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I have always dealt in Mils at work so most of my scopes are Mil Mil. It’s only lately that I have been doing any dailing past 350 yards. 

I bought my first ffp Scope 9-36-56 IOR. It’s great. Shot correction is great. Good glass and turrets seem to be very trusting  

I am buying a 6mm br to get more into the longer range plinking and gong hitting along with some 300 yard target stuff. If all goes to plan then F class at Diggle route might follow...

It seems the higher powdered scopes for F class seem to be in MOA and not many in Mils. All SFP. Sightron new model SV has mills but the ret looks a little cluttered. 

I guess nobody uses ffp in f class? Really don’t want to go down the route of a scope change if ffp will do the job and it’s purley the F class application that would benefit from MOA and SFP. The F class target rings are in MOA so is this the only benefit of having MOA over Mils? 

Any input would be great  

cheers 

 

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i think ffp scopes tend to have a thicker ret which is not great when trying to be precise . if i worked in mils i would just turn up and go for it. 

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21 hours ago, One on top of two said:

Here’s a thread I started a few weeks back , may get things started off .

 

Good link. Cheers 

p.s I’m also a Bricklayer. Mills not inches. 👍

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24 minutes ago, Blacknsilver said:

Good link. Cheers 

p.s I’m also a Bricklayer. Mills not inches. 👍

Then it’s MRAD for you then mucker 😁

im really getting on well with mine , very happy I made the switch I should have done it years ago 👍

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22 hours ago, Blacknsilver said:

I have always dealt in Mils at work so most of my scopes are Mil Mil.

 

What do you use Mils for at work?  I think you may be confusing millimetres with milli-radians (one thousandth of a Radian). Mil scopes are not related to the metric system, it's an alternate angular measuring system to minutes of angle (1/60th degree). There's no particular benefit of one over the other unless you want to range from your scope - not relevant to target shooting at known distances.

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I’m not into Benchrest/ target shooting , I use MRAD for shooting steel ( of a know size ) at different distances as fast as I can . Without the use of a rangefinder. For what I like to do , a matched MRAD turret and reticule is perfect . 

Working with metric all day and every day , and knowing the size of my targets in Cm/mm makes all of my conversions and corrections very fast and easy to do in my head with the MRAD system.

like I have said before MRAD is NOT metic , however it corresponds very well to the metric system in the same way MOA corresponds very well to the imperial system.

for me it works , nuff said 👍

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Shoot whatever you feel comfortable with.

please though, have the ret match the turrets FFS!! 😀

Re. The comment ‘FFP rets get thicker’, true, but the correct design of ret then it does not matter - my scope has a floating dot which only covers about 2” at 1000 yards - sort of 1/2 a rabbits head, not sure how fine you need to go but that’s fine enough for me!

Brgds Terry

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Ok. So it may sound straight forward but often things are not. 

I get the gist of moa and mills. Moa = inch increments... (ish) Mills cm''s (ish) 

I was wondering more about any other benefits of moa and MILs. 

So in the modern day of range finders and fixed target sizes on ranges and then dailing in the correction into the scope the moa and mill both do the same job. Moa being slightly finer adjustment. SFP fine ret and FFP being bigger at range  

So in saying that.. You choose the SFP scope as its a finer ret at a bigger mag. You choose a simple duplex with dot to aid the precise aim you want and shoot at 31x mag. (For example)  You see your hit and need to adjust....? What do you do? 

So with the FFP it has a different ret with 1/2mil markings.  You see the hit and its in 1.5MRad to the left. So you dail 15 clicks. Job done? 

How is the simplest of rets be an advantage? Surly the faint 1 moa or mil lines would be an advantage so you can adjust to correct. (SFP at the correct mag)  Or are the f class guys just walking it in?  Are they using the size of the rings to measure the error in shot? 

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+1 for what "terryh" says - what ever you're comfortable with.

Can I just say though that conflating milRads with metric and moa with imperial is just wrong.  One milrad at 1000yds is 1yd or 36".  One 1/10th click is 3.6".   Where's the "cm" in that?  A range of 1000 bananas gives one banana per mil deflection.  If you know the distance and target size there's no benefit of one angular measuring system over the other.

A simple reticle gives an uncluttered view and a SFP just gives the possibility of a more precise alignment due to being finer at large magnifications.  If you need to measure an error in POI using the reticle (independent of distance) then a FFP is slightly less bothersome.  A standard target face at the standard distance gives sufficient information to adjust the scope in either measuring units with a SFP scope.

I like a FFP scope when shooting at very long distance at steel plates (no standard sized target rings) because it's easier to measure the error when off target and translate directly onto the turret.

When shooting at a F class target or McQueens then I just use the target rings to adjust for drop error so a nice fine SFP tiny dot on my Nightforce Comp is good.

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It pays to stick with EITHER moa scopes OR MRad, whichever you prefer using.  Otherwise it can just confuse you when remembering how far to dial for each scope/rifle combo.  I converted over to Mils for all of my scopes and whilst SFP has the advantage that the ret stays the same thickness at all ranges, calling shots and adjusting is way easier using FFP if as you simply observe the bullet strike, count the milrads or MOA marks (dots or hashes) from target centre and adjust the scope by that exact amount and it works like this for all magnifications.  I prefer working with Mils now as it's more intuitive for me, but others prefer to stick with MOA.  As already said, just ensure that the ret matches the adjustments.  It's a joke that companies are still producing scopes with milrad rets and moa adjustments....makes no sense at all.  FFP rets aren't necessarily thicker either...it depends on how fine they're made!  My S&B 5-25 at full mag in FFP retains a fine ret centre but the flip side is at low mag it's too fine to use in anything but excellent lighting.

For fixed distance shot comps, F-Class, Bench-rest or whatever, it doesn't matter what you use and many prefer a good SFP, calling adjustments based (as described by Pops above) on target rings.

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It is in fact correct to refer to MRAD as a metric derived unit where as MOA is not (and hence linked with the imperial system).

MOA has it's basis in degrees (1/60th of a degree) which are not an SI (metric) unit. And also conveniently work out at ~1" @100yrds. (1.047")
MRAD (mil) is derived from the SI Radian unit, and therefore is correctly referred to as metric. It is exactly 100mm at 100m.

For the OP - if you've got a system you're happy and comfortable with it's much easier to stick with that system. The TR and FTR community do generally work in MOA instead of MRAD, but as I understand it that's not prohibitive and you can compete happily with a MRAD scope.
 

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3 minutes ago, Rem Imperri said:

It is in fact correct to refer to MRAD as a metric derived unit where as MOA is not (and hence linked with the imperial system).

MOA has it's basis in degrees (1/60th of a degree) which are not an SI (metric) unit. And also conveniently work out at ~1" @100yrds. (1.047")
MRAD (mil) is derived from the SI Radian unit, and therefore is correctly referred to as metric. It is exactly 100mm at 100m.

Yes but you forgot to add that the radian (plane angle) is defined as a dimensionless derived SI unit so my point still stands.  1 Mrad at 100yds is 3.6" (3600/1000).

MOA is not "linked with the imperial system" in any derived way.  I agree it's a convenient rule of thumb ~1" @ 100 yds.  But how convenient at 100m?

Off to get a life now 😁

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Radians used to be an SI angular measurement but this was superseded many years back, leaving them as an SI derived unit.  The value is simply the angle subtended at the centre of a unitary circle by an arc equal in length to the circle's radius and has an approximate value of 57.3 degrees, one Radian equating to 360 degrees/2Pi. Whilst we were always taught to use the value of 6400 Millirads in 360 degrees, the correct mathematical number is:

 360/(57.3/1000) which is approximately  6283, a rather inconvenient number when dividing up compass marks!  NATO took 6400 as the value to use which can be conveniently quartered, and quartered again( into smaller fractions down to a value of approx 1.4 degrees or 25 Mrad) which made it easier to use. Technically then, the NATO version of MRad is a derivative of the SI derived unit and not the unit itself.  Confused yet?  You will be!

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To the OP:

One thing not yet mentioned is the difference between MRAD & MOA when dialling turrets.

MOA is a slightly smaller unit than MRAD. If you do dial wind/elevation corrections into your turrets, the MOA units will be a fraction smaller, thus permitting slightly smaller granular corrections on the very small v Bull at distance. I believe that's another reason why a lot of 'F'ers like MOA over MRAD.

 I use MRAD, and it's used by Military and ELR shooters the world over and the difference between MOA & MRAD is small, especially if you're really primarily shooting minute of man targets.

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One point not mentioned so far is the benefit of shooting with the same type of scope as fellow competitors, especially in team competitions. Another point is to follow the same convention on what turning a turret does, is it a Clock Wise correction or a Counter Clock Wise correction?

The only saving grace with scopes is that they keep their value much better than rifles and are easily got rid of if they don't meet expectations.

Regards

JCS

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2 hours ago, Catch-22 said:

To the OP:

One thing not yet mentioned is the difference between MRAD & MOA when dialling turrets.

MOA is a slightly smaller unit than MRAD. If you do dial wind/elevation corrections into your turrets, the MOA units will be a fraction smaller, thus permitting slightly smaller granular corrections on the very small v Bull at distance. I believe that's another reason why a lot of 'F'ers like MOA over MRAD.

 I use MRAD, and it's used by Military and ELR shooters the world over and the difference between MOA & MRAD is small, especially if you're really primarily shooting minute of man targets.

Whilst that's true, many shooters don't bother using windage adjustments once close enough instead holding off from shot to shot.  On some ranges that I shoot at, even in light breezes, the effect of even a cloud coming over has far more effect on POI at distance than the smaller click value of a 1/4 or 1/8 moa adjustment, so I have no choice but to try and read the conditions and hold off using the milhash marks as a reference for each shot.  That and watching what the flags are doing.  I will sometimes use the turrets but only where wind drops or picks up and stays reasonably uniform after that. I think it's true also that even small variations in cheek weld and trigger technique can have an equal effect to a clickstop at distance....ie there's  a lot to concentrate on!  Still conditions granted, finer adjustment is of course a potential benefit .

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I like MOA for steel shooting.The spotter says "12 inches left" and , knowing the distance, the correction is almost instantaneous. The range reduced by two decimal places divided into the error = MOA correction.

775 yards with an 18" error:

18 / 7.75 is approximately 2.3 MOA. Either dial or hold off. Not mathematically precise but very fast and accurate enough to get a quick second shot on target before the wind messes with you.

Just a hillbilly method....~Andrew

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What we now need is a matched turret and reticle system in cubits per furlong and we will all be sorted😫

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On 4/12/2019 at 8:25 AM, srvet said:

What we now need is a matched turret and reticle system in cubits per furlong and we will all be sorted😫

I vividly remember been asked to work out the speed of light in the FFF system of units at Uni.  ( Furlongs ferkins fortnights)

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4 minutes ago, martin_b said:

I vividly remember been asked to work out the speed of light in the FFF system of units at Uni.  ( Furlongs ferkins fortnights)

Was the answer 47?

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1 minute ago, srvet said:

Was the answer 47?

No, its 1.8026×1012 furlongs per fortnight ,  ( thanks Wiki) 🙂

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1 hour ago, martin_b said:

No, its 1.8026×1012 furlongs per fortnight ,  ( thanks Wiki) 🙂

now there's a man with too much time on his hands 😁

I'd love to see the turrets..

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Not irrelevant but @ (each click) adjusts 1000y an moa scope adjust the bullet impact 2.5 " so a mil scope is 100mm or 4" right ?? I use sfp for all .

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