time and time again, so something must be right. This has also been done by Sapper811 at Diggle and shows that it can be done if you are willing to put the effort in.

If you feel so strongly about how something should be run and what format it should take then why have you not got up off your arses and done something?

If you don't like the idea, then don't show up, do your own thing and see how many turn up. 

Absolutely not stirring anything Alan, as others have grasped, thread was started to promote a sensible discussion about what could be changed or improved based on participants feedback. I haven't posted anything on here that i haven’t or wouldn't say to Tiff himself. Ive supported Tiff since day 1 of RRC and attended every one of his shoots that i have been able to. 

If i was stirring i would have suggested a  ban of Hawaiian shirts (and wearers of them), but I didn’t!!😘