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Miseryguts

Twist rate

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Hi, in my naivety when I bought my 223, I went for the 12 inch twist. After a while I realise that at the range I shoot (200 to 300 yards), and the quarry I shoot at (crow and rabbit) the 50 to 55 grain bullet at 3000 to 3100 fps is rather affected by the wind. So my question is what weight bullet can I go to with this twist to mitigate crosswind effect, and, is there any point in trying to up the MV?

M (in windy Monmouthshire)

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I've used 62 grainers with success in a 1:12 out to 300 yards. why not load up a few a little heavier, like SMK 77's etc and just give them a try. They'll not be good at long range i.e. 600 yards, but "may" be o.k. for what you're doing. It's worth a try at least.

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1 hour ago, ezmobile said:

I've used 62 grainers with success in a 1:12 out to 300 yards. why not load up a few a little heavier, like SMK 77's etc and just give them a try. They'll not be good at long range i.e. 600 yards, but "may" be o.k. for what you're doing. It's worth a try at least.

No chance

They will definitely not work

Your best bet is to try a flat base 60gn bullet or something in that region

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3 hours ago, bradders said:

No chance

They will definitely not work

Your best bet is to try a flat base 60gn bullet or something in that region

Begging to differ. I HAVE used 77 smk's in a 1:12 Howa to 300 and they were not bad. Not quite match winning rounds , but were much better than I thought they were "supposed" to be. It was, after all, merely a suggestion to try it. 

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69gr scenars went sideways all over the target through my 1:12 remmy at 300. Now have 1:7.5 shooting Hornady eld 90's out to 1000.

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2 hours ago, ezmobile said:

Begging to differ. I HAVE used 77 smk's in a 1:12 Howa to 300 and they were not bad. Not quite match winning rounds , but were much better than I thought they were "supposed" to be. It was, after all, merely a suggestion to try it. 

DSC_8397.JPG

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10 hours ago, Miseryguts said:

Hi, in my naivety when I bought my 223, I went for the 12 inch twist. After a while I realise that at the range I shoot (200 to 300 yards), and the quarry I shoot at (crow and rabbit) the 50 to 55 grain bullet at 3000 to 3100 fps is rather affected by the wind. So my question is what weight bullet can I go to with this twist to mitigate crosswind effect, and, is there any point in trying to up the MV?

M (in windy Monmouthshire)

There is no magic bullet,  at the ranges you are shooting there will be little in it between any of the bullets your barrel can properly stabilise. To make a noticeable difference you need to really go to the 75/80gr class of bullet and a factory 12 twist wont do it.

Sometimes you hear of people shooting the heavy bullets from a twist that isn't fast enough yet they are accurate. It might happen occasionally but they miss a very significant and relevant point. If your barrel did manage to stabilise a 77TMK the BC would be severely compromised by it not being spun fast enough in such a slow twist barrel. The compromise on the BC (when its not fully optimised by the right twist) then puts the heavier bullet in the same ballistic window as the lighter but more optimally stabilised lighter bullets.

There isn't really an answer for what you want unless you get an 8 twist or learn to read the wind a bit better.

At 200-300yards speed is just as important as BC in dealing with wind, its in the 400yds + range when a heavier bullet with a better BC comes into its own.

 

 

 

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Your speed of 3-3100 fps is very slow for those bullet weights so a good start would be to find a node higher up , an extra 2-300 fps should be easily achieved 

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If you have no joy with the heavy Bullets, 

I would try the 53gr vmax, and get your speed up a bit.

 

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OK - plenty of food for thought. Before I lash out on bullets, I think I will run a few "what if" scenarios through Strelok

M

 

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15 hours ago, bigyin said:

Your speed of 3-3100 fps is very slow for those bullet weights so a good start would be to find a node higher up , an extra 2-300 fps should be easily achieved 

This.

I comfortably manage 3150fps using 60gr V-max flat base bullets which I shoot to 425 yds for crow.  You should be aiming closer to 3250 to 3,350fps in 50gr which will give you the edge in wind over your current load.  What powder and load are you using?

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5 hours ago, VarmLR said:

This.

I comfortably manage 3150fps using 60gr V-max flat base bullets which I shoot to 425 yds for crow.  You should be aiming closer to 3250 to 3,350fps in 50gr which will give you the edge in wind over your current load.  What powder and load are you using?

Hi, I use 52gn Amax over 25.3gn H335. This gives me around 3150fps. The other day I was playing around with a gong at 260 yards and a metal rabbit at 110 yards in a stiff breeze at around 90 DegreesThis required 4 clicks on the windage at 110 and 10 Clicks more(i.e. 14 clicks total) at 260. Strelok gave 15 clicks

14 clicks is 3.5 MoA that is around 9 inch at 260. Your standard crow is somewhat less- so chances of a miss are high!!

M (still getting his socks blown off)

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4 clicks at 110 is roughly moa which is about right for a 9 to 10mph wind full value even with a higher BC bullet.  It's the 260 figure which will start to show lower BC bullets up more.  If you can comfortably get another 150fps, this will go a little way to reducing windage allowance but the point is sort of missed.  Whatever the bullet, there will always be allowance to be dialled in for that amount of breeze.  The question as far as precision goes is whether the breeze is gusting or steady.  If steady, it doesn't matter too much what you have to dial as long as you know you can hit your mark bullet after bullet. In gusting winds it's a different story and you either dial for the mean value of wind and hope for the best or wait for a gap between gusts and take the shot (dialling less).  More velocity will help reduce the amount to be dialled.

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I second the suggestion for the 53 V-Maxs. These are the most slippery of the "lights" and are very accurate out of my 700VS. Stoke 'em up and you should be getting a far better outcome than your present load.

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Hi - Varm I take your point, and agree completely. I do need more experience of dealing with wind at the longer(for me anyway) ranges. I have no problem with a   steady wind and dialling the required windage on at various ranges (God bless Strelok). As you say, the trick is reading the gusty wind, which is quite often the case on my ground which a shooting estate laid out for high pheasant (lots of ups and downs). your suggestion of 60gn Vmax  at 3150 or 3150+ is a nice thought

- Treetop, Chris-NZ I have some 53gn Vmax somewhere, so I can load some up and try for  node at a higher MV while waiting for the 60gn to arrive.

M

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1 hour ago, Miseryguts said:

Hi - Varm I take your point, and agree completely. I do need more experience of dealing with wind at the longer(for me anyway) ranges. I have no problem with a   steady wind and dialling the required windage on at various ranges (God bless Strelok). As you say, the trick is reading the gusty wind, which is quite often the case on my ground which a shooting estate laid out for high pheasant (lots of ups and downs). your suggestion of 60gn Vmax  at 3150 or 3150+ is a nice thought

- Treetop, Chris-NZ I have some 53gn Vmax somewhere, so I can load some up and try for  node at a higher MV while waiting for the 60gn to arrive.

M

You can't read a gusty wind with any level of precision in a field situation, what makes you think you could learn this or that others reliably can?

Its one thing doing this at man size targets but at a crow its something entirely different. We can usually cope with steady winds quite reliably up to 6-8mph if the topography of our ground is forgiving but if your ground is very undulating and the wind starts to gust all bets are off! 

Theres a limit to what we can realistically achieve with the rifle you have or even a faster twist barrel, a 1mph wind change is enough to miss your head on crow at 200yds, side on rabbits are a lot more forgiving. I think places like Youtube give people an unrealistic expectation of what can reliably be achieved as they usually show only the hits and not the many misses. 

Dont get me wrong, Im not trying to say you can't better what your doing but keeping it in the real world helps :)

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If you take Big Al's point that reading the gusts is a tough job, but this is just a fact of life in your shooting application, then you may have the wrong tool.

So JBM examples - if you run 75gr Amax at 2800 300y drift is 2.4 moa in 10 mph, vs 60gr Amax at 3100 of 3.7moa reducing to 3.1moa at 3500fps. Long point bullet wins even at 300y. 75gr Amax is not going to run in a 1:12.

If wind really is that big an issue then you may get better results if you improve your wind reading but also change calibre to get higher bc's and more mv (in that order) to try and half the inevitable wind errors.

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Yes...this was the point I was trying to make.  Looking for a bullet to cure all ills where wind gusts are concerned is not a panacea to better shooting.  In such circumstances, you either wrap up for the day (or don't go out at all) or get closer to your quarry.

Running a 1/12 .223 and expecting precision in even moderate gusts at 200 to 300 yds is I am afraid on a hiding to nothing irrespective of who is behind the trigger.  You have to either considerably up MVs or look to a more suitable calibre or twist rate.  Fine for plinking, but really a wing and a prayer where winds blow inconsistently much above 6 or 7mph full value.  On a still day, a good (honest) shot with a .223 running 53 Amax would be doing very well to shoot inside of 1.5 inches at 200yds (consistently) and most will be looking closer to 3 inches (not talking "3 shot groups" here which are not a reliable indicator).  When you're out shooting lots of rabbits and want most shots to count at these distances, you have a little leeway and perhaps putting everything inside of 3 inches will do the trick.  On crow,  you'd probably want 2 inches max at 200 yds, but would be aiming for a half moa load for such small targets to allow for any inconsistencies of technique (never mind the load combo).

As said above, too many you-tube hero vids of folk turning crows into pillow fights at 500 yards.  When you stop to think of the accuracy needed to do this every time, then no one is going to convince me that they can shoot, in field conditions 1/4moa reliably, every shot, and for many, not even moa reliably come to that at 500 yds.  A lot of those shots involve luck or are playing the numbers game.

I think Miseryguts, your best bet is to be realistic about the ranges and conditions, and place yourself somewhere handy to where you know you can achieve reliable hits with most shots;  up your MVs, and get a lot of trigger time in.  A lot of attention needs to be paid to load development when you're into small targets as wind to one side, ES of say 30 (average for many reloaders who don't especially take a lot of care) I'd hazard a guess is the difference between a hit and a complete miss on a rabbit sized target at 400 to 500 yds, but less of an issue at 200 to 300.

I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say whilst I get 1000's of rounds off each year, most of which are at a range, what I can shoot at a target with a dedicated set up doesn't translate to what I can shoot in the field.   When it comes to crows, squirrels and rabbits which all have a nasty habit of moving and not keeping still for me, I want to be sure of half moa, so my ranges are altered accordingly.  I limit my distances to around 400 yards max on vermin, but most shots taken between 150 and 300 yards and using loads which have taken many 100's of bullets to develop that on a good day translate to under half moa.  

You can only optimise what you have and be realistic about distances and conditions. 

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1 hour ago, VarmLR said:

Yes...this was the point I was trying to make.  Looking for a bullet to cure all ills where wind gusts are concerned is not a panacea to better shooting.  In such circumstances, you either wrap up for the day (or don't go out at all) or get closer to your quarry.

Running a 1/12 .223 and expecting precision in even moderate gusts at 200 to 300 yds is I am afraid on a hiding to nothing irrespective of who is behind the trigger.  You have to either considerably up MVs or look to a more suitable calibre or twist rate.  Fine for plinking, but really a wing and a prayer where winds blow inconsistently much above 6 or 7mph full value.  On a still day, a good (honest) shot with a .223 running 53 Amax would be doing very well to shoot inside of 1.5 inches at 200yds (consistently) and most will be looking closer to 3 inches (not talking "3 shot groups" here which are not a reliable indicator).  When you're out shooting lots of rabbits and want most shots to count at these distances, you have a little leeway and perhaps putting everything inside of 3 inches will do the trick.  On crow,  you'd probably want 2 inches max at 200 yds, but would be aiming for a half moa load for such small targets to allow for any inconsistencies of technique (never mind the load combo).

As said above, too many you-tube hero vids of folk turning crows into pillow fights at 500 yards.  When you stop to think of the accuracy needed to do this every time, then no one is going to convince me that they can shoot, in field conditions 1/4moa reliably, every shot, and for many, not even moa reliably come to that at 500 yds.  A lot of those shots involve luck or are playing the numbers game.

I think Miseryguts, your best bet is to be realistic about the ranges and conditions, and place yourself somewhere handy to where you know you can achieve reliable hits with most shots;  up your MVs, and get a lot of trigger time in.  A lot of attention needs to be paid to load development when you're into small targets as wind to one side, ES of say 30 (average for many reloaders who don't especially take a lot of care) I'd hazard a guess is the difference between a hit and a complete miss on a rabbit sized target at 400 to 500 yds, but less of an issue at 200 to 300.

I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say whilst I get 1000's of rounds off each year, most of which are at a range, what I can shoot at a target with a dedicated set up doesn't translate to what I can shoot in the field.   When it comes to crows, squirrels and rabbits which all have a nasty habit of moving and not keeping still for me, I want to be sure of half moa, so my ranges are altered accordingly.  I limit my distances to around 400 yards max on vermin, but most shots taken between 150 and 300 yards and using loads which have taken many 100's of bullets to develop that on a good day translate to under half moa.  

You can only optimise what you have and be realistic about distances and conditions. 

This.

I shoot prairiedogs on open, wind swept grounds and even a 4-5 mph breeze will need correction at 300. YOu just need to learn our load and how it performs in the wind. No 223-launched bullet will save you from being wind-blown at longer ranges.  FWIW, i shot 50 and 55 grain bullets out to 350 for years from a 1-12" without difficulty. I still have a slow twist CZ but have otherwise gone to 1-10 and 1-8" twists -the latter seeming to be the standard for many factory rifles these days.~Andrew

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