closed ticket

[ammo]

Looking for some advice please.

I have a closed ticket entitling me to shoot on several permissions, that have been inspected and cleared,

but have been invited to shoot on land, not cleared by my FAO, but has been passed for my specific calibre.

Do I need to inform my FAO before  shooting ?

 

[gunner]

I dont think you do as your shooting as a guest , and is cleared for the caliber . BUT id still phone in and ask just in case matey . Your licensing dep may not be the same so worth checking . Atb 

[ammo]

Thanks for the advice, will do

[Moorlander]

How long have you had your FAC ? more than a couple of years and no incidents you could push for an open one , what calibres do you have ? most forces give an open ticket straight off for any rimfire, also talk to BASC if you get no sense off Firearms Admin.

[Dalua]

It depends what it actually says on your FAC.

[ammo]

Had my ticket for just over two years, with no issues.

calibres are 1.7 HMR .22 LR and recently .223, also have a section 1

My license states any land deemed suitable, Staffordshire police force.

[Kevgun]

i had this very same problem, and asked for advise from my Firearms dept and they said i would need to fill out a permission slip send it to them, then they would check if the land is cleared, then i could shoot on it and not before. that was Hampshire, However i decided that it was limiting my shooting because i was always being invited to go out but couldn't because of the condition on my licence, so i wrote to the Firearms dept stating my case with 2 accompanying letters from gamekeepers saying that i carried out a valuable free service for them and said i was a safe and competent shot and could see no reason why my licence shouldn't have the conditions lifted. My FLO came to see me, short chat about safety then granted me an "Open ticket" if you don't try you'll never find out.

[Dalua]

5 hours ago, ammo said:

Had my ticket for just over two years, with no issues.

calibres are 1.7 HMR .22 LR and recently .223, also have a section 1

My license states any land deemed suitable, Staffordshire police force.

As I said, it depends what it actually says on your FAC. Without knowing that, one can't really comment.

[ammo]

the 223 rifle, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting fox,

and any other lawful quarry on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the

area where land is situated over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot

and for zeroing on land/ranges

[Dalua]

44 minutes ago, ammo said:

the 223 rifle, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting fox,

and any other lawful quarry on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the

area where land is situated over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot

and for zeroing on land/ranges

Based on that,  as long as you've got lawful permission to shoot over the land, and the land has indeed been 'cleared' by the police of that area for your calibre, then it looks to me as though you're good to go without having to make any further enquiries.

As has been pointed out, it might be worth asking about the removal of the territorial restriction anyway.

[ammo]

Thanks for everyones input

much appreciated

[snakeman]

6 hours ago, Kevgun said:

i had this very same problem, and asked for advise from my Firearms dept and they said i would need to fill out a permission slip send it to them, then they would check if the land is cleared, then i could shoot on it and not before. that was Hampshire, However i decided that it was limiting my shooting because i was always being invited to go out but couldn't because of the condition on my licence, so i wrote to the Firearms dept stating my case with 2 accompanying letters from gamekeepers saying that i carried out a valuable free service for them and said i was a safe and competent shot and could see no reason why my licence shouldn't have the conditions lifted. My FLO came to see me, short chat about safety then granted me an "Open ticket" if you don't try you'll never find out.

+ 1

You would be the holder of what is loosely called a 'semi-open' certificate. You say the land has already been cleared by the locale Firearms Department - this would mean that Department has deemed that land safe for your intended calibre, but not for you personally.

Obtain a signed slip from the landowner/shooting rights owner granting you permission to shoot on the specified land, the date and times you will be out with your rifle and a courtesy telephone call to your Firearms Dept and another one to the locale Firearms Department of the the land that is under their jurisdiction, requesting their authorization after advising of your intentions. This will assist in removing doubt of any illegalities and unwanted attention which you might encounter - never assume.

[snakeman]

don't know why that got 'lined' out??

[Dalua]

37 minutes ago, snakeman said:

don't know why that got 'lined' out??

Perhaps because it seems unnecessary to provide the police with all that information? Start down that route, and we'll all never hear the end of it. 'What d'you mean, you went to another farm instead without advising us - don't you have a mobile?' 'You didn't tell us you would be stopping at the garage for a pint of milk on the way home!' 'What colour lamp will you be using?' blah blah blah.

We don't actually know what it says on Kev's FAC - only what the FLD told him when he asked them a question about a problem which he says is the same as the OPs; but which perhaps isn't quite - since the OP's FAC clearly allows him to shoot on land

1) where he has lawful permission to do so and

2) that has been cleared for his calibre or, (we may assume) a 'larger' one, by the FLD of the area where the land is.

and the OP knows the land he's been invited to shoot on is 'cleared'.

Kev, on the other hand, presumably didn't know whether or not the land was cleared - so his FLD asked him to send the letter of permission (arguably not needed: the address of the land should have been adequate) so they could check whether the land was cleared - and correctly told him that until they'd confirmed it was cleared, he wouldn't be allowd to shoot there.

 

[snakeman]

My advice was offered the OP. ...It was the same advice I was given by a Firearms Dept 10yrs ago when I encountered a similar predicament. But if you know better that things have changed during the intervening years, then so be it

ATB

[Dalua]

Sorry, Snakeman - I thought you were addressing Kev, whom you were quoting.

First, I don't think there is a predicament here: it seems that the OP knows the ground is cleared, has permission to shoot there and holds  a FAC that allows him to shoot on cleared ground where he has permission.

I don't think things have changed at all in last 10 years. It remains the case that some FLDs make demands of FAC-holders over and above lawful and reasonable requirements - such as those given in your partly crossed-out paragraph. AFAIK there was not 10 years ago and is not now any need in law to provide the FLD with written permission to shoot or info on the times/dates you'll be shooting; nor to give courtesy telephone calls to your own or other FLDs with respect to intention to shoot.

If there was uncertainty over whether the land had been cleared by the relevant FLD, then a 'phone call to check that would definately be necessary - but the OP states that the land has been cleared.

It is clearly very important to stay within the law.

I think it is probably just as important assertively and politely to challenge demands from FLDs that go beyond the law, since dumb compliance with such demands is likely to make things worse for all FAC-holders in the long run.

[Kevgun]

My ticket is open and has no restrictions on it Now, where has before I had to get clearance for every new permission. 

And that’s for informing the Police when you go out!! Have you tried calling 101☹️

As far as I’m aware there is no legal requirement to inform them anyway, the only time we inform them is when we are on Pikey Patrol for the Hare coursers, which to their credit the Police turn up in good numbers.

[snakeman]

1 hour ago, Dalua said:

First, I don't think there is a predicament here: it seems that the OP knows the ground is cleared, has permission to shoot there and holds  a FAC that allows him to shoot on cleared ground where he has permission

This is where I was unclear, although be it this was10 years back.

To remove the confusion I felt back then, I telephoned the Dept and I have already stated the advice I was given. ..Back in the day I informed the authorities I had permission to shoot on land but the ground was not in my county but, was already cleared for .223cal. I was informed "that's all very well but not according to our records" so a letter of authorization was mandatory. I was also informed to advise the neighbouring authorities of my intentions. Whether this was the 'law' or not I have no idea. But remember, I was naive and wanted to cover my ass in case of any thing that could put my ticket in jeopardy. I was advised to inform of time and date I would be out with a rifle and to obtain written permission from the landowner. This was no hardship and also gave me a sense of security that should I be stopped for any reason by any authority during travelling out of county with a rifle and ammo I could provide the evidence that I was within the law. Personally, I would prefer this procedure than having the doubts and uncertainty of creating unnecessary conflicts that could have subsequently arisen.

I believe however this was all down to when I had first had my certificate and that it was permitted for target shooting only. Then 12 months or so later,  I was requested to deal with fox and thereby had the opportunity shoot over land. I had to apply to the Firearms Dept. to shoot over that land (and then the rigmarole of being be mentored blah blah) and when it was granted I was permitted to shoot over land only that was stipulated/named on my certificate (it was at this point I had the other permission to shoot out of county)... It was then a natural progression until being granted the open certificate a year later.

As I mentioned, I have absolutely no idea whether or not this is, or was, the 'law'. This is why I stated for the OP it was the 'advice' I was given, and I'm freely passing it on. Rightly or wrongly, I followed that advice and it put me at ease. I feel it might be helpful to the OP to share my personal experience of a dilemma which he too might be now experiencing. 

ATB

 

[Dalua]

Snakeman

This is clearly an area where folk come to their own conclusions - and it is undoubtedly important to know (and perhaps also to feel) that that you're doing shootingwise is lawful. I think the best way to do that is to know the law well; so that in exchanges with the FLD, one is able to tell whether what they're asking for is sensible, lawful, or both before agreeing to it. New(ish) FAC-holders are unsurprisingly apt to feel disempowered and vulnerable with respect their FLDs and the forces of the law in general, and therefore I would recommend them to be in touch with well-informed pals, or the Firearms Department of their shooting organisation, to clarify areas of uncertainly, rather than relying on their FLD alone (or, indeed, an internet forum!)

From your last post, is seems that unlike the OP's (which has a standard territorial condition), your FAC actually specified the land over which you were allowed to shoot: so I imagine your FLD wanted the written permission for the new land so that they could add that land specifically to your FAC also? If so, the situation is different from the OP's; and your FLDs request for that letter of permission was indeed necessary for them to add the ground to your more-than-ususally-restrictive territorial condition.

I don't see any naivity, other than accepting the stuff about ringing them or telling them when you'll be shooting there. The rest of what they asked for and you did makes sense in the context of your FAC conditions at the time.

The idea of shooting 'out of county' is not really a thing with a standard territorial condition: if you shoot in another police area, the land needs to be 'cleared' by the area force, and you need (as always) permission from the owner/occupier to shoot on it. You don't need to tell that force, or yours, that you're shooting there.

[Hardy]

 

Prior to getting an open licence all I ever did was email my area Firearms dept. and ask if the new land I hoped to shoot on had been assessed and if so up to what calibre. This did not need to be in their specific area but they checked with other areas if needed and I got a response back within hours telling me what the land had been passed for if at all.

No mention of a signed permission slip other than when first applying or renewing FAC, when it (singular) is mandatory.

I have never heard of a condition which states all land I could shoot on must be registered with them and would have strongly objected if it was suggested to me.