MichalS Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 I'm wondering what is the best possible repeatable accuracy for. 308Win? My factory ammo gives me ~0.35MOA 5 shot groups @100m, my first hand loads are similar. Should I strive for .2's or .1's? Is it even possible? What is a respectable accuracy dor FTR rifle? TIA, Michał Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furrybean Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 If you can hold 0.5moa at distance you’re onto a winner but for load development at 100y and no wind and comfortable etc I’d want 0.25 at least and repeatable before using it in a comp also confirm your load at distance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 7 hours ago, MichalS said: I'm wondering what is the best possible repeatable accuracy for. 308Win? My factory ammo gives me ~0.35MOA 5 shot groups @100m, my first hand loads are similar. Should I strive for .2's or .1's? Is it even possible? What is a respectable accuracy dor FTR rifle? TIA, Michał What factory ammo is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangman Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 7 hours ago, The Gun Pimp said: What factory ammo is that? I'm also interested... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Your find any competitive FTR 308 should produce a single ragged hole at 100yards with a well produced home load 5 shot group after two sighters what maters is what velocity to wait of bullet to be competing at a thousand yards plus constant velocity I only use the 100 yards as a starting point. see Six Point Five Guys ten shot ladder testing on you tube for load development I've been running proven loads in different callibers and found I've arrived at the same powder wait. Also I've used this method on a new rifle and I'm very pleased with the results. Also a new powder bullet in my stalking 308 again looking promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanonry Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Montey said: see Six Point Five Guys ten shot ladder testing on you tube for load development I've been running proven loads in different callibers and found I've arrived at the same powder wait. Also I've used this method on a new rifle and I'm very pleased with the results. Also a new powder bullet in my stalking 308 again looking promising. See thread elsewhere on this site for debate on validity (or otherwise) of said methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichalS Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Regarding the factory ammo - it's GGG 175gr. Attached is 10 shot group at 300m (330y), around 0.5MOA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 48 minutes ago, MichalS said: Regarding the factory ammo - it's GGG 175gr. Attached is 10 shot group at 300m (330y), around 0.5MOA. Assuming you shot that 0.5MOA group without a full 'benchrest' set-up and probably no wind flags - I'd buy as much of that GGG as you can afford/hold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichalS Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 It was shot with FTR setup, no wind flags. I have 600 of those left. The problem is for longer range You give up a bit balistically (MV 830m/s from 28" barrell), that's why I decieded to reload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Assuming that the 175gn GGG uses the Sierra MK of that weight (as the NRA match 155 does), I'm not too surprised. At modest MVs, the old 175 often gives amazingly good good groups and is very barrel / chamber / velocity tolerant, at least until you try to drive it fast. I shot one of my smallest ever 100 yard 5-shot groups with an IMR-4064 handload with this bullet in 308 Win, moreover in a factory rifle, an early FN SPR tactical / sniper 24-inch barrel job. It was a genuine 0.1-inch and the rifle/handload shot very well at 300 yards too in the benched winter series 'Precision Rifle' matches we used to shoot at Diggle. For short / mid-range use, if you can get factory ammunition with this bullet to perform as well as that, it becomes difficult to justify handloading at times. Unfortunately, the old 175 with its modest 0.243 average G7 BC and the likely modest MVs from the GGG version isn't competitive these days in F/TR at 500/600 (unless shooting in a flat calm) even in club level competition and is ballistically hopeless beyond 800 yards. I quickly found this with my 175 SMK / 4064 handloads, the Catch 22 being that the tight groups came with ballistically sub-optimal low MVs in the 2,600s and the higher MV loads that met the external ballistics requirement wouldn't produce groups under 0.75-MOA. With a good 155 such as the 155.5gn Berger LRBT Fullbore the better long-range bullets up to and including the 185gn Juggernaut, a good F/TR rifle will average under 0.3-MOA at 100. Note the word average as <0.3-MOA means the best individual groups will be under 0.2-inches. My Osprey Rifles (now GS Precision) built Stolle Atlas will still shoot 0.15-Inch groups with the 155.5gn Berger at an MV that has dropped to through throat wear to 3,027 fps (32-inch barrel) despite it having seen nearly 3,000 rounds down the barrel. The average though will be about 0.3. These bullets at suitable velocities will hold under half-MOA elevation at 1,000 yards, most of a 20-round string in quarter-MOA or thereabouts, unless on a range where wind effects also have an elevation component as in Diggle and Blair Atholl when the wind comes from some directions. The heavier 30-cal bullets in the 200/210gn bracket don't usually group quite as tightly or hold as good elevations at long ranges but buck the wind better and so tend to give better L-R scores over a season. Even so, I've seen those 101RC guys who shoot national level F/TR and who generally like and still stick with the old 210gn Berger BT put five shots into ragged holes in loads testing at 100 at Diggle off the bench despite using not at all optimal bipod front-support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichalS Posted March 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 Laurie, You're correct as usual - You basically described what happened to me during the last competition. The bullet is 175gr SMK @2700 fps. We shoot at 300, 600 and 800m, don't have electronic targets so we shoot 3 sighters, then they are covered with high visibility stickers so we can see them in the scope, adjust and shoot 10 competition shots in succession. If the wind changes slightly beetween sighters and competition shots, You don't know it (no wind flags) so wind resistance is important. At 300m I cleaned the target with ~0.5MOA 10shot group. The sighters are not visible because they were X's at 12 o clock. At 600m the group was still reasonable (0.733MOA) and centering was OK so I got 99 - no one scored higher. I was in the lead at this stage. At 800m (and it happens repetitively) the group got worse (around 1MOA), and additionally some wind pushed it to the right... I finished fourth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 If you're getting 2,700 fps with the 175 SMK and good groups, that really is an excellent factory load. Handloading will allow improvements, but not the large step change often associated with an upgrade from off the shelf ammo. Everything I hear about GGG suggests they produce good stuff - a far remove from RG 155gn 'Bisley Match'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichalS Posted March 15, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 They are 2700-2730fps out of a 28" Polygonal Sabatti barrell (which is supposed to be a bit "faster" than conventional) and very accurate out of pretty much any rifle I've seen them shot from. 77gr SMK GGG in .223 gives similar results from my Tikka T3x (0.33MOA at 100m). Michal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinC Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 Hi Michal I'm testing for the first time my Dolphin Barnard/Bartlein .223 this week end at Bisley, at the 300mt club week end, I want to use only factory in it, the 77gr GGG that you recommended and I want to use, has not reached our shores yet, but I'll test this week end with the GGG 69 gr, and I also have some PPU 75 gr to try, could all be in vain though for serious testing as gales force winds are here now, and forecast to come in this week end with a vengeance! Have Fun Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichalS Posted March 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 Good luck, let us know how it went. I should be testing mid week/next weekend I will create a thread for 300m in target shooting section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 1 hour ago, MichalS said: Good luck, let us know how it went. I should be testing mid week/next weekend I will create a thread for 300m in target shooting section. No one will read it,start a thread on weighing your powder, annealing your brass with hot salt, which primers etc and they’ll be all over you like a rash, talk about actual shooting and your thread will be like a Wild West ghost town with tumbleweeds blowing down main street Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanonry Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 Quite right too. Nothing more boring that looking at someone else's shooting scores. Well that's not really true, its listening to them tell you how they ended up with that score. 🙉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chanonry said: Quite right too. Nothing more boring that looking at someone else's shooting scores. Well that's not really true, its listening to them tell you how they ended up with that score. 🙉 especially if there better than your own 🤔😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanonry Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 They are all better than mine ! 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Re-Pete Posted March 17, 2019 Report Share Posted March 17, 2019 And mine...... Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Hunter Posted July 12, 2019 Report Share Posted July 12, 2019 Michal... Contrary, nothing more borring then read about primers, powders, speeds, bla bla. Tell your stories and setups and post pictures. Especielly, tell us your story on last competition when you won title Champion of Poland in June 2019 FTR 300/600/800 m. Sincirely I admired your results and please take my congratulations. Worth to note that rules of competition in Poland are way harder then Bisley. Tank Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted July 12, 2019 Report Share Posted July 12, 2019 11 hours ago, Tank Hunter said: Michal... Contrary, nothing more borring then read about primers, powders, speeds, bla bla. Why are you reading and commenting on a topic in the Forum's Handloading section then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichalS Posted July 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2019 Tank Hunter, thanks for the compliment, I'm flattered. I love both the trigger pulling and technical/reloading aspects of the sport, and like to discuss both. BTW this forum is a great source of information with lots of knowledgable users willing to share their experience, something I think we lack "at home". Regarding the accuracy of .308Win I managed to extract form my package - the average of 3 three 10 shot groups at 300m, 600m and 800m ended up being 0.543MOA. I think all 3 groups would be ~0.25-0.3MOA at 100m, which is btilliant for a stock factory rifle as far as I'm concerned. Michal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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