The Mighty AK Continues as the AK-12 and 15

[Laurie]

An interesting report on The Firearm Blog about the Russian Federation's  choice of new standard infantry rifles, recommended for adoption as standard issue. As best I can see, it is the 1940s AK operating system just refined a bit more, so the fancy recoil-canceling alternatives have apparently all dropped by the wayside.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/02/13/engineering-new-kalashnikov-ak12-ak15/

The two models are in effect the same thing with the AK-12 in the standard 5.45X39mm and the 15 in the venerable 7.62X39mm, the reasons for continuing with the latter obsolete cartridge interesting in themselves.

The American commentator's comment on the lead photo's depiction of two 15s and a 12 lined up in a classic publicity shot with the AK-15s wearing what look like US EOTech sights made me smile. ('Does ITAR work well?') 

[bradders]

Not entirely sure about a couple of aspects on that report, expecially as the Russians have a dedicated suppressed rifle system that they do seem to field in substantial numbers....at least from news reports I've seen n TV

The Vintorez VSS (Special Sniper Rifle) is another variant of the AK family. Chambered in 9x39 it fires a 250gn bullet at subsonic speeds fro a basically necked up case.

The reason I read elsewhere that they produced a newer version of the 7.62 is because in some places there are still ample stocks of that ammo and they still have plenty of friend nations they supply and support

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×39mm

 

It's also worth noting that as the AR15 is now in its 7th decade of production, it still continues to be improved and is now at the point that future selection of an improved rifle will become very difficult if not impossible.

The AK and AR, both entirely different have ben the two that have stood out and are unequalled.

The SA80 was a failure, as was/is the G36, Sigs rifles have not been successful, FNC a waste, AR18 never made it, Famas is being replaced and nor have any others been adopted in large numbers.

In fact for two world famous companies who have long histories of making their own weapons systems, both FN and HK have had their best sales successes making variants of Mr Stoners finest 

[ds1]

One of my personal firearms is an AK Alfa. Ak made in Israel (left with standard AK on right). Superior quality and embargo friendly. This one is in 223 Rem but can be had in 7.62x39.

The best of breed an AK 107 (opposed piston) is still made from unobtanium here.

 

[Laurie]

On 2/15/2018 at 7:47 PM, bradders said:

It's also worth noting that as the AR15 is now in its 7th decade of production, it still continues to be improved and is now at the point that future selection of an improved rifle will become very difficult if not impossible.

The AK and AR, both entirely different have ben the two that have stood out and are unequalled.

The SA80 was a failure, as was/is the G36, Sigs rifles have not been successful, FNC a waste, AR18 never made it, Famas is being replaced and nor have any others been adopted in large numbers.

In fact for two world famous companies who have long histories of making their own weapons systems, both FN and HK have had their best sales successes making variants of Mr Stoners finest 

 

Very true! It's also of note that despite recent hand-wringing over the 5.56's alleged lack of lethality, both systems use small-calibre high velocity rounds. The Americans claim that the M855A1 'Enhanced Performance Round' meets all their infantry IW terminal ballistic requirements so new larger calibre cartridges are  not on the radar anymore.

(I wonder if that's easily said while few US soldiers and marines are directly engaged in a war right now and the whole issue will resurface if and when there is another largish scale ground combat  !)

[gunner]

Never owned an ak but by hek i love em . Id settle for a nice type 56 Chinese . Wooden fixed stock , just the job . Were we allowed semi auto id have one for plinking reactive targets nothing more . 

[bradders]

M855A1 is a fantastic round, although it was beating up the rifles for a while. That is now rectified for the most part, but the performance of the bullet has been highly impressive.

I've been lucky to shoot quite a bit of it and it exhibits "Match" like accuracy and terminal and barrier performance are so good that the USMC dropped their MK318 SOST bullet and have also gone to M855A1

 

As for .30cal, the M80A1 is lso something that has been hugely impressive

[brown dog]

Not heard of the 855a1, so just had a quick google.

This USMC verdict made me chuckle: 

 

"In testing, the Army round caused “some durability issues” for the ­Marine Corps’ M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle, Brig. Gen. Joseph Shrader, ­MARCORYSCOM’s commanding officer, told Senators in June. Even though the M855A1 reduces the IAR’s durability, the M27 is still “operationally suitable” when firing the Army rounds"

 'some durability issues'  and 'reduces the IAR's durability'  - that's career-conscious officer-speak for 'it totally fxcks the rifles'

[brown dog]

Coincidentally, I had the original minor tactics 'lessons' output from Op Corporate on my desk 2 weeks ago. I'll dig some quotes out next week, but what particularly leapt out at me - remembering that LSW was in the procurement pipeline at the time that the report was written-  was that this top-of-Army operational report went out of its way to say something along the lines of 'don't go 5.56' and, even more emphatically 'don't even think about going 5.56 and box magazine for a support weapon'..........and then we immediately bought SA80 and LSW.

It'd be lovely to think the 855a1 has been bought because it's better; but as soon as I saw the words 'green ammo' and the r&d costs (read: profiteering by someone) to drive it through; and then cross-reference that with the USMC 'rifle durability' officer-speak, I see a politically -not effect- driven procurement.

[Laurie]

11 minutes ago, brown dog said:

It'd be lovely to think the 855a1 has been bought because it's better; but as soon as I saw the words 'green ammo' and the r&d costs (read: profiteering by someone) to drive it through; and then cross-reference that with the USMC 'durability' officer-speak, I see a politically -not effect- driven procurement.

 

Yes, I'd very similar thoughts. History is littered with accounts of 'We've issued the best / most effective / most reliable / most lethal weapons ever to our troops', then it fails in serious combat.

[bradders]

M855A1 is a 2 part bullet with a steel tip (not core) and a copper body. It’s designed to be barrier blind but also yaw and fragment in a short space therefore offering more incapacitation and giving the now std issue M4 with 14.5” barrel increased combat range

The problems with it have been due to the steel tip it has had a habit of tearing up feed ramps and magazines to some extent, but also with the increased port pressure it has also been breaking guns. This has been mostly taken care of with a refining of the ammo to reduce the peak pressure, but HK who make the M27 , essentially a HK416 haven’t kept pace and it’s still breaking bolt lugs in those rifles.

The feed issue has been rectified by a redesigned USGI mag with a different feed angle, and Magpul foresaw that when they introduced their Gen 3 mag

The only issues remaining are that it’s still damaging the M249 Minimi but also the extended range of the ammo is still causing issues on some ranges due to the extended danger area (+800 Mtrs) but also he damage it causes to range targetry furniture

[brown dog]

How do the various ammo pressures compare? One thing I read mentioned that the 855a1 ain't far off 5.56 proof pressures - and anything routinely breaking bolt lugs (holy crap!!) sounds to be at that sort of level (?)

(The design workarounds you mention and the 'it's great, but breaks all existing weapon types it's fired in' soundbite sound very SA80-esque!)

[brown dog]

33 minutes ago, brown dog said:

How do the various ammo pressures compare? One thing I read mentioned that the 855a1 ain't far off 5.56 proof pressures - and anything routinely breaking bolt lugs (holy crap!!) sounds to be at that sort of level (?)

(The design workarounds you mention and the 'it's great, but breaks all existing weapon types it's fired in' soundbite sound very SA80-esque!)

An afterthought; a new ammo type that runs at proof in temperate conditions, breaks all in-service army weapons, unless substantially modified, and is yet to work in the infantry's main squad support weapon......hmm, I wonder if the engineer running this is the same chap who managed to persuade the purchasers that ACU was an effective cam?!

[VarmLR]

There's a great article on the 855A1 here which summarises the points well.

Far from being a new "Fad" bullet, it was extensively tested with only two really un-desirable issues encountered one of which was the issues with barrel durability and the other with the rifle twists used.  Previous ball ammo and tracer could be shot effectively from a 1/7 twist but the M8551A ammo needs a 1/9 to benefit from the "match like" accuracy.  Not a problem that re-equipping with slower twist barrels can't solve.

That aside, it's designed not only to offer superior penetration, but also to exhibit yaw on entry such that it can inflict lethal wound cavities from as little as 3 inches penetration.  The current ammo used in Afghanistan was found to suffer multiple drill-throughs if trajectory, angle and velocity weren't "just right", and as the average insurgent is a lot thinner than us fatties here in the west, the ammo simply failed to stop a lot of them.  It was also so-so apparently on busting windscreens or penetrating car doors from  moderate distance.  Not so the 855A1 .  The accuracy it attained even in 14 inch barrels is quite an eye opener as are the tolerances that the stuff is made from.  Looks a very promising theatre round.

The issue bradders mentioned would have me worried if I was on butts duty...the superior penetration means it chews up the steel target legs and ricochets have been found to extend beyond current safe zones, something that they'll have to address if training safety is not to be compromised. 

[bradders]

3 hours ago, brown dog said:

How do the various ammo pressures compare? One thing I read mentioned that the 855a1 ain't far off 5.56 proof pressures - and anything routinely breaking bolt lugs (holy crap!!) sounds to be at that sort of level (?)

(The design workarounds you mention and the 'it's great, but breaks all existing weapon types it's fired in' soundbite sound very SA80-esque!)

The SA80 couldn't even handle std NATO spec 5.56, and they had to change the recipe....which then saw it removed from the NATO ammo interoperability charts.

It wouldn't cycle direct impingement systems, such as found on the M16

Even to this day the C7 SFW rifles use a different recipe of ammo from Radway Green

[Breacher]

22 hours ago, gunner said:

Never owned an ak but by hek i love em . Id settle for a nice type 56 Chinese . Wooden fixed stock , just the job . Were we allowed semi auto id have one for plinking reactive targets nothing more . 

I got a chance to go through 2000 AKs captured by IDF in Palestine. I had to document them inc country of origin. I set myself the goal of test firing on full auto, one from EVERY country that ever made them - and managed it ! Even a handmade Khyber Pass special.

Funnily enough, the Type 56(2) was one of the nicer examples. Nice and tight and as good as the brand new 1968 manufacture AKs I had dealt with on a previous contract. Once upon a time, Chinese AKs were looked upon as rubbish - the later ( 2 ) models are just fine !

The absolute best was the East German milled receiver models - outstanding !

 

Oh - and I found two original type 1 AKs - the original stamped ones before they went to milled receivers before going back to stampings ( once they could do it properly ) for the AKM. That earned me a drink in the form of a shiny new Saiga that I wish I had not sold on......