Inconsistent Neck Tension.

[chaz]

2 hours ago, Webby said:

Don't forget our Spud 1967. He should have a lot of this in stock.

I did Webby, the only place that at least stated they had all i wanted in stock was Brownells UK. They've said i should have read the terms and conditions. But if a UK shop states they have the items you need in stock, i believed that meant in the UK shop, It makes me wonder how many sales they would get if everyone knew most, if not all of their stock probably comes from the US, once you've paid your money. I was going to ask for a refund, but having read parts of their terms i'd lose my postage money and a percentage for handling, so i'll just have to wait a few weeks. Live and learn is the lesson there for me....

[chaz]

3 hours ago, No i deer said:

There is so many different dies and types of resizing that confuses things.i just stick to fl sizing and bushing fl dies that go with my 7mm  neck turn calbres.i shot prone from 1000yds Sunday using a supershort versapod and my fingers under the butt in timed details and put 15 of my 20 shots inside 1 foot scoring rings inc 9 inside a 6 inch scoring ring so you could say I am happy with my fl sized reloads.

Now that is impressive! And certainly says a lot about FL sizing all the time.

I don't mind having the odd new 'problem' here and there,  or at least minor ones, as i enjoy the research and obviously gain more experience. 

[No i deer]

I would imagine dies are made to a standard spec to accommodate every make of brass that vary in case neck wall thickness.unless I had a custom made die all dies would probaly squash them down to around 5 to 6 thousanths smaller so leaving the expander ball on is no different than using another type of expander mandrel to do the same thing after resizing adding another process which I don' want to do.obviously the best way is to measure inside of the neck to see what tension you have.i think it was the gun pimp who said you can reduce the width/girth of the expander ball with a fine emery cloth used while die stem is span/rotated to sand expander ball down.carefully does it though.

[VarmLR]

On 19/04/2018 at 8:28 PM, chaz said:

VarmLR.  Good to hear from you. Hope things are going well with your Tikka TAC1 6.5CM. But why the silly ott emoji at the start of the post? Then some constructive advice in the middle. Then the 'Just my humble opinion'  at the end? I believe that's known as a '**** sandwich'....

I'm not known for being the sensitive type.... But i had to mention it, as it made me smile, and reminded me of some of the less than inspiring management in my last job.

Anyway, I mentioned the lack of 'different' members responses nearly 24 hours after my initial posting. And exactly the same time i got a response from a second person. That being JCS. (Thanks JCS) I also explained my reasons for having 'lots of keyboard' time. And as you may appreciate, the more advice the better. Different perspectives and the like...

However all constructive advice is much appreciated as per my original post.

Cheers

Chaz.

 

 

Because it was a lighthearted attempt at helping you. Forum posts, much like emails, can be all too easy to misconstrue, hence the silly emoticon.  I wouldn't know about the sandwich you mention, I had no pre-determined intentions other than constructive advice so I think you're reading too much into it.  Maybe as I now know you're not the sensitive type, I could have just simplified it to "stop dicking around with the FL die by pulling bits out of it and just use it the way it was intended!" LoL

Things are going very well thanks mate.  Hope you're getting lots of range/field time, circumstances permitting?

 

[VarmLR]

2 hours ago, No i deer said:

I would imagine dies are made to a standard spec to accommodate every make of brass that vary in case neck wall thickness.unless I had a custom made die all dies would probaly squash them down to around 5 to 6 thousanths smaller so leaving the expander ball on is no different than using another type of expander mandil to do the same thing after resizing adding another process which I don' want to do.obviously the best way is to measure inside of the neck to see what tension you have.i think it was the gun pimp who said you can reduce the width of the expander ball with a fine every cloth used while die stem is span/rotated to sand expander ball down.carefully does it though.

Good points.  (I think you meant "mandril" and "emery cloth"?  You must have the same sausage finger keyboard as I do!)

[No i deer]

I didn't edit my post before I posted it.these phones have there own dictionary and write what they want.yes mandrel and emery.ive corrected it now 

[baldie]

In stock, at Brownells does mean its in stock in the USA. If you click to order it, it automatically locks that item to you. No one else can get it.

Its then shipped directly to you, via customs on the docks.

Average time is around 10 days, only hold ups occur, if customs decide to check stuff here.

I order from Brownells every week, and to be honest, they are a Godsend, for parts not easily available anywhere else.

I know people moan about their carriage charge [ i forget what it is ] but its the same charge for a screw, as it is for 200lbs of gear. Order over £200 worth, and its free.

People also moan about their prices being a bit steep on certain things. However, they also forget that it includes shipping, all relevant import licensing, and UK VAT and duty.

Brownells UK doesn't hold any stock here, its simply a computer and staff, sorting it all out, and very helpful Gavin is too.

[chaz]

10 hours ago, VarmLR said:

Because it was a lighthearted attempt at helping you. Forum posts, much like emails, can be all too easy to misconstrue, hence the silly emoticon.  I wouldn't know about the sandwich you mention, I had no pre-determined intentions other than constructive advice so I think you're reading too much into it.  Maybe as I now know you're not the sensitive type, I could have just simplified it to "stop dicking around with the FL die by pulling bits out of it and just use it the way it was intended!" LoL

Things are going very well thanks mate.  Hope you're getting lots of range/field time, circumstances permitting?

 

No probs. And no offence taken.   I'm loathed to waste firing the loads I've made with such pants neck tension... 

I see the shoulder bumping, and neck tension issues as just another learning curve really. Which is still interesting, even if a pain in the butt! I'm more pissed at Brownells UK. Why call it that if your order has to come from the states!? I presume doing it the way they have must be to avoid red tape? As i have plenty of sorted brass, and due to Brownarse UK plenty of time.... I may for the time being FL size some more of my 6.5CM brass and just seat some bullets and see how the neck tension is.....

Off Topic. Have you heard of any of the Tikka TAC1 owners being issued these so called 'washers' to avoid mod strikes? I've not been contacted?

Cheers

Chaz.

[VarmLR]

Brownells AFAIK ship everything from the States Chaz and hold no UK stocks of anything so it takes a while for stock to come through but unlike another South West supplier with several depots, at least the stuff is real and not imaginary!

I'd just stick with the FL die Chaz and save your pennies for shooting.  I've no problems achieving very tight ES figures and good accuracy with budget kit.  Consistency and die set up is the key.  I always set my FL dies to bump by 1 thou by measuring a fire formed case and screwing the die in a little at a time until I achieve a 1 to 1.5 thou shoulder bump and no more.  The Lee Factory crimp set to just gently crimp the cases (set to between a quarter to a third way into available travel between no crimp and full crimp) is a really cheap and VERY effective way of uniforming neck tension.  You could leave your loaded rounds as-is, buy a cheap (£17 I think) FC die and just apply a gentle crimp to get them more uniformed rather than pull the beggars.

If you contact either GMK or Dauntsey, they'll post the washers out to you.  You need 4 of them (they need to be informed as I only received two first off).  Hope that helps.

[chaz]

5 hours ago, baldie said:

In stock, at Brownells does mean its in stock in the USA. If you click to order it, it automatically locks that item to you. No one else can get it.

Its then shipped directly to you, via customs on the docks.

Average time is around 10 days, only hold ups occur, if customs decide to check stuff here.

I order from Brownells every week, and to be honest, they are a Godsend, for parts not easily available anywhere else.

I know people moan about their carriage charge [ i forget what it is ] but its the same charge for a screw, as it is for 200lbs of gear. Order over £200 worth, and its free.

People also moan about their prices being a bit steep on certain things. However, they also forget that it includes shipping, all relevant import licensing, and UK VAT and duty.

Brownells UK doesn't hold any stock here, its simply a computer and staff, sorting it all out, and very helpful Gavin is too.

Thanks for the input.

I think you obviously get more of an overall idea how things work, when an RFD orders from them on a regular basis.

To be honest, the prices for postage aren't the worst I've seen. And the prices of items were even slightly less than other dealers, (That had the parts in stock). I presumed, at £5.99 my order would be at my place within 3 to 4 days. Obviously i wasn't aware of the fact that they have no stock at all in the UK until a few other people also had a moan like me....

I was just pissed off, as the store stated they are in the 'UK', and the items showed as 'in stock'. To me at least, it means it is actually in the UK and in UK stock. I can see how it would help an RFD like yourself, and for that part at least, I am grateful, as it helps UK RFD's. As life would be a lot more difficult without you/them.

People could also argue that i should have read the 'terms and conditions'. But when you see a so called UK shop, stating in stock, I think most people would take it at face value. Not sure sure how many shops deal this way, as I buy bits and pieces on a regular basis, and Ive only been caught out twice like this. One was Midway UK, (From memory) And the other by this firm.

As I've said, i'm genuinely glad that suit yours and other RFD needs, but i won't make that same mistake again. I would hazard a guess, most UK 'shooters' would not be happy with an estimated 21 day delivery time, when the site they visit states in big letters UK next to their name. They need to be more clear at the beginning of an order about how their system works, and not at the very end, when people are less aware, and just want to get on and pay for their items. I can not believe for one minute that the site was not made this was way with total transparency in mind. As no doubt if they had it would affect sales...

Chaz. 

[chaz]

3 hours ago, VarmLR said:

Brownells AFAIK ship everything from the States Chaz and hold no UK stocks of anything so it takes a while for stock to come through but unlike another South West supplier with several depots, at least the stuff is real and not imaginary!

I'd just stick with the FL die Chaz and save your pennies for shooting.  I've no problems achieving very tight ES figures and good accuracy with budget kit.  Consistency and die set up is the key.  I always set my FL dies to bump by 1 thou by measuring a fire formed case and screwing the die in a little at a time until I achieve a 1 to 1.5 thou shoulder bump and no more.  The Lee Factory crimp set to just gently crimp the cases (set to between a quarter to a third way into available travel between no crimp and full crimp) is a really cheap and VERY effective way of uniforming neck tension.  You could leave your loaded rounds as-is, buy a cheap (£17 I think) FC die and just apply a gentle crimp to get them more uniformed rather than pull the beggars.

If you contact either GMK or Dauntsey, they'll post the washers out to you.  You need 4 of them (they need to be informed as I only received two first off).  Hope that helps.

Cheers VarmLR.

Can i ask how you measure your cases after bumping? As for crimping, my die info states that i could set the die up so it gives me a crimp. But a Lee Factor Crimp, as you say is only a cheap item, so maybe i'll go that way. I'll do some reading up...

I'll give Dauntsey or GMK a bell. 

Cheers.

Chaz.

[GT3_richy]

To be fair to them, if you skimmed Brownells Ts & Cs before buying its clearly stated, "DELIVERY SCHEDULE - All orders are shipped from Brownells USA, we aim to achieve 5-7 working days delivery from dispatch but we ask to allow 7-10 in case of issues."

Their prices do vary from occasionally cheap, to reasonable, to very expensive. Delivery on average for me has been 12 days from day of order to day of receipt. The only company I have experience of in the UK that consistently delivers on time and has in stock what it says is in stock is CDSG. I've given up ordering from anywhere other than CDSG or Brownells at the moment (I do drive to Dauntsey on occassion too) - I'd rather pay the extra and know I'm going to get my stuff in <2 weeks, than be emailing companies 4 weeks, 6 weeks and 8 weeks later asking where my that which promotes growth and vigour is (including stuff that was allegedly in stock here) - then end up cancelling and ordering from Brownells!

[chaz]

14 hours ago, GT3_richy said:

To be fair to them, if you skimmed Brownells Ts & Cs before buying its clearly stated, "DELIVERY SCHEDULE - All orders are shipped from Brownells USA, we aim to achieve 5-7 working days delivery from dispatch but we ask to allow 7-10 in case of issues."

Their prices do vary from occasionally cheap, to reasonable, to very expensive. Delivery on average for me has been 12 days from day of order to day of receipt. The only company I have experience of in the UK that consistently delivers on time and has in stock what it says is in stock is CDSG. I've given up ordering from anywhere other than CDSG or Brownells at the moment (I do drive to Dauntsey on occassion too) - I'd rather pay the extra and know I'm going to get my stuff in <2 weeks, than be emailing companies 4 weeks, 6 weeks and 8 weeks later asking where my that which promotes growth and vigour is (including stuff that was allegedly in stock here) - then end up cancelling and ordering from Brownells!

I agree with you about the 'Brownells Ts & Cs' GT. However, I've bought from loads of UK shops, be it items for shooting and various other sporting shops. But if a shop in the UK states 'UK' on it's header, then shows it's items as 'in stock' or 'back order' yet you're really ordering items from Brownells USA, i think it's a cleverly worded/marketed, and executed con. It's also used by Chinese companies on EBay, who state 'UK items' yet they're not. You're still ordering from China, it just arrives in the UK from China, and is posted out from where it arrives in the UK. Brownells UK are just a more up market version of the same con.

Doe's everyone read the 'Ts & Cs' of 'real' Gun dealers, or 'Gun accessories' shops in the UK, for items that show as in stock, with a price? I doubt it....  Probably because 99.9% of shops stating they sell in the UK, do just that. As apposed to the Brownells UK scam.

But at least I will know to stick to my regular suppliers from now on. Even if it does mean splitting the items i want between 2 shops, or waiting for stock to arrive.

As for the time span my items were judged to arrive with me from Brownells UK (US). This was predicted by themselves in an email to me.

Thanks for the input though GT. All constructive input is appreciated, whether we agree or not. 

Chaz.

[VarmLR]

I just use a Hornady comparator Chaz and compare the reading with one from a foreformed un-sized case.  I have also removed the firing pin and tried the bolt closure method, sizing just enough where the bolt closes with hardly any resistance.  This compared favourably with 1 thou under fire formed using the comparator so now, I just leave the die to where I checked it last using the comparator.

[chaz]

Cheers varm. I shall do that. I.ll do my Tikka T3 .223 just after i.ve posted this. I hate using my phone for forums... I.m currently struggling as my laptop gets a lot of use when mobility is a problem.... but Ive just sent my laptop back for repair as ive been using it loads with minor faults over the last 4 years, but both hinges have now broke! It almost fell in half! Lol. But only after probably thousands of opening and closing. I.m having to use the wifes laptop that looks similar to a zx spectrum! ? But better than a fone!...

[VarmLR]

41 minutes ago, chaz said:

Cheers varm. I shall do that. I.ll do my Tikka T3 .223 just after i.ve posted this. I hate using my phone for forums... I.m currently struggling as my laptop gets a lot of use when mobility is a problem.... but Ive just sent my laptop back for repair as ive been using it loads with minor faults over the last 4 years, but both hinges have now broke! It almost fell in half! Lol. But only after probably thousands of opening and closing. I.m having to use the wifes laptop that looks similar to a zx spectrum! ? But better than a fone!...

Macbook Pro is your friend...those things are bomb-proof!  (well, amost)

[Hobbit]

I have had a similar problem with redding bushing neck dies - nothing outrageous - 4-5 though run out in some cases and variations up from zero run out.

I have to be honest and say that i look back on my old lee dies and crimps as being very good performance for the price as a few people have pointed out

I guess the issues with the neck bushings are, as catch22 says, you push the inconsistencies inside. So I am interested in getting an expander madrel - I have them by K&M but these are at the calibre so there is no neck tension

can anyone suggest where I can get sub calibre mandrels so I can get appropriate neck tension on a seated bullet??

Thank you 

[Catch-22]

16 minutes ago, Hobbit said:

I have had a similar problem with redding bushing neck dies - nothing outrageous - 4-5 though run out in some cases and variations up from zero run out.

I have to be honest and say that i look back on my old lee dies and crimps as being very good performance for the price as a few people have pointed out

I guess the issues with the neck bushings are, as catch22 says, you push the inconsistencies inside. So I am interested in getting an expander madrel - I have them by K&M but these are at the calibre so there is no neck tension

can anyone suggest where I can get sub calibre mandrels so I can get appropriate neck tension on a seated bullet??

Thank you 

I can't speak for K&M mandrels but I know the calibre specific mandrels by Sinclair (for use in the Sinclair Expander Die) will leave around 0.02" neck tension if using non neck turned brass. This is with normal calibre specific mandrels, not sub calibre.

For my 6.5x47 loaded with 123g Scenars, it's just about perfect!

[baldie]

Hobbit....you shouldn't be getting 0.005" runout with redding dies. I've never found them to give more than 0.0015"

You may find the problem is the press if you are using a solid frame type such as a rockchucker.

I use a Forster co-axial.

 

 

[No i deer]

Ive never checked ammo for runout.IMHO opinion another pointless reloading exercise.

[Hobbit]

Baldie 

I have an unfashionable but effective Lee 4 hole press that gives good results with Lee dies - I'll have a play to see if the dies are concentric

The body/bump dies is fine - its the neck bushing die

No I deer - I have seen a bunch of fairly decent write ups linking run out to accuracy - especially when seating depth is not optimal or there is a long throat

Cheers all

[Chanonry]

37 minutes ago, No i deer said:

Ive never checked ammo for runout.IMHO opinion another pointless reloading exercise.

There's an experiment for you then. Batch ammo into no/low runout and the highest runout (assuming there is a meaningful variation) then shoot some groups.

I did that once with a 270 and the result were illuminating to say the least; certainly explained that 'flier'.  I suspect it was also a demonstration of the 'need' to  anneal cases but I never got that far...

[Chanonry]

2 hours ago, baldie said:

Hobbit....you shouldn't be getting 0.005" runout with redding dies. I've never found them to give more than 0.0015"

You may find the problem is the press if you are using a solid frame type such as a rockchucker.

I use a Forster co-axial.

 

 

+1 on the runout.

[Hobbit]

I've read that it is better to neck size before shoulder bump (I bump 2 thou) - is this right?

any technique with the reading competition seating dies??

[Catch-22]

1 hour ago, Hobbit said:

Baldie 

I have an unfashionable but effective Lee 4 hole press that gives good results with Lee dies - I'll have a play to see if the dies are concentric

The body/bump dies is fine - its the neck bushing die

No I deer - I have seen a bunch of fairly decent write ups linking run out to accuracy - especially when seating depth is not optimal or there is a long throat

Cheers all

Hobbit - when you place a bushing in the Redding die, do you then screw the top of the die in all the way, so the bushing is 'crushed' in there? The ideal is to back off the top a bit to allow a little room for the bushing to self-centre in the die. You should hear the bushing rattle back and forth a bit if you shake the die like a maraca. That could be your issue?!?