Chef Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Hi guys, Sorry if this has been covered before, but I just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced this in the West Yorkshire area recently? On Saturday afternoon, two armed response officers paid a visit to my house to check that I’m storing my guns properly, I wasn't in when they came (out shooting) so they politely said they would come back another day. While I don’t have a problem with legitimate security checks, I’m a bit annoyed that although they were plain clothed, they turned up wearing body armour and were fully armed, which along with scaring the daylights out of my daughter, is also far from inconspicuous, there’s nothing like a visit from armed response to get the neighbours noticing and talking! The question is, is this a legitimate check and am I on safe ground showing them my guns and where I store them if asked? I seem to remember my FEO saying that firearms licensing were the only ones with this authority? Cheers Chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banus02 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 contact your feo and ask them,sounds bogus to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VarmLR Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 The police can turn up unannounced but they have to explain why, there and then, and they do have to provide good reason for the unannounced check. This is what the HO guidance stipulates from October 2014 when changes to guidance on home security checks were announced in line with new police initiatives on security: “Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate. It is recognised that there is no new power of entry for police or police staff when conducting home visits. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder the police must provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.” To arrive fully armed would seem to constitute disproportionate action unless they had received intelligence which suggested that a threat was posed by the certificate holder. As (hopefully!) this was not the case, it seems reasonable to both issue a complaint and to question why they turned up at your doorstep armed. If they had received intelligence that have them reasonable suspicion then they would have been well within rights to turn up like that but would also have had to explain why before going away. Did they leave a reason or did they just turn up, leave the message and leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I've just taken Banus02's advice and given firearms licensing a call, they said these are legitimate checks requested by the licensing department. The lady I spoke to said Firearms licensing randomly select five certificate holders to receive security spot checks each week, and firearms officers are the only ones that can carry this out. I was advised to show them my guns and where I store them if asked. The fact they come armed just seems a bit OTT to me and it certainly draws unwanted attention, so even though I'm sure it won't make any difference, I've asked for this comment to be passed on the department manager. Cheers Chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, VarmLR said: The police can turn up unannounced but they have to explain why, there and then, and they do have to provide good reason for the unannounced check. This is what the HO guidance stipulates from October 2014 when changes to guidance on home security checks were announced in line with new police initiatives on security: “Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate. It is recognised that there is no new power of entry for police or police staff when conducting home visits. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder the police must provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.” To arrive fully armed would seem to constitute disproportionate action unless they had received intelligence which suggested that a threat was posed by the certificate holder. As (hopefully!) this was not the case, it seems reasonable to both issue a complaint and to question why they turned up at your doorstep armed. If they had received intelligence that have them reasonable suspicion then they would have been well within rights to turn up like that but would also have had to explain why before going away. Did they leave a reason or did they just turn up, leave the message and leave? The only reason they gave was that it was a spot check to ensure I was storing my guns correctly, which I suppose they would say is good reason. They then said they would come back another day and left. I did wonder if they were armed purely because they were on duty firearms officers? When I asked the lady in the office she said she didn't know they turned up armed but that its more or less up to them how they respond to the request! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzarM1 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I really couldn't agree with a random check on security being a good reason ….not unless the visit was in conjunction with somebody waving a gun around on the front lawn which could rightly be construed as a credible threat? Being treated like a potential criminal under the veil of achieving public protection to my mind is nothing short of intimidation... which begs the question why ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 This also needs reporting to your shooting org , BASC , CA ect ect also contacting your PCC to ask why this disproportionate action can’t be conducted by your FEO . Now everyone down your street knows you have firearms and therefore potentially putting your security efforts in doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banus02 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 good afternoon ,if this is the case contact who ever your shooting association is and get them to have a word/look into this as it is not normal procedure. chef which police force issued your fac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I know many others might not agree with me, but I'm not actually bothered about receiving a random security check, what bothers me is that for no reason whatsoever, they decided to perform this check armed. Like GazzarM1 says, it does make you feel a bit like a criminal and I agree, it would be fair enough if they'd had reports of someone waving a gun around in the garden etc.. but as my guns only come out of the house in a slip or hard case and are only put in the car when I'm ready to go, this certainly wasn't the case. Does anyone know if this is happening in other areas? Chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Which aspect of this is causing the emotions, the random visit or the random visit with a gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 The random visit with guns, which might seem a bit odd given we're all used to seeing and using guns, but it just seems unnecessary, especially considering FEO's don't come armed. Also from the point of view that was previously mentioned, it doesn't go unnoticed when armed police pay a visit during the middle of Saturday afternoon. My opening question was to ask if others on here have had the same kind of checks and if they are legitimate checks, in twenty years of gun ownership and shooting I have never heard of this happening, if they are legitimate, and according to West York's Firearms Licensing Dept they are, then that's fine but I'd still prefer them to be more discreet. Chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 When I moved house my home check was done by two tactical officers fully armed and in uniform. The visit was expected but not arranged. I did think it was rather likely to alarm my neighbours unnecessarily. Apparently Staffs do this on occasion, they were both very polite and checked off my guns against their list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRD Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Chef said: Hi guys, Sorry if this has been covered before, but I just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced this in the West Yorkshire area recently? On Saturday afternoon, two armed response officers paid a visit to my house to check that I’m storing my guns properly, I wasn't in when they came (out shooting) so they politely said they would come back another day. While I don’t have a problem with legitimate security checks, I’m a bit annoyed that although they were plain clothed, they turned up wearing body armour and were fully armed, which along with scaring the daylights out of my daughter, is also far from inconspicuous, there’s nothing like a visit from armed response to get the neighbours noticing and talking! The question is, is this a legitimate check and am I on safe ground showing them my guns and where I store them if asked? I seem to remember my FEO saying that firearms licensing were the only ones with this authority? Cheers Chef I think you will find they can do what they want, when they want and how they want. A guideline is exactly what it says and they are rarely followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1562 Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I'm assuming that the officers were armed with sidearm only ? It is quite common for ARV units to be deployed on F/A licensing checks and I understand that your issuing force are doing "random" checks. As already pointed out this is not within the guidelines as these "random" checks should be intelligence based. Almost all ARV crews are now routinely armed with sidearms and will conduct all policing duties whilst armed, issuing tickets, dealing with shoplifters, etc. So for them to attend with sidearms is not out of the ordinary....however if they attended with carbines, this would suggest entirely a different kind of visit ! Regards, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangbangman Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I've heard about the random checks but not by armed officers. The appearance of armed police on a doorstep us enough to get the public snapping/videoing with the ubiquitous smart phones and uploading to their local rag/social meejah etc. If anything, such ostentatious checks may be detrimental to firearm security. If this happens to me (armed police on doorstep, unannounced) I will be contacting BASC, NRA etc. If they see FAC holders as some sort of threat, or criminal-in-waiting, they have a seriously warped view of their priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Armed officers came to my club for a random check (the club has a resident RFD who was the subject of the check). The owner asked them to leave their firearms in their car. They were happy to comply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Posted January 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 15 hours ago, Rob1562 said: I'm assuming that the officers were armed with sidearm only ? It is quite common for ARV units to be deployed on F/A licensing checks and I understand that your issuing force are doing "random" checks. As already pointed out this is not within the guidelines as these "random" checks should be intelligence based. Almost all ARV crews are now routinely armed with sidearms and will conduct all policing duties whilst armed, issuing tickets, dealing with shoplifters, etc. So for them to attend with sidearms is not out of the ordinary....however if they attended with carbines, this would suggest entirely a different kind of visit ! Regards, Rob. Thanks for all the replies guys. Rob your clarification on them being routinely armed whilst carrying out all police duties, including F/A licensing is helpful, not realising this, I envisaged them arming themselves as they left the vehicle which is why I thought it was a bit unnecessary, although, when they do come back I will ask what "intelligence" has prompted this "Random" check? Regards Chef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattnall Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 You still don't have to let them in, even if they have a 'reasonable' excuse for the check. It is inconvenient at any time to turn up unannounced, the courts have issued many statements to forces about illegal entry as it is costing the police forces around the country a fortune in compensation. Now if they had any issues or credible intel they would have got a warrant and been in whether you were there or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 On 1/21/2019 at 3:05 PM, VarmLR said: The police can turn up unannounced but they have to explain why, there and then, and they do have to provide good reason for the unannounced check. This is what the HO guidance stipulates from October 2014 when changes to guidance on home security checks were announced in line with new police initiatives on security: “Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of a certificate holder’s firearms and shotguns. It is not expected that the police will undertake an unannounced home visit at an unsocial hour unless there is a justified and specific requirement to do so on the grounds of crime prevention or public safety concerns and the police judge that this action is both justified and proportionate. It is recognised that there is no new power of entry for police or police staff when conducting home visits. To mitigate any misunderstanding on the part of the certificate holder the police must provide a clear and reasoned explanation to the certificate holder at the time of the visit.” To arrive fully armed would seem to constitute disproportionate action unless they had received intelligence which suggested that a threat was posed by the certificate holder. As (hopefully!) this was not the case, it seems reasonable to both issue a complaint and to question why they turned up at your doorstep armed. If they had received intelligence that have them reasonable suspicion then they would have been well within rights to turn up like that but would also have had to explain why before going away. Did they leave a reason or did they just turn up, leave the message and leave? So no justification for selecting a few random FAC holders for checks that are showing no threat.The visit was not justified (presuming no “specific intel in light of a specific threat”) trurning up armed totally un necessary The only justification could be the arms are safer in the possession of the officers rather than left locked in their vehicles. Has someone landed you in it? Sound malicious to me. never heard of this before only with aggravating cercumstances. Arguments, confrontation..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 On 1/21/2019 at 4:55 PM, bradders said: Which aspect of this is causing the emotions, the random visit or the random visit with a gun? I would say both under the circumstances put forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1562 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 in all honesty they have given a reason for the visit.....a random security check which they are entitled to do at any time. However they do not have a power of entry for a random check, which they obviously did not enforce at the time and suggested they would come back on a later date. My suggestion would be to ring back and arrange a time convenient to you, which obviously shows willing on your behalf , and that you have nothing to hide. If they are acting on intelligence, then they do have a power of entry and refusing entry will end up in a whole heap of **** ! I am almost certain this is an example of FLD making use of ARV downtime to carry out checks on their behalf. I know not all ARV staff are shooters but I have read numerous posts from people complaining about FEO/PCSO's who have no idea which end of the gun goes bang so don't think it's entirely appropriate to complain when firearms officers carry out these checks. Regards, Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, sam39 said: Where it is judged necessary, based on specific intelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, the police may undertake an unannounced home visit to check the security of That’s not random Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedoc Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 All enforcers undertake random visits these include the fire service, trading standards officers to name 2 so why should the police be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, sam39 said: undertake 3 minutes ago, firedoc said: All enforcers undertake random visits these include the fire service, trading standards officers to name 2 so why should the police be any different? Where it is judged necessary, based on specificintelligence in light of a particular threat, or risk of harm, because of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 Fire service carry out a magnificent job. I thought of them as life savers rather than “enforcers” 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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