That bald headed Geordie Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Morning Gents, I use electronic scales and every now and then the scales are affected by voltage surge. It is not serious but I was wondering if anyone can recommend a particular type of line protection device (brand, type, number etc) to reduce any fluctuation. Cheers, Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattnall Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 Would one of the surge protected short extensions you can get for computers work? Maybe somewhere like Curry's or on-line would sell them. Not sure if they work but I've been using one on the PC for years and that still works, we get power outages regularly which is why it was recommended to use one but don't know if it has stopped any surges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 54 minutes ago, That bald headed Geordie said: Morning Gents, I use electronic scales and every now and then the scales are affected by voltage surge. It is not serious but I was wondering if anyone can recommend a particular type of line protection device (brand, type, number etc) to reduce any fluctuation. Cheers, Les I have some professional expertise here. How are you identifying a "voltage surge"? Are you in a remote area or in/near town? Ongoing surges would be an issue for your local supplier to sort out. Voltage spikes are not the same thing, that could be locally generated problems like large machinery in or near to your incoming service. If it's transient spiking then a "surge suppressing" device will help. The best type are DIN mounted and would need an electrician to fit (https://www.screwfix.com/p/schneider-electric-easy9-type-2-surge-protection-device-20ka/394gv). The cheap plug in dis-boards are barely adequate, they do suppress RF interference a bit as that's really quite easy. You could try a plug in solution as if it works, all well and good. Check you have a decent earth connection back to your dis-board (necessary for safety as well) as suppression usually requires a good earth to 'decouple' the noise signal. Is your scale connected via a plug-in power supply? If so I'd be a little surprised if it's a mains born problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcampbellsmith Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 I keep my mobile phone and any other electronics out of the room that I now use for reloading. Regards JCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted February 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Popsbengo said: I have some professional expertise here. How are you identifying a "voltage surge"? Are you in a remote area or in/near town? Ongoing surges would be an issue for your local supplier to sort out. Voltage spikes are not the same thing, that could be locally generated problems like large machinery in or near to your incoming service. If it's transient spiking then a "surge suppressing" device will help. The best type are DIN mounted and would need an electrician to fit (https://www.screwfix.com/p/schneider-electric-easy9-type-2-surge-protection-device-20ka/394gv). The cheap plug in dis-boards are barely adequate, they do suppress RF interference a bit as that's really quite easy. You could try a plug in solution as if it works, all well and good. Check you have a decent earth connection back to your dis-board (necessary for safety as well) as suppression usually requires a good earth to 'decouple' the noise signal. Is your scale connected via a plug-in power supply? If so I'd be a little surprised if it's a mains born problem. Thanks for that info. It is not a serious problem since I purchased the A&D scale but sometimes the zero 'wanders' and I had just made a presumption that it was some kind of interference from the mains supply or an external kind. Being a layman I just wondered if somekind of plug in device would improve things. I do wipe down the scale to reduce static etc. I do not take my mobile phone into the room and I do let the scale warm up for sometime before using it. I can live with it but I was after a quick solution without resorting to getting an expert in. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted February 16, 2019 Report Share Posted February 16, 2019 46 minutes ago, That bald headed Geordie said: Thanks for that info. It is not a serious problem since I purchased the A&D scale but sometimes the zero 'wanders' and I had just made a presumption that it was some kind of interference from the mains supply or an external kind. Being a layman I just wondered if somekind of plug in device would improve things. I do wipe down the scale to reduce static etc. I do not take my mobile phone into the room and I do let the scale warm up for sometime before using it. I can live with it but I was after a quick solution without resorting to getting an expert in. Cheers I seriously doubt you have a mains-borne problem. The usual cause of electronics drifting is temperature stability or air movement, the analogue components in the strain-gauge circuit will need to stabilise. Sometimes the measurement precision we expect is really difficult to achieve: in a metrology lab the temperature and humidity is strictly controlled. I certainly agree that static electricity can affect readings and if you held a mobile phone on transmit next to the scale it may affect the load cell circuit but I seriously doubt any affect if the phone is across the room. There's a lot of voodoo nonsense out there. The best set up for repeatable measuring is a perfectly horizontal, flat and stiff base for the scales (I have an old marble slab on isolation spikes). If it can be isolated from vibration all the better. Let the scales settle at a constant room temperature for at least 20mins. I check my scales zero and calibrate when settled. Seems to work, I can maintain better than .02gn (I have laboratory scales). I check zero occasionally as I work and wipe the pan clean of dust as well occasionally (make sure it's anti-static). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Tales Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 I'm with JCS on this and remove all electronics from the near vacinity . I also have a ferrite rfi filter on the power supply cable . As for surge/spike protection, I think the £20 wallwart device is peace of mind and just common sense if you're using expensive and sensitive electronics . A spike in our mains power supply fried a very expensive hifi amp , which cost a small fortune to repair . If you think you'll get any joy from your supplier, good luck , I didn't.😭 As for warm up , the longer the better . I usually allow 2 hours minimum. 👍 Not an expert. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted February 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 2/16/2019 at 3:21 PM, Popsbengo said: I seriously doubt you have a mains-borne problem. The usual cause of electronics drifting is temperature stability or air movement, the analogue components in the strain-gauge circuit will need to stabilise. Sometimes the measurement precision we expect is really difficult to achieve: in a metrology lab the temperature and humidity is strictly controlled. I certainly agree that static electricity can affect readings and if you held a mobile phone on transmit next to the scale it may affect the load cell circuit but I seriously doubt any affect if the phone is across the room. There's a lot of voodoo nonsense out there. The best set up for repeatable measuring is a perfectly horizontal, flat and stiff base for the scales (I have an old marble slab on isolation spikes). If it can be isolated from vibration all the better. Let the scales settle at a constant room temperature for at least 20mins. I check my scales zero and calibrate when settled. Seems to work, I can maintain better than .02gn (I have laboratory scales). I check zero occasionally as I work and wipe the pan clean of dust as well occasionally (make sure it's anti-static). Thanks for taking the time to explain, much appreciated. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted February 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Fox Tales said: I'm with JCS on this and remove all electronics from the near vacinity . I also have a ferrite rfi filter on the power supply cable . As for surge/spike protection, I think the £20 wallwart device is peace of mind and just common sense if you're using expensive and sensitive electronics . A spike in our mains power supply fried a very expensive hifi amp , which cost a small fortune to repair . If you think you'll get any joy from your supplier, good luck , I didn't.😭 As for warm up , the longer the better . I usually allow 2 hours minimum. 👍 Not an expert. .... Cheers for the info FT. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicklock Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 From the point of view of the balance itself, the A&D devices already have a surge suppressor - it's the black lump that you plug into the wall socket. This is a voltage regulator, as well as an AC --> DC converter, and does quite a good job of moderating the hellishly high 230VAC (+10%, -6%) mains voltage down to a more sensible 12VDC (probably, haven't actually checked mine) that the balance input requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted February 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, nicklock said: From the point of view of the balance itself, the A&D devices already have a surge suppressor - it's the black lump that you plug into the wall socket. This is a voltage regulator, as well as an AC --> DC converter, and does quite a good job of moderating the hellishly high 230VAC (+10%, -6%) mains voltage down to a more sensible 12VDC (probably, haven't actually checked mine) that the balance input requires. Didn't know that nicklock so thanks. I am thinking that what I thought was a problem with fluctuating power supply was most likely caused by air temp fluctuations, drafts etc. Thanks to all that replied. Good shooting, Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicklock Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 When you're down to the 3rd decimal point*, it doesn't take much pressure change at all to wobble the reading! Just as an exercise: turn it on, zero it out and wave your hand around a few inches away from the pan * I used to have a 4DP balance in the lab, in a previous life, and that required the full-height, full-closure protective cover over it before it would stabilise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That bald headed Geordie Posted February 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, nicklock said: When you're down to the 3rd decimal point*, it doesn't take much pressure change at all to wobble the reading! Just as an exercise: turn it on, zero it out and wave your hand around a few inches away from the pan * I used to have a 4DP balance in the lab, in a previous life, and that required the full-height, full-closure protective cover over it before it would stabilise! Bet that cost a few shillings? A little overkill for 32 grains of N150! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch-22 Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 If your reloading room has a window and gets direct sunlight through it, it will definitely affect air temp and cause the scale to drift. My previous reloading room had a bench that backed out onto a large window (didn't have anywhere else at the time) and noticed that as the sun beamed into the room, the scale would start to wander. On less sunny days or night time, no drifting occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicklock Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, That bald headed Geordie said: Bet that cost a few shillings? A little overkill for 32 grains of N150! Back then it certainly did - I think they were about 6 grand! These days, technology has certainly improved, and you can pick up something similar for a mere £1141+VAT: https://www.precisionbalance.co.uk/by-manufacturer/sartorius/sartorius-entris-series.html O_O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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