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Bolt lube


rhhudson

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30 minutes ago, MrCetirizine said:

Did you somehow manage to apply shearing force with a hammer? No? That'll explain it then.

 Ho hum.

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7 hours ago, MrCetirizine said:

Show me some pictures then.

We have a forum member - jonathan.308 - who sent me some pics of his galled BAT S action caused by the Goof House failing to use bolt grease.  I think Jonathan may be working on the oil rig at the moment but I'm sure he has the pics and maybe will see this post.

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9 hours ago, rhhudson said:

I like how my post about which type of lube has turned into a fight about to lube or not to lube 🤣 .

 

Please anyone that dosent don't bother commenting. I'm looking for reccomendations on type, not a lecture why I shouldn't. 

 

Thanks 

Don’t worry, I too am loosing the will to live 😔

Ill sort some photos of where to put a bit of ‘grease’ and fwd along with a couple of ‘grease’ recommendations if you pm me your email.

Quite frankly the though that two metals rubbing together are ‘better off’ not lubed is incredible - in the literal meaning of the word. As is not putting grease into bearings , as alluded to. 

Caveat: but it is, currently, a free world so do whatever you are happy with , because that’s all that matters.

Terry

 

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1 hour ago, The Gun Pimp said:

We have a forum member - jonathan.308 - who sent me some pics of his galled BAT S action caused by the Goof House failing to use bolt grease.  I think Jonathan may be working on the oil rig at the moment but I'm sure he has the pics and maybe will see this post.

OK, I look forward to seeing them. Does he have details of the law suit, insurance claim or internal investigation carried out by the proof house too? It would be nice to see how they dealt with it.

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7 minutes ago, MrCetirizine said:

OK, I look forward to seeing them. Does he have details of the law suit, insurance claim or internal investigation carried out by the proof house too? It would be nice to see how they dealt with it.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/lugs-galling-on-bat-mb-bolt.3794075/

https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/bolt-lugs-galling-effects-on-accuracy.6684435/

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35 minutes ago, terryh said:

Don’t worry, I too am loosing the will to live 😔

Ill sort some photos of where to put a bit of ‘grease’ and fwd along with a couple of ‘grease’ recommendations if you pm me your email.

Quite frankly the though that two metals rubbing together are ‘better off’ not lubed is incredible - in the literal meaning of the word. As is not putting grease into bearings , as alluded to. 

Caveat: but it is, currently, a free world so do whatever you are happy with , because that’s all that matters.

Terry

 

34 minutes ago, terryh said:

Don’t worry, I too am loosing the will to live 😔

Ill sort some photos of where to put a bit of ‘grease’ and fwd along with a couple of ‘grease’ recommendations if you pm me your email.

Quite frankly the though that two metals rubbing together are ‘better off’ not lubed is incredible - in the literal meaning of the word. As is not putting grease into bearings , as alluded to. 

Caveat: but it is, currently, a free world so do whatever you are happy with , because that’s all that matters.

Terry

 

I've already recommended the man the BEST bolt lubricator, ZX1 the ultimate friction eliminator,maybe you all think I'm joking but ZX1 is the nuts, buy the C76 micro lube pin oiler, 35mm bottle, a tiny little bit smeared on the lugs and you've got the best friction and wear eliminator there is, but if you don't believe me,just keep using your grease,I don't care.

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I graduated in 1997 then tried to get post grad work to move towards my PhD but found that theoretical physics was tricky to get into, so I went to work briefly in engineering design, specifically tool heads for deep sea drilling. However, I found that unfulfilling and took some time off before accidentally getting into the print industry, where I've been ever since.

I understand what galling is, I simply have never seen it be an issue on bolt lugs that have so little friction and pressure on them that if you remove the firing pin, the bolt will close purely from gravity on the bolt handle.

Once fired, the pressure that was present during firing, dissipates completely, leaving the lugs under no pressure again. There will be some extra adhesion caused by the brief pressure impact pressing the faces of the lugs against their counterparts in the barrel/barrel extension. However that will be alleviated with a very slight rotation of the bolt, especially in bolt designs with strong primary extraction.

Also, adding lubricant will in fact increase this adhesion in the same way the sucker pads on GPS/Dashcam type devices, stick better to your windscreen if you wet them.

I have seen scored lugs caused by grit, which is why I keep mine dry. I have also seen both scoring and galling on the cocking cam/cocking piece, which is why I do lube that.

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56 minutes ago, MJR said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

Take note of the remarks regarding lubrication.

When did you complete your Physics degree again?

why would anyone think a physics degree was implying any competence in engineering? Why would anyone be arrogant enough to mention it? I've got an 'O level' in cookery but I don't go on about it.

Stainless steel is well known for galling, stainless steel threads are often a major problem. High pressure bearing surfaces need appropriate lubrication, closure of a bolt lug against its mate is just such an interface.

Engineers roole ko!

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1 minute ago, MrCetirizine said:

I graduated in 1997 then tried to get post grad work to move towards my PhD but found that theoretical physics was tricky to get into, so I went to work briefly into engineering design, specifically tool heads for deep sea drilling. However, I found that unfulfilling and took some time off before accidentally getting into the print industry, where I've been ever since.

I understand what galling is, I simply have never seen it be an issue on bolt lugs that have so little friction and pressure on them that if you remove the firing pin, the bolt will close purely from gravity on the bolt handle.

Once fired, the pressure that was present during firing, dissipates completely, leaving the lugs under no pressure again. There will be some extra adhesion caused by the brief pressure impact pressing the faces of the lugs against their counterparts in the barrel/barrel extension. However that will be alleviated with a very slight rotation of the bolt, especially in bolt designs with strong primary extraction.

Also, adding lubricant will in fact increase this adhesion in the same way the sucker pads on GPS/Dashcam type devices, stick better to your windscreen if you wet them.

Utter bullshine, you've just blown your cover.  Give it up now,  you ain't the only one with a degree ol' pal.

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27 minutes ago, MrCetirizine said:

Once fired, the pressure that was present during firing, dissipates completely, leaving the lugs under no pressure again. There will be some extra adhesion caused by the brief pressure impact pressing the faces of the lugs against their counterparts in the barrel/barrel extension. However that will be alleviated with a very slight rotation of the bolt, especially in bolt designs with strong primary extraction.

Then how come the Goof House had to take a hammer to get my bolt open - to the extent that they broke off the bolt-handle?   Not only that, they did exactly the same thing a month ago to another bolt.

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3 minutes ago, The Gun Pimp said:

Then how come the Goof House had to take a hammer to get my bolt open - to the extent that they broke off the bolt-handle?   Not only that, they did exactly the same thing a month ago to another bolt.

If they had to hammer it open, then it couldn't have been galling as that occurs during movement of metal against metal. If it seized closed after firing then I think no amount of lube or lack of lube would have made a difference.

Just a guess without seeing it but my initial hypothesis would be, incorrect heat treatment of the bolt/batch of bolts which would create a softer than required steel that deformed under firing, locking the bolt in place and causing marking on the lugs when hammered open.

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I'm not implying anything by asking about the degree? Just simply interested as I am interested in physics.

MrC, serious question. Do you understand the sequence of events when a bolt is opened? No extraction can occur until the lugs are clear of one another. The lubrication is there to create a cushion between the two parts, exactly like oil in your car engine creates a cushion between moving parts. Without it there is metal to metal contact and wear or galling takes place.

 

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Some lugs, certainly all of the ones on my rifles have primary extraction built in. This is a very slight, thread like curve to the lugs (though I understand other designs exist) which slightly retracts the bolt as the lugs turn against their locking surface and pulls the case out just enough to break the adhesion you get when the case expands into the chamber walls. It's something that's been in pretty much all bolt action and straight pull rifles since before world war one.

If you had to clear the lugs before you could start extraction then you'd have to apply a huge amount of force to pull the bolt back. A stiff bolt lift is typically stiff primary extraction caused by overpressure adhering the case into the chamber more than usual.

Here's a video from the brilliant bloke on the range, explaining it.

This of course has no direct effect that would either stop or cause galling as the lugs still rub against their counterparts but I still maintain that there isn't sufficient pressure between the two to cause galling if the surfaces are clean.

I only mentioned my degree because I was questioned about pressure measurement and effect which I learned a great deal about so I thought it was germane. It's not something I typically ever mention because in truth, it's been 20 years since I used it in anger and as with most sciences, a lot of it has changed.

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I have an old Musgrave whose lug rear surfaces look a bit like the rear discs on my car, despite moly always being applied before each session....................it recently did <1 MOA at 600yds. (6BR)

Pete

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