Worth a read...........

[Re-Pete]

And I'd definitely vote leave if it meant that:

The transport/energy/water/NHS  industries would come back into public ownership, trains would run on time and be affordable to all, bus routes would be designed for the convenience of the people living in isolated communities, right to buy social housing was ended, fuel revenue was actually spent on the roads, I could say/publish what I thought without fear of arrest, HMRC would actually go after tax dodgers, there was a benefits system that worked for those who needed it so that no-one had to sleep on the streets and food banks were unnecessary, we had enough UK qualified medical personnel to cover our needs without poaching doctors etc. from countries that need them, we had proper beat bobbies again who looked as though they might actually catch someone if they had to run after them, unnecessary subsidies like winter fuel allowance were targeted at those in need.......................but it wouldn't. We'd still be "subjects" of our jackass establishment, the likes of mogg and johnson et al.

Pete

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, Gluv said:

I know we won't end up sacrificing anything other than our freedom, history and democracy 

The so-called people's vote is coming ,check out the odds with The bookies . The difference this time will be the scumbag peasants will vote to stay in despite whatever they put a cross by on the ballot paper. 

Say goodbye to democracy,free speech and say hello to Thoughtcrime 🙁

Gluv🇬🇧

I will sacrifice soft toilet paper to keep hold of the Eskdale Muir bus 👍😂

 

That's what I like, real commitment;  your poor bum 😂🤣

[Popsbengo]

12 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

And I'd definitely vote leave if it meant that:

The transport/energy/water/NHS  industries would come back into public ownership, trains would run on time and be affordable to all, bus routes would be designed for the convenience of the people living in isolated communities, right to buy social housing was ended, fuel revenue was actually spent on the roads, I could say/publish what I thought without fear of arrest, HMRC would actually go after tax dodgers, there was a benefits system that worked for those who needed it so that no-one had to sleep on the streets and food banks were unnecessary, we had enough UK qualified medical personnel to cover our needs without poaching doctors etc. from countries that need them, we had proper beat bobbies again who looked as though they might actually catch someone if they had to run after them, unnecessary subsidies like winter fuel allowance were targeted at those in need.......................but it wouldn't. We'd still be "subjects" of our jackass establishment, the likes of mogg and johnson et al.

Pete

+1 indeed

[stottycake]

2 hours ago, Re-Pete said:

And I'd definitely vote leave if it meant that:

The transport/energy/water/NHS  industries would come back into public ownership, trains would run on time and be affordable to all, bus routes would be designed for the convenience of the people living in isolated communities, right to buy social housing was ended, fuel revenue was actually spent on the roads, I could say/publish what I thought without fear of arrest, HMRC would actually go after tax dodgers, there was a benefits system that worked for those who needed it so that no-one had to sleep on the streets and food banks were unnecessary, we had enough UK qualified medical personnel to cover our needs without poaching doctors etc. from countries that need them, we had proper beat bobbies again who looked as though they might actually catch someone if they had to run after them, unnecessary subsidies like winter fuel allowance were targeted at those in need.......................but it wouldn't. We'd still be "subjects" of our jackass establishment, the likes of mogg and johnson et al.

Pete

No doubt comrade Corbyn will promise you all of that and more,😂😂😂

[Re-Pete]

Corbyn is a politician, the same as the rest. He's hinted at installing compassionate government if he get's a chance, but I'm not holding my breath...........

Pete

[stottycake]

1 hour ago, Re-Pete said:

Corbyn is a politician, the same as the rest. He's hinted at installing compassionate government if he get's a chance, but I'm not holding my breath...........

Pete

Really ,I would describe him as a chancer,who will promise anything. 

[Catch-22]

5 hours ago, Re-Pete said:

And I'd definitely vote leave if it meant that:

The transport/energy/water/NHS  industries would come back into public ownership, trains would run on time and be affordable to all, bus routes would be designed for the convenience of the people living in isolated communities, right to buy social housing was ended, fuel revenue was actually spent on the roads, I could say/publish what I thought without fear of arrest, HMRC would actually go after tax dodgers, there was a benefits system that worked for those who needed it so that no-one had to sleep on the streets and food banks were unnecessary, we had enough UK qualified medical personnel to cover our needs without poaching doctors etc. from countries that need them, we had proper beat bobbies again who looked as though they might actually catch someone if they had to run after them, unnecessary subsidies like winter fuel allowance were targeted at those in need.......................but it wouldn't. We'd still be "subjects" of our jackass establishment, the likes of mogg and johnson et al.

Pete

I couldn't agree with you more. I think everyone else in this country would too, regardless of whether they're remainers, leavers, conservative, labour, liberal etc.

However none of this will be achievable under a Corbyn government. 

The issue with Corbyn, along with McDonnell, Mccluskey, Milne and the rest of his inner circle, are that they are all hardline Marxists. They don't believe in free markets, hate capatilism and everything that has made ALL existing Western (and all successful developing) nations succeed.

All the lovely aspirations and goals named above have ONLY been achievable as a result of capitalism. Granted, capitalism does have many, horrible aspects to it. Yet they pail in comparison to what Marxism has brought, and continues to bring to the world. Not only has EVERY Marxist led state failed miserably (economically, politically and socially), but the untold poverty, misery, genocide, hunger and utter insanity created as a result of Marxism, should show us never to let it happen here. And yet Corbyn and his band of bozos want it here.

And let's not forget, Corbyn hates the EU too, as did his Labour idol, Tony Benn. They hate the common market, free trade, competition etc. They want control, a state controlled disctatorship...like ALL other failed Marxist nations.

And yet they're happy to thrive and benefit from everything a capitalist nation provides for them...all the amazing virtues, privilidges and aspirations already listed. NONE of them have lived in under Marxist rule, nor benefitted from living in one. So what do they really know?!? I say, if Corbyn, Milne and the rest love Marxism so much, they should relocate to Venezuela and see how well it's helping the people there!

[Popsbengo]

Corbyn is an idealistic fool, along with his inner circle.  I don't knock his genuine desire to help the disadvantaged but it's always bound up with idealistic hypocrisy and dogma.  A good book is "What's Left?" by Nick Cohen, he points up the idiocy of the Leftist movement quite well (a bit ranty and repetitious but worth it).

What pisses me off is who the fork can I vote for now?  Never voted Tory and never will,  Liberals are a wasted vote.  Move to France?, they have it great 🤣😂😂

Or maybe find out what Gluv's been taking and join him in his bunker?

[Montey]

Vote Corbin and sell your fire arms quick as private gun ownership will be targeted based on his supporters views. At least the Greens (the leftist of the lefts) have said as much.

if cominisom or Karl Marks doctrine works so well why have China Russia and every other country that went that way given up on it? Corbin and McDonald claim to be  socialist as that's more  acceptable.

Corbin is a firm leaver just look at what he's done or hasn't done.

[Popsbengo]

12 hours ago, Gluv said:

You could become a full on card carrying member of ukip ....just like me 🙂👍

 

Gluv 🇬🇧

Well, blow me down, I thought you were a Liberal.  What a nutter  🤣

[Popsbengo]

3 hours ago, Montey said:

Vote Corbin and sell your fire arms quick as private gun ownership will be targeted based on his supporters views. At least the Greens (the leftist of the lefts) have said as much.

if cominisom or Karl Marks doctrine works so well why have China Russia and every other country that went that way given up on it? Corbin and McDonald claim to be  socialist as that's more  acceptable.

Corbin is a firm leaver just look at what he's done or hasn't done.

You're probably correct however the country will be in such a mess it will make the current Brexit shambles look well organised !! He'll never get around to it.  I'd like to say his election will never happen but I didn't think the country was daft enough to vote leave...

[Kalahari]

"I didn't think the country was daft enough to vote leave... "

 

This sums up the problem in one line. The assumption that remainers are oh so clever and leavers are oh so stupid. Ti has been going on since the votes were counted.

The question is quite simple, do you believe in democracy or are you so thick you don't understand the concept.

See, how do you like being treated like an idiot?

David.

[Reloader54]

1 hour ago, Kalahari said:

"I didn't think the country was daft enough to vote leave... "

 

This sums up the problem in one line. The assumption that remainers are oh so clever and leavers are oh so stupid. Ti has been going on since the votes were counted.

The question is quite simple, do you believe in democracy or are you so thick you don't understand the concept.

See, how do you like being treated like an idiot?

David.

yep. agree 100% 

 

 

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, Kalahari said:

"I didn't think the country was daft enough to vote leave... "

 

This sums up the problem in one line. The assumption that remainers are oh so clever and leavers are oh so stupid. Ti has been going on since the votes were counted.

The question is quite simple, do you believe in democracy or are you so thick you don't understand the concept.

See, how do you like being treated like an idiot?

David.

For the record I don't think everyone who voted leave is a fool.  Well, I believe in representative democracy not a form of mob rule, for that is exactly what a referendum is. How can complex multilayered issues be properly presented in a society of sound bites and ranting news media?   I still contend that a goodly proportion of those that voted leave did so not out of any deep conviction or idealogical position but because they were daft enough to believe a bunch of twits putting lies on a big red bus.  I can respectfully disagree with those who made an informed judgement but why should I respect foolishness in believing self serving political lies?  I contend that the middle 10% will change their minds now they're properly informed (well, exposed to the arguments).  Ref 2 now please

[Re-Pete]

6 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

For the record I don't think everyone who voted leave is a fool.  Well, I believe in representative democracy not a form of mob rule, for that is exactly what a referendum is. How can complex multilayered issues be properly presented in a society of sound bites and ranting news media?   I still contend that a goodly proportion of those that voted leave did so not out of any deep conviction or idealogical position but because they were daft enough to believe a bunch of twits putting lies on a big red bus.  I can respectfully disagree with those who made an informed judgement but why should I respect foolishness in believing self serving political lies?  I contend that the middle 10% will change their minds now they're properly informed (well, exposed to the arguments).  Ref 2 now please

As above, but I also contend that immigration was the main issue that influenced the leave vote.................(as an example, see Gluv's reply to my rant above).

We're a mongrel nation, and always have been..............get over it.

Pete

[Reloader54]

13 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

As above, but I also contend that immigration was the main issue that influenced the leave vote.................(as an example, see Gluv's reply to my rant above).

We're a mongrel nation, and always have been..............get over it.

Pete

the stigma of losing takes a bit of shaking off.  but you'll get over that too.  eventually.

[Popsbengo]

21 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

As above, but I also contend that immigration was the main issue that influenced the leave vote.................(as an example, see Gluv's reply to my rant above).

We're a mongrel nation, and always have been..............get over it.

Pete

"immigration was the main issue"  Certainly in my local area that is so true.  A neighbour spoke to me on the morning after the vote and said words like "we can send all those Muslims back now only with more bile and expletives).  I told him he was a racist tool and that what the fork had that got to do with EU membership ?  I have some pretty strong views about the failed multicultural experiment and the  need for integration but that doesn't need to descend into racist hate.

[Popsbengo]

5 minutes ago, Reloader54 said:

the stigma of losing takes a bit of shaking off.  but you'll get over that too.  eventually.

what stigma?  that makes no sense at all.

[Artiglio]

People voted mainly on how they saw membership of the eu affecting their lives.

If you lived in an area that had had huge amounts of inward migration which meant your kids were in the minority who spoke english at school, you struggled to get a doctors appointment, there was downward pressure on wages for the work you do and you were continuously moved futher down the list for social housing because others were in greater need, then its likely they voted to leave.

If however you want a cheap cleaner or babysitter, your coffee subsidised by the state paying tax credits to workers, same with having your car washed, were relatively unaffected by stretched services, in no need of social housing, had a good safe job or run a business where an unlimited supply of cheap labour made your business viable you’d vote to stay in.

Both sides are correct in their opinion and views, which is why the country is so divided.

That our governments of the last 20 years have been unable to predict population growth and plan for it, build an economy that produces enough wealth and tax revenue, for people both to be able to afford to live well and for the state to look after those that don’t/can’t earn enough whilst at the same time providing the public services we need, has only made the divison ever more entrenched.

The beauty of the referendum was that it was a vote where everybody had an equal chance of affecting the result, as a result people were more willing to voice an opinion, the way in which that political engagement is being ignored and distorted has undermined our democracy.

Then you consider that Cameron only offered the referendum as a way of undermining the popularity of UKIP, rather than risk them gaining ever more votes ( but few mp’s ( which would have called for a review of our electoral system)). He expected another coalition under which he could have had the referendum quashed.

His referendum promise effectively stopped uk politics evolving and has maintained the two party grip on the country and removed much of the pressure for labour or the tories to listen to a good portion of the electorate.

As it all stands now, I’d cancel the whole farce.

Bung Farage 100 million to start a new party and let him succeed of fail at the ballot box.

arrange a general election for next june , along with another eu referendum to be held in 2022 legally mandated and not to be cancelled. 

Then let the parties fight it out properly and treat the electorate as adults letting them decide on the back of real information

It would also give the EU time to decide wether it wants to make any meaningful reform or not.

 

[Reloader54]

Anyone who actually believes the "leave" voters  won because of a few words on the side of a bus is  deluded at best. 

and furthermore tends to back up Kalaharis  previous post regarding losers assumptions of those remainers, who [in some cases ] assume some sort of moral superiority.

I wonder if they would be shouting so loudly if the shoe was on the other foot, ie;  leavers were trying to subvert the majority vote and put every obstacle in the way of  remaining?

[Popsbengo]

24 minutes ago, Reloader54 said:

Anyone who actually believes the "leave" voters  won because of a few words on the side of a bus is  deluded at best. 

and furthermore tends to back up Kalaharis  previous post regarding losers assumptions of those remainers, who [in some cases ] assume some sort of moral superiority.

I wonder if they would be shouting so loudly if the shoe was on the other foot, ie;  leavers were trying to subvert the majority vote and put every obstacle in the way of  remaining?

You are conflating again.  I said some voters not all voters.  I, like you have no magic insight or crystal ball to determine what "most people thought".  Factually only a small percentage  more voted out than in and that's ok of course, my argument is a minority of "swing voters" should be given an opportunity to reconsider their position.  You and I will never agree, that's cool, you're entitled to your view and I respect your right to hold a view counter to mine.  What needs resolving is do the majority still believe in Brexit?  If that's the case then I still won't like it but I will support it.  I'm just peed off by the stupidity of the way Cameron made a mess of the whole thing.  In answer to would I "subvert" the majority vote should it have gone the way of remain? Well,  I imagine I wouldn't really be thinking about it because we could have all got on with our lives.  I'm sure Nigel F. and his ilk would still be arguing for out don't you?

[Reloader54]

11 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

You are conflating again.  I said some voters not all voters.  I, like you have no magic insight or crystal ball to determine what "most people thought".  Factually only a small percentage  more voted out than in and that's ok of course, my argument is a minority of "swing voters" should be given an opportunity to reconsider their position.  You and I will never agree, that's cool, you're entitled to your view and I respect your right to hold a view counter to mine.  What needs resolving is do the majority still believe in Brexit?  If that's the case then I still won't like it but I will support it.  I'm just peed off by the stupidity of the way Cameron made a mess of the whole thing.  In answer to would I "subvert" the majority vote should it have gone the way of remain? Well,  I imagine I wouldn't really be thinking about it because we could have all got on with our lives.  I'm sure Nigel F. and his ilk would still be arguing for out don't you?

"Swing voters"???  is that like wanting to take another vote to enable all those not quite of voting age to perhaps increase the number or "remain" votes at the same time hoping all the old people who "stole your future" passed away, and in reference to the "racist tool" maybe he was trying to protect his 12year old daughter from the local asian/muslim grooming gang.

you're  correct in a couple of things though,,, Farage would continue to campaign to leave the failed project before it sucked the life from the uk and probably imploded itself. camoron completely underestimated the gen pop, and  it's gone downhill from there, quite probably contributed to in a large part by various groups attempting to reverse the vote.

I believe even if that were to happen it would take bigger balls than this pathetic bunch of eu pets have shown to possess.

and they quite likely would unleash a beast they couldn't even comprehend controlling.

and I doubt we will ever agree. 

 

[Popsbengo]

11 minutes ago, Gluv said:

So what you're saying is , let's ignore democracy until you get the result that you want? 

When do we start accepting the results of democratic votes again , I mean how will I know it's serious this time? 

History is written by the victors  so deal with it losers! 

If you don't like democracy bugger off to North Korea 🇰🇵 👋

Gluv, you are an old reactionary.  Who made it your country? I will not bugger off and  I shall remind you (at length at every opportunity) when the second referendum is held and you loose 😂🤣

[MJR]

Seems strange doesn't it that the retainer's camp seem most vocal in wanting a second vote. When we have a general election the electorate vote and a new party or coalition as the case may be is formed as a result. Do the loosing party supporters bay for a second vote? No. The vote this time went with the leave camp, like it or not that was the majority. 

The EU and the remainer's have raised many so called issues and perceived problems as to why the UK cannot leave or should strike a deal tying the UK to EU without a vote on how its run. All the politicians are running around like headless chickens with the Irish border seemingly the unresolvable issue. Really? Switzerland is geographically in the middle of Europe but not a member state of the EU, it does have trade deals and No hard borders. So what's the problem? Rees Mogg said it best, the EU is a rule driven state, happy to bend the rules when they see fit but completely inflexible when not. 

 

[Roy W]

1 hour ago, Artiglio said:

 

arrange a general election for next june , along with another eu referendum to be held in 2022 legally mandated and not to be cancelled. 

.

 

Didn't we do this in 2016? Then it was passed into law by the same self-serving hypocrites now trying to overturn it?