6.5 creedmoor and RS62 temperatures

[ronzi83]

I can. This winter i was shooting competition with my load i made in shummer and temperatures were near 0. When i made load it was 25-30 celsius. I come to competition and shoots were all over the place or not in target anymore. Was really frustrationg. My speed went down for almost 150 fps , crazy. Till than i was really happy i used RS62 as Laurie was promoting it as great 6.5 creedmoor powder. I didnt know that time numbers/temp stable . Now i just want to have stable powder with still good velocities. It is hard to get it. Mayby VV N150 can do the trick or i will try also Lovex So70

[Catch-22]

Be mindful of N150 in extreme temps as it can be a little temp sensitive and suddenly spike pressures.

I’ve used Lovex SO70 in a previous rifle (6.5x47, 123g scenars) and simply couldn’t get good velocity, even from a fully compressed case. Accuracy was good but velocity was about 250fps slower than say N140 or Varget. SO70 gave me around 2650fps from a 24” barrel. I never tried it with heavier bullets (140g+). Doing so might produce better velocity. But I suspect SO70 has a very low energy rating, possibly around 3500kj. 

[MichalS]

Can anyone recommend teperature stable 6.5 Creedmoor powders that are actually aviable in Europe?

[Re-Pete]

It's a chemical reaction, so no powder can be completely temperature stable...............some are reputedly better than others. When I know the forecast is for hot weather, I reduce the load slightly.

The receiver will get hot and also affect the temperature of the round (brass is a good conductor of heat), so the time taken to chamber and fire will also play a part.

Pete

[One on top of two]

If I’m having a day in the field shooting  this time of year. I have a small cool box I keep my ammo in. Seems to work ok 👍 was only a cheap sandwich type one from amazon. The cooling gel is built into the box so you just shove the thing in freezer over night and your good to go. Keeps cool for a good 7-8 hrs i rekon 

handy for the range to 👍

[NigelM]

I have been using RS62 in a 6.5x47 Lapua with very accurate results at 18 deg C but drift far from that and groups open up. I went through a period of having 3 loads for it, cold, average and hot weather, all 0.3 grains apart but was getting very pissed off with it. 

This weekend I worked up a load with RL16 which has a slightly faster burn rate but lower density so case fill was very similar at around 100% for the save velocity node. I made up 6 rounds of the chosen load and put 3 of them in the freezer for an hour. Then shot them over a Magnetospeed against the ones at ambient temperature (25 deg)

The 25 degree loads shot a 0.4" group with an SD of 6.3 and average velocity of 2575 fps. 

The 0 degree loads shot a 0.25" group with an SD of 5.2 and average velocity of 2585 fps.

POI was exactly the same and if all 6 were taken as a single 6 shot group it would have measures 0.4" with an SD of 7.1.

That's much better than the RS62 loads which were showing SD's of 11/12 at constant temperatures and the swing from 0 to 25 degC was around 80 fps. 

It's going to work in the 6.5 Lapua for 129 and 150 grain loads, it's too compressed for the 123 Scenars and unfortunately it's going to be too compressed to use in the 7mm08. 

Hope that helps someone.

[MichalS]

NigelM, thats very usefull! Now I just have to find RL16.... The only easly available powders around here are VV, RS and Norma.... Doest anyone have experience with Norma 204 regarding temperature sensitivity?

[ronzi83]

Ok guys. Today i tested N150 with 123 scenar in 610mm long 1/8 new barrel. 

I must say i was shocked. I used Lapua SP 6.5 creedmoor case 1'910 trimm, cci br4 and 2'800 coal with 41.9 grains of n150. It was 29 celsius. 52.1 h2O case volumen

That speed... crazy. No pressure signs at all.  SD 1,7 and ES:4 , this is node, right ? This was 4 shoots (i left 1 so i could measure h20 for reference) 

What really bothers me is QuickLoad with all my data gives me 2901 fps (with temperature and case volumen). 96 fps are somewhere and i do not know why so much difference than QL 

[MichalS]

Brilliant results. Thw question is how it will perform with heavier 140gr class bullets? Regarding WL velocity, I had similar underestimation with RS52 and 155gr Scenar in 308Win.

[ronzi83]

I think (hope i am not wrong) N150 is temp stable powder and doesnt have that nytroglycerine coat so there is no oxidation. But I think 8.8 mil for 1000m is good and i will not need heavy bullet, mayby i am wrong ? 

If someone has time to calculate my node would be great to see if it is  really node? 

 

 

[Catch-22]

N150 is a single based powder, so should be stable(ish) and won’t destroy your barrel like the double based powders can.

N150 performs well with heavier bullets too...definitely give it a go!

[Brillo]

Re the comments about Quickload N150 predictions, the N150 batches from 2018 are significantly different from previous years and this throws Quickload way out inasmuch that real MVs are much higher.

[ronzi83]

Yea i see on some forums says 10% speed. This is a lot imo . Strange think is i got SD1.7 and ES 4 , but is not my node from OBT. Mayby "micro" node ? Will try RS60 , lovex so70 and will give some more data. N540 QL data is accure (6-7 fps difference than my magnetospeed). 

[Catch-22]

On 8/5/2019 at 4:43 PM, ronzi83 said:

I think (hope i am not wrong) N150 is temp stable powder and doesnt have that nytroglycerine coat so there is no oxidation. But I think 8.8 mil for 1000m is good and i will not need heavy bullet, mayby i am wrong ? 

If someone has time to calculate my node would be great to see if it is  really node? 

 

 

Ronzi,

Using TRASOL and Lapua ballistics, they both suggest that from a 26” barrel, 123g scenar pushed at 2997fps, the bullet will enter the transonic realm at around 1000m. It will then go subsonic at around 1120m.

Hth. 

[VarmLR]

I'm a bit late to the party here but after I use up my current batch of RS62, I'd like to move to another powder.  Temp sensitivity is one reason but so is the very non-uniform grain size which makes accurate metering a pain compared with handling say N133 for the .223.

I was going to try either Norma's 204 (double base) not pushed too hot to avoid accelerated throat erosion.  Does anyone know if this is as hot as say RS52 or N550?  Any updates from those who've tried Loxex powders too?

[One on top of two]

3 hours ago, VarmLR said:

I'm a bit late to the party here but after I use up my current batch of RS62, I'd like to move to another powder.  Temp sensitivity is one reason but so is the very non-uniform grain size which makes accurate metering a pain compared with handling say N133 for the .223.

I was going to try either Norma's 204 (double base) not pushed too hot to avoid accelerated throat erosion.  Does anyone know if this is as hot as say RS52 or N550?  Any updates from those who've tried Loxex powders too?

No RS52 is nothing like N550 

N550 is the same as RS60 ( heat wise / burn rate )  

i made the switch to 204 a while back ,  burn rate is  identical to H4350 , loads the same to . In fact I’m using H4350 data for my creedmoor, 👍

RS 62 is a great powder  in the cooler months , 

ive been at range today and some the lads are struggling like mad in the heat at 600m , the lad next to me rekoned he had to drop 5 mills over the course of an hr . 😳

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, One on top of two said:

No RS52 is nothing like N550

N550 is the same as RS60 ( heat wise / burn rate )

i made the switch to 204 a while back ,  burn rate is  identical to H4350 , loads the same to . In fact I’m using H4350 data for my creedmoor, 👍

RS 62 is a great powder  in the cooler months ,

ive been at range today and some the lads are struggling like mad in the heat at 600m , the lad next to me rekoned he had to drop 5 mills over the course of an hr . 😳

 

I agree RS52 is very different to N550, but VarmLR says he was using RS62, very similar burn rate to the 4350s, N150/550, and N204 but single-based of course.

It's interesting (and encouraging) that you find N204 so close to H4350. I intend to do some comparative tests in 260 Rem next winter looking for alternatives to IMR and Hodgdon H4350. RS62, Norma N204 and URP, Viht N550, Alliant Re16, and Lovex SO65 look the most likely possibilities. In the US, Re16 is being quoted as a very close match to H4350, very temperature tolerant - allegedly as good as the best of the Hodgdon / ADI 'Extreme' grades, and giving somewhat higher MVs than H4350 in suitable cartridges. It is of course double-based like all Alliant and Norma powders and I haven't seen a % value anywhere as yet, so may be hard on barrels if loaded up fully.

Like the Norma grades, Re16 is manufactured by Bofors in Sweden, but has Bofors / Alliant's new 'TZ' treatment technology to reduce temperature change effects. It is finally available here and I've bought a couple of pounds to try.

Norma powders have always had a reputation for being very temperature affected. I certainly found that with Alliant Re15 (same thing as Norma 203-B) in 223 some years ago even in our climate. Whether the newer grades such as URP are better I don't know, likewise whether Bofors / Norma are respecifying existing grades or improvements are restricted to the new ones only available under the Alliant brand name with 'TZ' (Re16 and 23 so far).

Even if they've not said so, most propellant manufacturers are looking to reduce the temperature sensitivity of their ranges. Vihtavuori is allegedly in the process of doing so for all of its rifle powders whether N100 or 500 series. So far the only one they're admitting to is the new N565, but rumours say other older grades have been 'done' too. The company is keeping very tight on this and will only announce it if and when the entire range has been modified. Whether any such change affects other characteristics is an interesting (and important) question given that Viht has a reputation for lot to lot consistency so no need until now to check if a new lot needs any load adjustment.

Returning to N204 it is one of the lower nitroglycerin content Norma grades at 4.5% by weight, so should give a small performance boost but without significant extra wear and tear. The new(ish) URP is one of the three 'hottest' Bofors/Norma grades at 10.5% alongside 217 and slightly less than MRP's 11.5%. URP is stated by Norma to be slightly faster burning than 204, and its applications are similar looking at Norma's No.2 manual published last year. In some applications, it gives little or no MV increase over 204 at Norma's listed maximum loads; in others, MV is significantly higher.

Lovex SO70 (being the old Accurate-4350) would seem the most likely 4350 alternative from that source, but was always known to be the slowest burning of the 4350 trio. I've never found it as satisfactory as the IMR and H versions perhaps partly for this reason. SO65 though looks interesting. Explosia's burn rate chart shows it on the same horizontal line as H. VarGet which is clearly nonsence. It makes a very poor VarGet replacement in cartridges like 308 Win and superficial digging in Explosia's Lovex loads data tables shows it's much more at home in higher case capacity to bore ratio cartridges like 7X64 and 7X57mm. I've used it for some time in a long-throat 7mm-08 F-Open rifle with very good results indeed with the 150gn Lapua Scenar-L as a short-distance load. I note with some interest that Shooters World in the US which is now distributing Lovex powders under US-orientated SW brand names (SO65 becomes 'SW Long Rifle' for instance) raves about it for use in the 6.5mm Creedmoor ....

https://shootersworldpowder.com/long-rifle/

.......... the classic H4350 application. One problem is that Explosia's own loads data omits many cartridges people here might want to try it in, 260 Rem and 6.5mm Creedmoor for instance. Shooters World is building up its own pressure-tested data-sets

https://shootersworldpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/shooters-world-manual.pdf

which fills some gaps. There's a good selection of Creedmoor load combinations.

[One on top of two]

41.5 grains of Norma 204  under a Lapua Scenar 139 grain which is giving me and average of 2750 FPS 

Using Peterson LRP brass , GM 210 

 

 

[One on top of two]

Using the same combo but with Hornady brass will be Around 60 FPS slower .

which will be inline with Hornady data . Give or take a little 🤔

 

 

 

 

[Catch-22]

On 8/24/2019 at 6:21 PM, Laurie said:

 

I agree RS52 is very different to N550, but VarmLR says he was using RS62, very similar burn rate to the 4350s, N150/550, and N204 but single-based of course.

It's interesting (and encouraging) that you find N204 so close to H4350. I intend to do some comparative tests in 260 Rem next winter looking for alternatives to IMR and Hodgdon H4350. RS62, Norma N204 and URP, Viht N550, Alliant Re16, and Lovex SO65 look the most likely possibilities. In the US, Re16 is being quoted as a very close match to H4350, very temperature tolerant - allegedly as good as the best of the Hodgdon / ADI 'Extreme' grades, and giving somewhat higher MVs than H4350 in suitable cartridges. It is of course double-based like all Alliant and Norma powders and I haven't seen a % value anywhere as yet, so may be hard on barrels if loaded up fully.

Like the Norma grades, Re16 is manufactured by Bofors in Sweden, but has Bofors / Alliant's new 'TZ' treatment technology to reduce temperature change effects. It is finally available here and I've bought a couple of pounds to try.

Norma powders have always had a reputation for being very temperature affected. I certainly found that with Alliant Re15 (same thing as Norma 203-B) in 223 some years ago even in our climate. Whether the newer grades such as URP are better I don't know, likewise whether Bofors / Norma are respecifying existing grades or improvements are restricted to the new ones only available under the Alliant brand name with 'TZ' (Re16 and 23 so far).

Even if they've not said so, most propellant manufacturers are looking to reduce the temperature sensitivity of their ranges. Vihtavuori is allegedly in the process of doing so for all of its rifle powders whether N100 or 500 series. So far the only one they're admitting to is the new N565, but rumours say other older grades have been 'done' too. The company is keeping very tight on this and will only announce it if and when the entire range has been modified. Whether any such change affects other characteristics is an interesting (and important) question given that Viht has a reputation for lot to lot consistency so no need until now to check if a new lot needs any load adjustment.

Returning to N204 it is one of the lower nitroglycerin content Norma grades at 4.5% by weight, so should give a small performance boost but without significant extra wear and tear. The new(ish) URP is one of the three 'hottest' Bofors/Norma grades at 10.5% alongside 217 and slightly less than MRP's 11.5%. URP is stated by Norma to be slightly faster burning than 204, and its applications are similar looking at Norma's No.2 manual published last year. In some applications, it gives little or no MV increase over 204 at Norma's listed maximum loads; in others, MV is significantly higher.

Lovex SO70 (being the old Accurate-4350) would seem the most likely 4350 alternative from that source, but was always known to be the slowest burning of the 4350 trio. I've never found it as satisfactory as the IMR and H versions perhaps partly for this reason. SO65 though looks interesting. Explosia's burn rate chart shows it on the same horizontal line as H. VarGet which is clearly nonsence. It makes a very poor VarGet replacement in cartridges like 308 Win and superficial digging in Explosia's Lovex loads data tables shows it's much more at home in higher case capacity to bore ratio cartridges like 7X64 and 7X57mm. I've used it for some time in a long-throat 7mm-08 F-Open rifle with very good results indeed with the 150gn Lapua Scenar-L as a short-distance load. I note with some interest that Shooters World in the US which is now distributing Lovex powders under US-orientated SW brand names (SO65 becomes 'SW Long Rifle' for instance) raves about it for use in the 6.5mm Creedmoor ....

https://shootersworldpowder.com/long-rifle/

.......... the classic H4350 application. One problem is that Explosia's own loads data omits many cartridges people here might want to try it in, 260 Rem and 6.5mm Creedmoor for instance. Shooters World is building up its own pressure-tested data-sets

https://shootersworldpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/shooters-world-manual.pdf

which fills some gaps. There's a good selection of Creedmoor load combinations.

Laurie - when looking for suitable comparisons to H4350, will you also take a look at RAMSHOT Hunter? Seems to slot right into the H4350 pack.

I’ve personally never liked ball powders (too messy on the reloading bench) but it might provide good velocity and is readily available in the UK...though prices are going up!

[Laurie]

Yes, I have Hunter and have used it in a few things over the last few years. It'll be one of those tried in the 260. It flows too well for the RCBS Chargemaster even with David, Shooting Shed, Bonwick's thingie used, so it (and other Ramshots) sees my old Hornady 'Competition' volumetric measure recalled to use. In this tool, the Ramshot grades produce remarkably consistent weights.

[VarmLR]

I will follow with interest.  I had Ramshot Hunter on my radar as well as Norma 204.  I'll stick with RS62 until more data comes out for the others, as our spell of hot weather is coming to a close.  Sounds like the Ramshot might meter well in one of my comp' powder throwers...

[DaveHol]

Hi

Does anyone know of a dealer stocking Norma powders (ideally N204) in or near Bedfordshire?

 

 

[ronzi83]

Guys, any news ? Did anyone tried RS70 with 147 eldm? In QL i get 5th node at 45grains, with 848ms / 2781fps. Just wondering what would be ideal for 147eldm, full case and slow burn or fast burner(RS60-N550).

[No i deer]

Maybe the RS62 load in my 6.5x47 is temperature sensitive then.....

I was thinking it was me....

sometimes it shoots absalutely amazing then other day 🤔 what happened there 🙄....

I quite believe that can be me at times.....