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John MH

PRL 2019 - What Calibre, Action/Chassis and Optic

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22 minutes ago, Rusty Gate said:

Great article. I joined the PRL website but can't interact with it & I"m not on facecrap. I wanted to find out what you guy's & new members now are starting off with, rifle, scope's etc. Is everyone on custom set ups or are there stock set up's that are up to it? 

I know one of the Irish lads runs a standard T3 CTR 6.5CM 24" with a Hausken Mod and Sako TRG 136gr factory ammo. Only upgrade was a custom stock. Only had the rifle for a week prior to the  Norma Orion shoot but did ok. I was with him when he zeroed the rifle and it seemed to group very well. Not sure if he tried any other ammo. 

edi

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I think people aren’t replying through fear of loosing the advantage. 

 

I have had the cartridge debate with Ronin and MJR several times trying to find the ideal trade off between recoil and wind cheating. 

I shot a 6.5X47 Lapua Accuracy International AT with a Schmidt PM11 3-20X50 I was hand loading a 130gr Hornady 130gr ELD-M Over 37.5gr N150 for 2820fps and an SD of 6.2. I didn’t have time to develop the load and used the same one I had used for a previous rifle. Another competitor shot an Accuracy International AW in 6.5 creedmoor with a Schmidt scope he used factory Hornady 140gr ELD-M at 2680fps. 

We both scored 93. 

Its more about riflemanship than ballistics. One of the Irish lads was using a .308 and the calibre wasn’t what let him down. 

6mm cartridge’s struggled to provide a visual feedback when looking for splash on misses. I used mine to adjust point of aim.

What is clear though is knowing whatever cartridge you shoot like the back down your hand will give you the advantage.

The only person I’m out there competing against is myself right now. Because when you make a stupid mistake like short stroking and having a fail to fire causing the mandatory 30 second wait until you can cycle the bolt again which causes a loss of vital points there is only one person to blame. Especially on a 140 second stage. 

To respond to Ronin, long action isn’t seconds it’s the risk of poor fundamentals and a short stroke. 

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Long actions are not slow, I can rack that bolt and not notice the difference between an SA. However, seconds lost on a mag change, plus the extra chance of a feeding issue (especially with tweaked mag lips) does cost points. As the leaderboard shows it is a tight comp.

However, im with Scotch, I want to shoot to the best of my ability and if that means placing highly that’s great but it’s not my objective. We all like kit but kit doesn’t make the shooter. 

 

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Only shot the one at Tiffs not long back.

A very steep learning curve. The Creedmoor is undoubtedly the cartridge, but you need a 140 grain bullet past 1000.

I used my AX.

Starting next season, I will be using an AXMC in creedmoor, and also .300 Norma.

The weight is an advantage.

The rifle is far more stable on bags, recoil is reduced, and spotting your own shots becomes viable.

A good sling takes care of moving it about.

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52 minutes ago, baldie said:

A good sling takes care of moving it about.

Dave, wait until you try hoiking it over your shoulder with your ARCA bipod.

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Well now there are several types of Precision Rifle Shooting competition in the UK let’s hope the sport grows to become bigger and better

Diggle ranges are running their own competition series as are Gardner’s at Eskdalemuir and with next years Precision Rifle League promising to be “bigger and better” with more venues there’s a plethora of competitions to enter or attend just to practice   

 

On that note, I hope the costs to enter don't get prohibitive.

 

Talking to a fellow entrant of the last of the PRL events they said that it was over nearly 300 quid to enter the Comp and practice Friday with ammunition cost at 150 and accommodation another 150 for two nights in local place that becomes a very expensive weekends shooting when compared to even F class who’s entry fee at Bisley for two days is only 150 and a practice half day being 20 (bearing in mind that’s including paying for two human markers per target)

 

Diggle Comp entry fees stand at no more than 50 per Comp for non members (less for members) and the new set of comps at Eskdalemuir are 60 which appears good value to me

No one shooting competitively can argue it’s a cheap sport but it becomes prohibitive when entry fees are so high for unknown reasons, after all the targetry is already on site.....

 

Moving back to the original thread (sorry) I don’t see the argument against long action as the bolt retraction is exactly the same as a short action. Closing the bolt requires the longer throw (3/4” longer)

Yep, mags are larger but again 3/4” longer, so not by a huge amount.

I think the guys Precision Rifle Shooting in the US have advantage of different climate and perhaps drier conditions where fall of shot / splash can be seen with the 6mm bullets - you don’t see many 6mm used in Scandinavian events  from reading several reports it’s predominantly 6.5/7mm that is used 

Given the changeable conditions in the UK I believe 6.5 / 7mm is the better option 

 

  

 

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The CZ comps are similar ( Tiff and others have been to our comps). The kit will be fairly similar. Currently I am running an AI AXMC in 338 Lapua with break and 20” barrel, S&B 5-45x56 pm2 with LRR reticle and AI bipod. Fits into a Peli 1700 case for easy transportation.

E3A4BA83-8EC6-44E4-A6F4-A9F2CA096899.thumb.jpeg.b55b49e3e02e90048528c6d0a9112783.jpeg

The AXMC has weight but with a 20” barrel is very well balanced. Balance is more important than weight to me, as already pointed out weight has many advantages - but balance has more. This is a big advantage for unsupported shots. In terms of Long range(ish) performance I have not noticed any disadvantage in terms of hits at 800m directly compared to my mates 27” AXMC.

Caliber, on the face of it 6.5 Creed or 6.5x47 Lapua would seem to be the thinking mans best choices, however there are a couple of caveats  for me - some of the the stuff I shoot requires service calibers only and as everything is shot without sighters  you can sometimes see a bigger hole on target and not a smaller one. 

In the end the mix between caliber and barrel length comes down to wind drift which for the most part is due to bullet bc and drop which is due to bullet speed. An extreme example with 338 of something like a 300fps 790 ms vs 890 ms ( 850 ms is about Lapua factory) shows about 24 cm extra wind drift at 80Om in a 4ms wind at 90 degrees and an extra 1.3m of drop. 

A mate also has a different idea and has ordered a JP rifle in 224 Valkyrie. It looks interesting. It would be section 5 for the U.K. but it will be interesting to see if it can hold its own with bolt guns.

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I was amazed at how big the difference was even between 123gn and 140gn 6.5’s. Hitting the same targets at 7-800m the 140’s hammer while the 123’s ping. 139/140 gn bullets are where its at. And 115’s in 6mm if you must

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Borden alpine, bartelin 6.5 cm 22”, AIAX chassis,RRS arca grip, mae mod, 3-20x50. Shooting 140 eld-m

F3F64EED-F66D-4AC3-B79B-4E5C9D00D5E8.jpeg

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Hey guys, good discussion going on. Here is my little 2pence worth of what i have experienced. 

The 6.5s is where its at, especially when we go to some where like orion where we have a few stages at least 1000yards.

i have been using the 6.5 creed to very good success, i am tempted to push a bit more powder and go for a 260 or 260 ai something like that but after reading a few of those posts i do totally agree your misses are normally down to you. your stability and your shakes. not your load. 

I do however disagree that weight is the way forward. i have been running my carbon barrels on a tikka action in an XLR carbon stock all season so ide safely say its one of the lightest rigs and that didn't give me any issues what so ever. 

lots of thoughts and ideas on what to do to improve for next year so keep the good discussion going guys. 

Josh - 

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Josh - a lighter rifle has not seemed to have held you back? 

Concur with you comment re. a heavy rifle which links to my observation about add on kit, you are seeing heavy rifles to which you add, dependant on the stage you are shooting, a specialised front bag, then possibly propping up the rear of the stock with a tripod, basically removing as much shooter input/influence as possible - F-class with a barricade if you like?

To me, and as per Mr Egg's comment, it would be about developing personal skills not technology. Caveat - we all have our own aims, so long as its within the rules do what you want to get out of it your goals.

don't think the long action is an issue, if you are loosing out for the few msec difference in cycling the bolt then, well, we are getting a bit good! 😎

T

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I shot a 6x47 Lapua with 105 hybrids doing 2940fps for 3 of the PRL's.
I was okay until it got over 750m then sometimes splashes and hits on steel were hard to see.
I'm going to try a heavier Bullet, if that does not help I'll go 6.5 for next year.
If we used Flashers like in the states it would not be a problem.
The yanks found that out, that's why a lot of the top shooters moved over to 6 Dasher and 6 Creedmoor when the flashers started being used at distance.
Virtually everybody used a bag or two of some sort, it just made sense.

 

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Magnetospeed Flashers cost $150 each, that’s considerable investment required by venue owners.

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1 hour ago, John MH said:

Magnetospeed Flashers cost $150 each, that’s considerable investment required by venue owners.

 

For Nine grand a Comp (overall income based on 50 entrants at circa 180 entry fee ) I’m sure the range owners can afford to buy a few ,,,,,

 

😂

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