ATACR vs Razor AMG

CRUACH · February 19, 2018

I'm looking at the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 ffp milrad or Vortex Razor HD AMG 6-24X50 mrad as a cross over hunting/ long range scope

Any other suggestions?

Has anyone got any experience with these companies, vortex warranty looks good but I would rather not have to use it!

The main criteria for my purpose is ruggedness/ reliability

Thanks

Chris-NZ · February 20, 2018

You'd go a long way to find a more rugged scope than an ATAC-R. Built like the proverbial..

Danpd · February 20, 2018

Not exactly 2 comparable Scopes in terms of specification, but Nightforce hands down for my money.

Moorlander · February 20, 2018

12 minutes ago, Danpd said:

Not exactly 2 comparable Scopes in terms of specification, but Nightforce hands down for my money.

+1

Like comparing a Fiat with a Porsche (the NF is the Porsche :))

bart.hertog · February 20, 2018

These days vortex really stepped up with the vortex razor gen1, gen2 and amg. The razor gen 2 has even a better score on snipershide and more reviews than the schmidt&bender and there lifetime waranty makes vortex optics a strong brand so i dont call it a fiat but a massarati ?

CRUACH · February 20, 2018

Thanks for the replies, I know they are not directly comparable however I could work with either spec for the intended purpose.

VarmLR · February 21, 2018

Vortex is a good scope, bettered by the Gen 2 models. You may want to include the Steiner Military scopes if looking at ATCAR or Razor Gen2 scopes, as they're right up there at the top these days.

Villadave59 · February 21, 2018

Totally agree I have a Steiner M5XI 5-25 -56 fantastic scope ,on offer at optics warehouse for £1950 at the moment

BallisticsBoy · February 28, 2018

I’ve recently had the opportunity to test several high-end scopes. Due to the nature of the scopes, several different parties were involved over three days, and I was the only party common in all testing sessions. I would have loved to have been able to test all of the scopes side by side, but there were simply too many moving parts.

Testing involved observing a calibration diagram at 100yds, observing foliage/branches/printed signs at 800yds, and observing a high pasture at approx 2000yds plus. All observations were made just after mid-day in flat light.

Scopes tested included: Kahles; March; IOR; Nightforce (NXS); Schmidt & Bender; Steiner, Swarovski; and Vortex.

Testers included myself, several very experienced stalkers, a club champion and a couple of F-Class shooters.

Long story short, the Swarovski scope was the favourite out to 800yds, but beyond that the IOR Recon and the Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 jointly led the pack by quite some margin. Nightforce and Steiner suffered some very obvious yellow/purple fringing caused by chromatic aberrations (even although they were both apochromatically corrected). The March and Kahles examples that were tested both had surprisingly poor resolution and produced noticeably soft images. The Schmidt & Bender was very competent indeed, but it wasn’t quite in the same league as the IOR Recon and Vortex Razor HD Gen 2.

The discussion very quickly came down to individual preferences between the IOR and the Vortex. The IOR, like all IORs exhibited the signature amber colour casting which is caused by their multicoatings. When viewing the same tree side by side in identical conditions, the IOR had a warm summer evening look, whilst the Vortex had a crisp autumn morning feel. It was actually a mild autumn afternoon. The IORs mid-tube focus was generally felt to be inconvenient at best, and a complete pain in the arse at worst. Everybody was surprised by just how heavy the Vortex was. Nobody could categorically pick a favourite between the two, but to a man, they agreed that these two scopes wiped the floor with everything else..

There were a couple of clear take aways from the sessions. Firstly, nobody expected the Vortex Razor HD Gen 2 to perform as well as it did. I can understand that given Vortex’s ‘value driven’ background, there is a certain stigma and cyniscim associated with this brand among scope snobs - but this attitude quickly evaporated as soon as the testers looked through the scope. I lost count of the number of times I heard someone say “that’s actually quite good”. The Razor HD Gen 2 is clearly a different beast to everything that came before it. The second take away, is that whilst ‘Schott ED’ glass is still a guarantee of quality, there are other glass manufacturers out there who are producing glass that’s every bit as good. The design and engineering of the optics, is still the primary differentiator of optical clarity.

I’ve subsequently been very impressed by a higher magnification version of the PM II, and by a Swarovski X5 - and I'll probably endeavour to test one of these scopes next.. I may revisit this test if I get the chance to look through these respective scopes

Whilst I haven’t had the chance to test the Vortex Razor AMG, I am keen to do so. Running the numbers reveals that it is a relatively lightweight scope, which might suggest that it is employing lower density glass and/or less robust internals than the Razor HD Gen 2. Certainly I wouldn’t expect the drop from a 34mm to 30mm main tube, or the drop from a 56mm to 50mm objective lens, to yield such a degree of weight saving. Likewise I haven’t had a chance to test a Nightforce ATAC-R. Given that I purchase each scope with my own money (I’m not established enough to be considered an industry ‘influencer’) the ATAC-Rs asking price will probably rule out me ever testing one. If it’s anything like any of the other Nightforce scopes I have tested, I expect it will feature decent quality glass and benefit from superlative QC.

David Hancock · February 28, 2018

Dave - was it a Swaro X5 you first tested and if so what spec if you can recall. Thanks.

I want to invest in a tac scope for my 6.5 cm but there is a leap (in faith and cash) from the Delta Stryker at £1300 to a S&B or X45.

Thanks. David

VarmLR · February 28, 2018

I've been very impressed with the new Vortex Razor Gen 2 and would have bought one if it weren't for the ret which isn't one I particularly like with the centre gap. It's small enough and fine enough but I always prefered fine centre dot or cross rets. Your description Ballisticsboy is spot on. The 3lbs weight was also a tick on the minus box for me I'm afraid, but optically it was imho top tier, right up there with the very best I've ever seen. Great field of view, superb edge to edge and very, very bright.

The IOR has superb glass but that ret! I also recently tried a Steiner Military and your description again, is spot on. Whilst I was impressed with a Steiner Ranger that I recently looked at, the M5xi that I ended up buying went back the very next day and I was quite apalled at its failings, optically, so unreservedly take back a little of the Steiner recommendation made earlier, at least as far as the M5xi goes (the Rangers remain good scopes). The levels of yellow fringing (it was more than just chromatic aberration, it was the image edges actually being smeared which got worse of you placed your head just fractionally off centre) were totally unacceptable in a scope with a £2K price tag. I don't know what Steiner were thinking of releasing that model (M5xi) without addressing this as it spoiled what otherwise promised to be an excellent long range scope. My Bushnell Elite DMR was better and by some margin!

The IOR Recon (not sure about the Crusader) also showed a slight tendency to exhibit some yellow aberration if your head was moved slightly, but unlike the Steiner, it didn't smear the image edges and resolution remained good...it was more than acceptable.

I thought that the PMii, overall, remained my top pick not because it was the best in all optical areas (it wasn't) nor for its features (the one I checked out and subsequently bought is non zero stop and quite basic compared with the Razor HD) but because I felt that its total lack of chromatic aberration, its edge to edge and its ret were stand outs for me as was its simplicity of use.

Truth is that there's no clear winners at the top end and once much above £2K for a scope, you're not really buying the "next level" in optical clarity (they all sem to be much of a muchness) but pay for brand, features and build. You pays your money and takes your pick.

I've not had the chance of trying the Kahles or the Swarovski but would have liked to. The Swaro X5i was one on my "to try" list but I haven't yet had the opportunity. I have a few fellow shooting friends, one of whom has the Kahles 624i and he says the same as you Ballisticsboy...he ended up putting his up for sale. Another had the Actar but didn't find that for its price tag, it offered any better performance than a scope £1K cheaper, so sold it.

The PMii is going on my 6.5 and I'm very happy with that as the choice made event though I could have stretched to the Gen2 or the IOR, or even the Actar.

David...if you ever get over my way or shoot at Warminster, you'd be welcome to try my PMii to compare it with the Delta. I occasionally get to Bisley too..