Benchrest

[Nick 53]

Hi all, 

Reloading for my 6br when I full length re size the cases the expanded ball is reluctant to come out of the Lapua brass and it rips the neck away from case of the brass. The cases are lubed .

Is there a solution.

Thanks Nick

[lapua]

Carbide expander or lube the inside of the neck?

[gruntus]

Hi Nick,

Have you measured the expander is the correct size?

Cheers

G

[Nick 53]

Not quite sure what size the expander ball should be .I assume if it came with the die it would be the right size.

Any pointers on how to check and the size?

Thanks Nick

[No i deer]

Have you remembered to lube inside the necks...?

Expander ball will be 2 or 3 thousanths smaller than the bullets diameter 

Unscrew the spindle and measure the expander ball.

Before you unscrew the spindle measure how much the decapping pin pertrudes below the die bottom so you put it back the same 👍 

[Bob D]

Hi Nick what make kit are you using

Bob

[That bald headed Geordie]

Get rid of the expander ball on your sizing die.   They are the worst thing you can use.  On the down stroke to full length resize the case,  the case neck is squeezed too much and on the upstroke the expander ball really rips the case neck and more importantly the case  is not supported during the extraction process and will give you  horrendous runout and overwork the brass in the neck area.

After you have full length resized and deprimed with the expander ball removed you can either use a seperate neck expander die which will give you the necessary case support and to bring the neck up to give you minimum neck retention on the bullet.    Or if you want more neck retention you can use a die that uses bushings and do the job in one go as I do.   My custom 6BRA die resizes the brass and I select a bushing to give me about 2 thou bullet retention.

Redding has a full length die in 6BR (No 77201 see photo) and you can remove the neck expander ball and use just a primer decapper plus the die utilises a bushing to resize the neck to your desired tension   I used this die in my previous 6BR heavy gun.

I have attached a photo and you can see that you can remove the traditional neck expander ball and replace it by a slimmer type that just holds the decapping pin and doesn't touch the inside neck.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by That bald headed Geordie
New paragraph and photo added

[Nick 53]

Hi,

Thanks for the information.

I have a neck die with a bushing in the die , it should give me 3 thou tension around the neck.

When I come to use the neck bushing die do I need to lube inside the neck?

Thanks Nick

[That bald headed Geordie]

14 minutes ago, Nick 53 said:

Hi,

Thanks for the information.

I have a neck die with a bushing in the die , it should give me 3 thou tension around the neck.

When I come to use the neck bushing die do I need to lube inside the neck?

Thanks Nick

Are you using 2 separate dies?   One to deprime and full length with the neck expander and another to neck size only?

If you are,  then for the neck size bushing die you do not need to lube the inside of the neck,  but just a little sizing die wax on the outside of the neck.   The only time I use lube inside the case neck is when I seat bullets and use graphite powder.

However,  if your using 2 dies as above then for the die with the neck expander you will obviously lube the outside of the case.   As for lubing the inside that is something I have never done as I wouldn't use the expander in the first place.    A long time ago I did have a full length die with an expander that couldn't be removed so I ground the expander ball down so it wouldn't touch the neck.    But I used a Lyman type M neck expander die to enable the case to be supported and did use the graphite powder to make it easier to expand the neck as a separate operation.

 

 

 

[sam39]

I don’t lube in side of neck when using neck bushing die. Just out side of neck Take the bushing out now and then, clean and put a bit of oil on it. Buggers for getting stuck in if left in untouched. this Die de primes, no expander and bumps the shoulder back. I clean well after every use. Bushing is .265 this gives me 1.5 to 2 thou neck tension

[Nick 53]

1 hour ago, That bald headed Geordie said:

Are you using 2 separate dies?   One to deprime and full length with the neck expander and another to neck size only?

If you are,  then for the neck size bushing die you do not need to lube the inside of the neck,  but just a little sizing die wax on the outside of the neck.   The only time I use lube inside the case neck is when I seat bullets and use graphite powder.

However,  if your using 2 dies as above then for the die with the neck expander you will obviously lube the outside of the case.   As for lubing the inside that is something I have never done as I wouldn't use the expander in the first place.    A long time ago I did have a full length die with an expander that couldn't be removed so I ground the expander ball down so it wouldn't touch the neck.    But I used a Lyman type M neck expander die to enable the case to be supported and did use the graphite powder to make it easier to expand the neck as a separate operation.

 

 

 

Hi yes was using 2 dies .But the New neck bushing die has a de primer . So was going to just use this die, still lube the neck as before.if I see you at diggle sometime will show you the dies.

Thanks Nick

[onehole]

2 hours ago, Nick 53 said:

Hi,

Thanks for the information.

I have a neck die with a bushing in the die , it should give me 3 thou tension around the neck.

When I come to use the neck bushing die do I need to lube inside the neck?

Thanks Nick

Hi,,,,,,Looks like you have a die and bush to size your neck to 3 thou ,,,,2 thou maybe better?,,,get another bush 1 thou larger?. To full length size just get a redding body die as they are quite cheap really to full length size and bump shoulders back to a desired amount. Competition shell holder set will make this easier. Only time you will need lube is on the outside of case during partial FL size and bump procedure. All this requires is a two die set up and regime but can of course be done in one operation with a redding FL sizing and neck bushing die along with a comp set of shell holders......The same can be acheived by adjusting just the FL size and neck bushing die in the press using the press to cam over centre and locking off the die in the best position to acheive necessary bump back,,,,,,,,,,i dont like this and rather use comp shell holders to arrive at correct bump and you can acheive this without having to cam over centre as any workable stop on the downstroke of the press handle will be sufficeint. I have never ever needed to lube the inside of necks,,,,,,,,,,,O

[That bald headed Geordie]

38 minutes ago, Nick 53 said:

Hi yes was using 2 dies .But the New neck bushing die has a de primer . So was going to just use this die, still lube the neck as before.if I see you at diggle sometime will show you the dies.

Thanks Nick

Ok Nick,  the only problem you could have in using the neck sizing die only after multiply firings  is that your not full length resizing the case and might find your  cases will eventually not fit into the chamber until full length resized.    Also the case headspace dimension might be excessive and the case will be too tight to close your bolt. 

This is were the Redding 6BR small base type S full length resizing die fits the bill it does everything in one pass.    I have long since stopped using just a neck sizing die as at somepoint you will have to use the full length die,  or a shoulder bump die along with your neck size die.

Hope that info helps.

 

[onehole]

37 minutes ago, That bald headed Geordie said:

Ok Nick,  the only problem you could have in using the neck sizing die only after multiply firings  is that your not full length resizing the case and might find your  cases will eventually not fit into the chamber until full length resized.    Also the case headspace dimension might be excessive and the case will be too tight to close your bolt.

This is were the Redding 6BR small base type S full length resizing die fits the bill it does everything in one pass.    I have long since stopped using just a neck sizing die as at somepoint you will have to use the full length die,  or a shoulder bump die along with your neck size die.

Hope that info helps.

 

Small base  Redding resizing body die dimenions are quite tight and perhaps excessive ?,,,,,ideal for very tight chambered barrells but not sure for standard chamber dimensions,,,,,,,please check,,,O

[Chanonry]

7 hours ago, onehole said:

Small base  Redding resizing body die dimenions are quite tight and perhaps excessive ?,,,,,ideal for very tight chambered barrells but not sure for standard chamber dimensions,,,,,,,please check,,,O

They work fine for me

[No i deer]

Have I missed something as Nick was ripping the necks off the cases,what was the cause...?

There is so many different types of dies nowadays, most still say FL size,some with bushing and some use a custom expander mandrel after they have been bushed to a size so to be expanded after which seems to me the best solution,hopefully very soon I will receive my first custom expander mandrel and try this technique, reason being I've been getting the odd case that's had none or  very little neck tension and all the brass was neck turned at the same time and the same bushing was used 🤔

[Catch-22]

2 hours ago, No i deer said:

I will receive my first custom expander mandrel and try this technique, reason being I've been getting the odd case that's had none or  very little neck tension and all the brass was neck turned at the same time and the same bushing was used 

Do you anneal? It could be the necks are now beginning to be work hardened and lack the spingyness needed for sizing the neck properly.

[Bob57]

9 hours ago, onehole said:

Small base  Redding resizing body die dimenions are quite tight and perhaps excessive ?,,,,,ideal for very tight chambered barrells but not sure for standard chamber dimensions,,,,,,,please check,,,O

I found that out recently when body sizing my 223 cases to bump the shoulders back, every case tight as hell, kept putting on more lube to the point I thought I'd be denting the brass until a case got stuck in the die !! Never had a case stuck in a die in about 40years of reloading so I'll never use a body die again.

 

Nick, the smoothest FLS die i've used to date is a hornady with the elliptical expander, in and out of the necks no drama , as with all fls dies, lube wax on body, dunk about every 4th neck in imperial dry neck lube. Set your fls die up in press to just be able to close bolt on a tight chambering case, get your load development done, and stay with that way of resizing your cases, and all will be the same from there on, don't go chopping from neck only to fls. clean the inside of die after every use, should be simples😃

[No i deer]

33 minutes ago, Catch-22 said:

Do you anneal? It could be the necks are now beginning to be work hardened and lack the spingyness needed for sizing the neck properly.

The brass gets annealed on a AMP annealer,sometimes every firing sometimes every 2 or 3, this time they had just been annealed and I came across 2 out of 120 I've loaded for a competition with no neck tension,there's about another 80 I've not yet loaded so maybe more yet.

[dully1963]

If it's ripping the necks of then I would think your dies are not setup correctly as no die would be that excessive if it's been lubed  just my thoughts ,strip it all down give it a good clean then go n you tube and set it all up again.

also what make of dies are they

[Nick 53]

Hi all.

My full length resize die is a Hornady.my neck tension die is a Forster. I can only assume money was the issue when I have different make of dies.my brass has been fired twice.Not annealed.i only have a wax type lube.i think I've got my wires crossed in the case preparation.

Thanks for the input.

Much appreciated

Nick