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Chris received this response from the Home office last week, and asked me to share, looks black and white now!

 

Direct Communications Unit 2 Marsham Street London SW1P 4DF 
Tel: 020 7035 4848 Fax: 020 7035 4745 www.homeoffice.gov.uk 
Mr Chris Stevenson 
 
Reference: TRO/0007235/18           11 June 2018 
 
 
Dear Mr Stevenson 
 
Thank you for your letter of 22 May to Minister Hurd about the Government’s intention to ban certain large calibre rifles.  Your letter has been passed to the Firearms Policy Team and I have been asked to reply. 
 
As you are aware, the Government announced plans on 8 April to introduce new legislative measures in an Offensive Weapons Bill as part of a strategy for tackling the recent  increases in the levels of serious violence.  A link to the strategy is attached: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/serious-violence-strategy. 
 
The case for banning high muzzle energy rifles is based on the risk that that these types of firearms could cause significant loss of life if they were to get into the hands of a terrorist or a person intent on causing a major public shooting.  They can shoot over long distances, are powerful enough to cause significant damage and any incident would be uniquely difficult for the police to control.  The information provided by your Association and through the British Shooting Sports Council about the legitimate use of .50 calibre target rifles, the ammunition used and the possibility of putting in place additional safety measures were all carefully considered but the risk remains that they could be stolen from current owners or otherwise acquired by those intent on committing harm.  There was a case of one of these firearms being stolen – fortunately it was quickly recovered.  
 
The Government recognises that the vast majority of people in lawful possession of firearms use them responsibly.  However, the Government has a clear duty to protect the public which is why it was decided that these particular types of firearm should be more strictly controlled.  
 
I understand that a meeting is currently being planned for 13 April at 4pm with representatives of BASC and the BSSC to discuss how any legislative changes  are best defined to avoid any unintended consequences.  
 
The Government will be publishing a summary of the responses to the consultation shortly. 
 
Yours sincerely 
 
 
M Young Tackling Crime UnitEmail: Public.Enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk 
 
 ! 

 

 

 

 

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So basically they are using the same flawed logic applied to hand guns and look where that got us, more hand gun crime than before the ban.

Just shows no matter how much impircal evidence you present them they will do as they please.

I hope they start banning high power cars and strong alcohol at the same time, it’s as stupid as this ban but at least it would save more lives than this ban.

 

 

 

 

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If we lose .50 cals will we also lose some ranges the FCSA puts on for members ?

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I would think those same ranges could still be used for other calibre firearms.

Ah well, have to see how far we can push .338 or will they ban those when they realise how far you can effectively use them.

 

 

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The nonsense of Nick Hurd's position is that if there is a clear risk to the public etc etc the Govt needs 'action this day' not legislation about a year after they first talked about it.  If the risk is real they need to engage with owners of these rifles NOW.  This they are not doing so there is no realistic risk, just agenda.

 

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The main problem we have in the country and most others is the drug problem.this will cause way more deaths.what gets done about it NOTHING.......!

Too many crooked people out the getting back handers to look the other way.

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19 hours ago, Vortex said:

I would think those same ranges could still be used for other calibre firearms.

Ah well, have to see how far we can push .338 or will they ban those when they realise how far you can effectively use them.

 

 

We seem to have lost some ranges whilst the consultation has been going on so just curious if they now come back or not. 

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Details announced today,

At the bottom of this HO page:

"it prohibits high energy and rapid firing rifles and a device known as a “bump stock” which increases the rate of fire of rifles and provides for compensation of owners."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-introduces-new-offensive-weapons-bill-to-tackle-serious-violence

And this :

Prohibition of certain firearms:

Legislative measures will amend section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 to include "any rifle from which a shot, bullet or other missile, with kinetic energy of more than 13,600 joules at the muzzle of the weapon, can be discharged;" and "any rifle with a chamber from which empty cartridge cases are extracted using- (i) energy from propellant gas, or (ii) energy imparted to a spring or other energy storage device by propellant gas, other than a weapon which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;"

The purpose of firearms legislation is to reduce the risk that firearms can be used in criminal activity. Those working within law enforcement have raised concern that the weapons, to be inserted under section 5, have the potential to cause significant damage if they were to get into the hands of terrorists, criminals or an individual seeking to commit a major shooting atrocity.


Following the public consultation, concern was raised on the potential impact that banning rapid firing rifles such as the VZ58 Manually Actuated Release System (MARS) rifle could have on disabled shooters. Respondents outlined that some disabled shooters rely of this weapon to participate in the activity of shooting and that the banning of this particular firearm could have some impact on their ability to do so. However, no evidence was produced on how or why they would adversely effect disabled shooters, for example, that these are the only types of weapons they can use, nor what forms of disability would rely on this weapon. Therefore we do not anticipate any differential impact from this proposal.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/717685/Policy_Equality_Statement.pdf

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Sad really,  the HO do not wish to distinguish between a firearm and a weapon ( the rhetoric says it all). Also “bump stock” ... on what a 22 rimfire.?  Would like to see how the HO can turn a bolt action rifle into full -auto capability with a stock. Anything semi auto is long gone.

13,600 Joules. I thought 50bmg was around 12k joules or rather that was what I was around in my AW50. Had a look at Hornady website 13,241 Joules from a 24” barrel.

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Well then as long as you keep under 13,600 j then can’t you continue to use the .50.

would it get .408 cheytec etc. 

 

 

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This should be made THE HOT TOPIC on the whole forum. It's outrageous that the UK government has a consultation and then just does what it wants anyway.

As Chanonry said above "You can apply that reasoning to most firearms". So, in a few decades all firearms will be on Section 5.

I hope you're all writing to your MPs.

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1 hour ago, Vortex said:

Well then as long as you keep under 13,600 j then can’t you continue to use the .50.

would it get .408 cheytec etc. 

 

 

As I read it ,it covers any firearm from which a projectile CAN be discharged in excess of  13,600 joules. So running lighter loads won’t bypass the proposal.

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Formal introduction – no debate on the Bill

First reading is the first stage of a Bill’s passage through the House of Commons - usually a formality, it takes place without debate.

First reading of a Bill can take place at any time in a parliamentary session.

What happens at first reading?

The short title of the Bill is read out and is followed by an order for the Bill to be printed.

What happens after first reading?

The Bill is published as a House of Commons paper for the first time.

The next stage is second reading, the first opportunity for MPs to debate the general principles and themes of the Bill.

Debate on general principles of the Bill

Second reading is the first opportunity for MPs to debate the main principles of the Bill.

It usually takes place no sooner than two weekends after first reading.

What happens at second reading?

The Government minister, spokesperson or MP responsible for the Bill opens the second reading debate.

The official Opposition spokesperson responds with their views on the Bill.

The debate continues with other Opposition parties and backbench MPs giving their opinions.

At the end of the debate, the Commons decides whether the Bill should be given its second reading by voting, meaning it can proceed to the next stage.

It is possible for a Bill to have a second reading with no debate - as long as MPs agree to its progress.

What happens after second reading?

Once second reading is complete the Bill proceeds to committee stage - where each clause (part) and any amendments (proposals for change) to the Bill may be debated.

Line by line examination of the Bill

Committee stage is where detailed examination of the Bill takes place. It usually starts within a couple of weeks of a Bill’s second reading, although this is not guaranteed.

Government Bills are usually formally timetabled after they have received a second reading.

What happens at committee stage?

Most Bills are dealt with in a Public Bill Committee.

If the Bill starts in the Commons the committee is able to take evidence from experts and interest groups from outside Parliament.

Amendments (proposals for change) for discussion are selected by the chairman of the committee and only members of the committee can vote on amendments during committee stage.

Amendments proposed by MPs to the Bill will be published daily and reprinted as a marshalled list of amendments for each day the committee discusses the Bill.

Every clause in the Bill is agreed to, changed or removed from the Bill, although this may happen (particularly under a programme order) without debate.

A minority of Bills are dealt with by a Committee of the whole House (takes place on the floor of the House of Commons), with every MP able to take part. The selection and grouping of amendments in a Committee of the whole House is decided by the Chairman of Ways and Means (Deputy Speaker).

Bills fast tracked through the House of Commons will receive less consideration.  Consolidated Fund Bills do not have a committee stage at all.

What happens after committee stage?

If the Bill has been amended the Bill is reprinted before its next stage.

Once committee stage is finished, the Bill returns to the floor of the House of Commons for its report stage, where the amended Bill can be debated and further amendments proposed.

Chance for the whole House to discuss and amend the Bill

 

Report stage gives MPs an opportunity, on the floor of the House, to consider further amendments (proposals for change) to a Bill which has been examined in committee.

There is no set time period between the end of committee stage and the start of the report stage.

What happens at report stage?

All MPs may speak and vote - for lengthy or complex Bills the debates may be spread over several days.

All MPs can suggest amendments to the Bill or new clauses (parts) they think should be added.

What happens after report stage?

Report stage is normally followed immediately by debate on the Bill's third reading.

Opportunity for final debate on the Bill

Third reading is the final chance for the Commons to debate the contents of a Bill. It usually takes place immediately after report stage as the next item of business on the same day.

What happens at third reading?

Debate on the Bill is usually short, and limited to what is actually in the Bill, rather than, as at second reading, what might have been included.

Amendments (proposals for change) cannot be made to a Bill at third reading in the Commons.

At the end of the debate, the House decides (votes on) whether to approve the third reading of the Bill.

What happens after third reading?

If the Bill started in the Commons it goes to the House of Lords for its first reading.

If the Bill started in the Lords it returns to the House of Lords for consideration of any amendments the Commons has made.

Formal introduction - no debate on the bill

First reading is the first stage of a bill’s passage through the House of Lords - usually a formality, it takes place without debate.

First reading of a bill can take place at any time in a parliamentary session.

What happens at first reading?

The long title (indicating the content of the bill) is read out by the member of the Lords in charge of the bill.

What happens after first reading?

Once formally introduced, the bill is printed.

The next stage is second reading - the first opportunity for members of the Lords to debate the main principles and purpose of the bill.

What is second reading?

Second reading is the first opportunity for members of the Lords to debate the key principles and main purpose of a bill and to flag up any concerns or specific areas where they think amendments (changes) are needed.

Before second reading takes place

Before a second reading debate takes place, members who would like to speak add their name to a list – the ‘speakers list’.

What happens at second reading?

The government minister, spokesperson or a member of the Lords responsible for the bill opens the second reading debate.

Any member can speak during second reading – this stage can indicate those members particularly interested in a bill, or a specific aspect of it, and those who are most likely to be involved in suggesting changes at later stages.

Second reading debates usually last for a few hours but can sometimes stretch over a couple of days.

What happens after second reading?

After second reading the bill goes to committee stage – where detailed line by line examination and discussion of amendments takes place.

 

What is committee stage?

Committee stage involves detailed line by line examination of the separate parts (clauses and schedules) of a bill. Starting from the front of the bill, members work through to the end. Any member of the Lords can take part.

Usually starting about two weeks after the second reading debate, committee stage generally lasts for up to eight days, but can go on for longer.

Before committee stage takes place

Before committee stage begins, amendments (changes) are gathered together and placed in order, then published in the ‘marshalled list’. Updated lists are produced before the start of each day of committee stage.

What happens at committee stage?

During committee stage every clause of the bill has to be agreed to and votes on any amendments can take place. All suggested amendments have to be considered, if a member wishes, and members can discuss an issue for as long as they want. The government cannot restrict the subjects under discussion or impose a time limit. This is a key point of difference with procedure in the House of Commons.

What happens after committee stage?

If the bill has been amended it is reprinted with all the agreed amendments. At the end of committee stage, the bill moves to report stage for further scrutiny.

What is report stage?


Report stage gives all members of the Lords a further opportunity to examine and make amendments (changes) to a bill.
 
It usually starts 14 days after committee stage has concluded and can be spread over several days (but is generally shorter than committee stage).
 

Before report stage takes place

Before report stage begins, amendments are gathered together and placed in order, then published in the ‘marshalled list’. Updated lists are produced before the start of each day of committee stage.
 

What happens at report stage?

During report stage detailed examination of the bill continues. Any member of the Lords can take part and votes on any amendments may take place.
 

What happens after report stage?

After report stage, the bill is reprinted to include all the agreed amendments. The bill then moves to third reading, a further chance for the Lords to discuss and amend the bill as it nears conclusion.
 
If the bill is amended it is reprinted to include all the agreed amendments. The bill moves to third reading – the final chance for the Lords to amend the bill.
 

What is third reading?

Third reading in the Lords is the chance for members to ‘tidy up’ a bill, concentrating on making sure the eventual law is effective and workable – without loopholes.

Before third reading takes place

Before third reading, amendments (changes) are gathered together and placed in order, then published in the ‘marshalled list’.

What happens at third reading?

Unlike the House of Commons, amendments can be made at third reading in the House of Lords, provided the issue has not been fully considered and voted on during either committee or report stage.

Amendments at third reading are often used to clarify specific parts of the bill and to allow the government to make good any promises of changes they made at earlier stages of the passage of a bill.

What happens after third reading?

If the bill started in the Lords, it goes to the House of Commons for its first reading. The Commons reprints the bill with the Lords amendments.

If the bill began in the Commons, it is sent back after third reading in the Lords for consideration of Lords amendments, or, if there have been no amendments in the Lords, is sent to the monarch for royal assent.

  • Each House considers the other’s amendments

    When a Bill has passed through third reading in both Houses it is returned to the first House (where it started) for the second House's amendments (proposals for change) to be considered.

    Both Houses must agree on the exact wording of the Bill.

    There is no set time period between the third reading of a Bill and consideration of any Commons or Lords amendments.

    'Ping Pong'

    If the Commons makes amendments to the Bill, the Lords must consider them and either agree or disagree to the amendments or make alternative proposals.

    If the Lords disagrees with any Commons amendments, or makes alternative proposals, then the Bill is sent back to the Commons.

    A Bill may go back and forth between each House (‘Ping Pong’) until both Houses reach agreement.

    What happens after consideration of amendments?

    Once the Commons and Lords agree on the final version of the Bill, it can receive Royal Assent and become an Act of Parliament (the proposals of the Bill now become law).

    In exceptional cases, when the two Houses do not reach agreement, the Bill falls. If certain conditions are met, the Commons can use the Parliament Acts to pass the Bill, without the consent of the Lords, in the following session.

    Bill becomes an Act of Parliament

    When a Bill has completed all its parliamentary stages in both Houses, it must have Royal Assent before it can become an Act of Parliament (law).

    Royal Assent is the Monarch's agreement to make the Bill into an Act and is a formality.

    There is no set time period between the consideration of amendments to the Bill and Royal Assent – it can even be a matter of minutes after Ping Pong is complete.

    What happens at Royal Assent?

    When Royal Assent has been given to a Bill, the announcement is usually made in both Houses - at a suitable break in each House’s proceedings – by the Lord Speaker in the Lords and the Speaker in the Commons.

    At prorogation (the formal end to a parliamentary year), Black Rod interrupts the proceedings of the Commons and summons MPs to the Lords Chamber to hear the Lords Commissioners announce Royal Assent for each Bill.

    After Royal Assent

    The legislation within the Bill may commence immediately, after a set period or only after a commencement order by a Government minister.

    A commencement order is designed to bring into force the whole or part of an Act of Parliament at a date later than the date of the Royal Assent.

    If there is no commencement order, the Act will come into force from midnight at the start of the day of the Royal Assent.

    The practical implementation of an Act is the responsibility of the appropriate government department, not Parliament.

     

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My observation:

People talk about shooters being united, but on this forum everyone is focussed on the .50 cal aspect of the ban with little consideration for those that have "fast firing" plinky plonky guns, while on other forums it seems most people are focussed on "fast firing" plinky plonky guns with little consideration for those that have .50s

I believe more plinky plonky owners will be affected than .50 owners

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It will take years to go through the kangaroo court then 😁.I would imagine there is more mars rifle owners than 50 cals and the 50's far more impressive too watch.its a real shame these idiots have caused this.just a bunch of bum holes grrrrrrr

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Double bite on the dog s**t sandwich for me Mark.

My 9mm will go, and no more .50 servicing, unless I go section 5.

I knew it was coming. The government dont listen to anyone, its merely lip service, so we dont quite appear to be a police state.

They didn't listen to the pistol shooters or Foxhunters, even when half a million turned up on their doorstep.

The only way any of us will get what we want...is to emigrate.

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We should all put variations in for both firearms, there would be uproar. 

Might not change anything but hay it’s worth a try and it might get some mainstream news as get the subject talked about.

Even on not shooting forums, non shooters are saying how absurd it is, even in reference to the banning of internet knife sales.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, baldie said:

Double bite on the dog s**t sandwich for me Mark.

My 9mm will go, and no more .50 servicing, unless I go section 5.

I knew it was coming. The government dont listen to anyone, its merely lip service, so we dont quite appear to be a police state.

They didn't listen to the pistol shooters or Foxhunters, even when half a million turned up on their doorstep.

The only way any of us will get what we want...is to emigrate.

What you've got to do Dave is 'invent' a cartridge with the same boltface as the 50BMG but that is incapable of being loaded to exceed 10,000 ft.lbs.  Then you'll get to re-barrel/re-chamber the 64 50BMGs out there before the ban comes in!

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