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Thermal Imaging - Whats any good please

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Clive Wards thermal riflescopes are most definitely not a waste of money.  His 75mm scopes (75-3 and 75-6) are far and away the best "bang for your buck" thermal riflescopes available in the UK today

Pulsar used to do a 75mm thermal riflescope - the XD75, but it has been discontinued.  Pulsar seem to concentrate on spotting and shooting  for the European market - large animals at relatively close range e.g.boar, whilst the UK market is looking for higher magnification that can be used to spot and shoot small targets at longer range e.g fox

As for a Pulsar to Canon adapter, dream on -thermal lenses are not made from glass and every thermal spotter/riflescope manufacturer has their own proprietary lens fitting.

If you buy a Pulsar Helion XP (not an XQ) then the 28mm,3 8mm and 50mm lenses are interchangeable

If you buy a Guide IR517V, then there are also a range of lenses that can be fitted.

But the lens from a Pulsar won't fit the body of the Guide and vice versa

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

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7 hours ago, phoenix said:

Clive Wards thermal riflescopes are most definitely not a waste of money.  His 75mm scopes (75-3 and 75-6) are far and away the best "bang for your buck" thermal riflescopes available in the UK today

Pulsar used to do a 75mm thermal riflescope - the XD75, but it has been discontinued.  Pulsar seem to concentrate on spotting and shooting  for the European market - large animals at relatively close range e.g.boar, whilst the UK market is looking for higher magnification that can be used to spot and shoot small targets at longer range e.g fox

As for a Pulsar to Canon adapter, dream on -thermal lenses are not made from glass and every thermal spotter/riflescope manufacturer has their own proprietary lens fitting.

If you buy a Pulsar Helion XP (not an XQ) then the 28mm,3 8mm and 50mm lenses are interchangeable

If you buy a Guide IR517V, then there are also a range of lenses that can be fitted.

But the lens from a Pulsar won't fit the body of the Guide and vice versa

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

Do you have any connection with Ward products ?

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None whatsoever. I have never purchased, been loaned or been given any thermal kit from Clive.

I bought a 75mm 640x480 scope direct from China several months before Clive started selling them, and all the other thermal kit I have (scopes and spotters) are home made using cores and lenses purchased directly from the manufacturer is China.

The fact that Clive sells the same kit as i have used for almost 3 years means that I know a bit about it and how good it is.

I have also owned a Guide thermal spotter, have extensive experience with Pulsar thermals, and a little experience with FLIR thermals so I think i have a reasonable overview of what's available and am able to give an unbiased opinion of the relevant good and bad points of the various bits of kit.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

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1 hour ago, phoenix said:

None whatsoever. I have never purchased, been loaned or been given any thermal kit from Clive.

I bought a 75mm 640x480 scope direct from China several months before Clive started selling them, and all the other thermal kit I have (scopes and spotters) are home made using cores and lenses purchased directly from the manufacturer is China.

The fact that Clive sells the same kit as i have used for almost 3 years means that I know a bit about it and how good it is.

I have also owned a Guide thermal spotter, have extensive experience with Pulsar thermals, and a little experience with FLIR thermals so I think i have a reasonable overview of what's available and am able to give an unbiased opinion of the relevant good and bad points of the various bits of kit.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

Aren't Chinese components just copies of Western products or have the Chinese developed and advanced the technology?

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The Chinese have copied the technology which was developed in the West and the sensors made in China are just as good as the mainstream commercially available stuff that's manufactured in the West.

The 2 things driving thermal sensors are pixel size and pixel count. 

Basically, just like digital cameras, the market wants more pixels so the resolution of the image is higher, and smaller pixels so that smaller (cheaper) lenses can be used and still get the same magnification - or use the same lenses with smaller sensors and get more magnification.  Bear in mind that the lenses in thermal imagers are not made of glass, because the wavelengths of heat coming from humans and animals are blocked by glass.  The most common lens material is germanium, which has to be melted, then grown into large single crystals, sliced  into thicknesses suitable for lenses and then machined using a diamond tip to get the shape of the lens.  Given that the raw material being melted costs over £800 per Kg, then it's obvious that lens cost is a major factor in the overall price of a thermal spotter or scope.  As an example, going from a 38mm lens to a 50mm lens on a Pulsar Helion adds £370 to the price of the instrument

At present, the most common sensors are 17 micron with 384x288 being the most economic.  That's what you'll find in the Pulsar Helion and Trail XQ models and the Ward 50-3 and 75-3 thermal scopes.

Next up are 17 micron sensors with 640x480 pixels. - those are found in the Pulsar Helion and Trail XP models and the Ward 75-6 thermal riflescope.  There's a big jump in price between 384x288 and 640x480 - typically £1k

Top of the pile at present are 12 micron sensors with 640x512 pixels - FLIR and BAE systems make them and I'm not aware of any Chinese suppliers of that type of sensor at present.  I have no doubt that the Chinese will be making 12 micron sensors before long.

Over a period of time I have purchased both 384x288 and 640x480 17 micron sensors and lenses directly from Sun Creative in China, and not had any problems with performance or service.  I actually damaged 2 sensors by making a stupid wiring error so that they would not produce a video signals.  I sent them back, truthfully telling them what I had done and offering to pay for any repairs that might be possible.  They repaired both free of charge.

 

Cheers

 

bruce

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So the unattainable ward is stil top of the pile?

not a lot of good if it's still showing 10 days on his site the blokes a time waster!

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Buy a Pulsar if you have an issue with NVS/Clive, you'll probably get one next day from the UK, job done. It just wont be as good as a WT75.

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7 hours ago, phoenix said:

The Chinese have copied the technology which was developed in the West and the sensors made in China are just as good as the mainstream commercially available stuff that's manufactured in the West.

The 2 things driving thermal sensors are pixel size and pixel count. 

Basically, just like digital cameras, the market wants more pixels so the resolution of the image is higher, and smaller pixels so that smaller (cheaper) lenses can be used and still get the same magnification - or use the same lenses with smaller sensors and get more magnification.  Bear in mind that the lenses in thermal imagers are not made of glass, because the wavelengths of heat coming from humans and animals are blocked by glass.  The most common lens material is germanium, which has to be melted, then grown into large single crystals, sliced  into thicknesses suitable for lenses and then machined using a diamond tip to get the shape of the lens.  Given that the raw material being melted costs over £800 per Kg, then it's obvious that lens cost is a major factor in the overall price of a thermal spotter or scope.  As an example, going from a 38mm lens to a 50mm lens on a Pulsar Helion adds £370 to the price of the instrument

At present, the most common sensors are 17 micron with 384x288 being the most economic.  That's what you'll find in the Pulsar Helion and Trail XQ models and the Ward 50-3 and 75-3 thermal scopes.

Next up are 17 micron sensors with 640x480 pixels. - those are found in the Pulsar Helion and Trail XP models and the Ward 75-6 thermal riflescope.  There's a big jump in price between 384x288 and 640x480 - typically £1k

Top of the pile at present are 12 micron sensors with 640x512 pixels - FLIR and BAE systems make them and I'm not aware of any Chinese suppliers of that type of sensor at present.  I have no doubt that the Chinese will be making 12 micron sensors before long.

Over a period of time I have purchased both 384x288 and 640x480 17 micron sensors and lenses directly from Sun Creative in China, and not had any problems with performance or service.  I actually damaged 2 sensors by making a stupid wiring error so that they would not produce a video signals.  I sent them back, truthfully telling them what I had done and offering to pay for any repairs that might be possible.  They repaired both free of charge.

 

Cheers

 

bruce

Thanks for that.

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Montey , Have you used a Dragonfly with your Drone  ?  I'm not saying It's the only IR that doesn't seem to get a response from the Fox but I've not had any react to it . Other IR's like the Ward N1000 which i like because It's so compact spooks them everytime .

Just a thought before you splash thousands

OSOK

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Hi All,

Just a little clarification. The focal plane arrays we use in the WT1 are manufactured by Ulis in France.

The WT1 are showing at 10 working days delivery because that is the usual delivery time once an order is received.

Unfortunately due to our requirements on specification it's hard to keep up with demand so we are playing catch up all the time now.

In terms of what's good...I can and do use anything available on the market. The scope I used to use was almost £15,000 to get what I feel is personally the required spec for a proper foxing thermal rifle scope. We then went on to specify and get this manufactured at a much better price point which is why the WT1 75-3 is the choice now and top of the pile in terms of system resolution, magnification and image quality.

We certainly do know all about R&D, design and indeed service. We did have a very small (2-3 units) problem with some early WT1 scopes with a manufacturing fault in the OLED display. All of these were repaired at PCB component level in house, two of which while the customers waited and they didn't even lose zero on their rifles.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Clive

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Never ever buy a Guide IR517, they are just not reliable, I should know I have had 4 and all have gone back with faults.

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I have not tried any other IR but the NM800 or though I will now look at this as an option.Scot country are showing a lazer that's £500 it's meant to be invisible!

 

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I keep falling for the same line ...  you would think I'd have learned by now    ' The most powerful IR yet '    I could have IR door stops everywhere ?

I keep coming back to the Dragonfly

OSOK

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Reply to Clive ward

i persanly have found it difficult to do business with you when I phone you I get an answer service and on the one account you have spoken to me I was convinced to purchase from you how ever my repeated attempts at inquiries as to when your thermal scopes will be available have never been answered!

If I'm going to spend upwards of £4000 I want too discuss the deal not just ad to basket on a web site.

 

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Since you're in Kent, and Clive's business is in Ashford, why don't you drop in to his place and speak to him about over a cup of coffee?

I know that some of the guys on the UKNV forum regularly do that.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

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 The first reason I haven't dropped in it clearly says on his website not to the second reason is that I'm very busy running seven companies successfully time is more important to me than money should I have a wasted trip to find no one there I would be me losing half a day.

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Hi Richard,

Sorry I'm a bit confused at this.

I've had to check back and the last we spoke of it was in an e-mail when you were going to get back to me to let me know when you were free to come over and have a look at the WT1 75-3 and that was in late 2016.

I also upon checking further have a log of a single phone call into the office in March of this year. My apologies if I didn't get back to you on that occasion, but we are extremely busy.

Please do drop me an e-mail to come and have a look at the units. It would be good to see you.

 

Cheers

 

 

Clive

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Hi guys

A friend has 2 of the wt thermals the 75-3 and the  35-3   and i also have the 35-3 you really need to see these scopes in action to rwalise how good they are, with the 75-3 ,with the 75-3 on max mag you can put the dot insidw a rabbits head at 300 lazered meters no problem the pic as expexted at that mag is a little pixelated what you get is a great picture ,you dont need to worry about the unit recalibrating when.your ab to take a shot,as they are shutterless so you have a completely uninterupted view if anyone is serious about buying 1, i can arrange a viewing if you can get down to worcestershire, and we can.sort out a mutual time between myself the farmer friend with the big thermal and yourself

I have no connection with clive apart from myself and my farmer friend being satisfied customers ,my farmer friend who is 76, was struggling to find the foxes with normal nv (a doubled photon) it transformed his foxing and enjoyment!!  He regulary takes foxes easily to juat over 300m ,He has his bolted on a 22-250 and ive also used it on a 300 win mag no problem whatsover with full house 200g loads

So much so he bought the smaller 35-3 also for his 22. He had a slight problem that turned out to be a battery wire!! Clive had the unit collected by courier and returned by courier! Free of charge and the turn around time was ab 5 days,so a great unit and a great aftersales service

Rgds steve

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As you have been  gracious enough to invite me to email you to arrange a date I will indeed be sending you a private message on here and an email with my contact details again I look forward to hearing from you Clive

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 I've just filled out the contact form on your website however there doesn't seem to be the facility to send a private message on here.

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I have an XP50 trail scope for sale if any use? 6 months old, original box and paperwork, good condition as works well. Looking for £3550 posted, RRP is around £4,100, so a good saving and still covered by Pulsars warranty. Can email photo's, it's also advertised on Guntrader and Gunstar for £3650

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 I'm pleased to say I met up with Clive Ward today and I've ordered one of his  thermal rifle scopes. 

The  scope  I looked through today  was very impressive  compact and lightweight.

 Many thanks to Clive for his time and for tea!

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42 minutes ago, Montey said:

 I'm pleased to say I met up with Clive Ward today and I've ordered one of his  thermal rifle scopes. 

The  scope  I looked through today  was very impressive  compact and lightweight.

 Many thanks to Clive for his time and for tea!

Well done!

Glad you managed to sort things out.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

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Phoenix, do you have any opinion on the Flir BREACH PTQ 136 please. I played with  it at the IWA but that is all.

64E8DA63-8603-4871-809F-EB1363B638A0.jpeg

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According to the specs I've seen, it has a 320x256  12 micron core and a 9mm focal length lens.

That gives it a magnification of x1 and a wide field of view of 24 x 19 degrees

Refresh rate is either 30Hz or 60Hz

That makes it's performance roughly equivalent to the now discontinued Pulsar XQ19

The price for the FLIR is £2325 (which is significantly more than you'll pay for a Helion XQ38)

Th FLIR does appear to be a small, neat unit with a low magnification and wide field of view which could make it suitable for woodland stalking.  Not much good for detecting foxes at long range though.

Detection range for a roe deer size target would be around 460 metres.

Oh, and battery life is only 90 minutes (single CR123a)

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

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