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rhhudson

Action bedding

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Hi. 

A couple of questions ....

First will bedding my action /stock increase accuracy (not currently having issues just looking to get even better)

Second. Will it throw my current load out ( will I need to rework it again or just tweek) 

Third how long would it take to do

And finally how much would it cost to get it done professinally 

It' a grs laminate stock and custom rem 700 action. 

 

Thanks. 

Rhhudson

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Not an expert, but my take for what it's worth is:

1. Bedding done right should relieve any possible stress / pressure points on the action with the aim of improving accuracy potential. 

2. Possibly. If your action does have a stress point and you've developed your load to shoot well with it, by relieving the stress on the action it may change the POI because the gun is recoiling differently in the stock. 

3. Application might be an hour or so. Usually the compounds (Devcon,  Marine Tex, Loctite Hydrosol etc) take a couple of days to fully cure & harden. However there's the prep before and clean up / finish after too. Also depends on your 'smiths schedule

4. I paid about £100 to have mine done - Tikka action in a Manners stock. Flawlessly done.

HTH!

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I did my cz527 17Hornet which went from 1/4 group @100yds to all touching after i put Brass pillars and bedded the action with JBweld

Ive done two now and there both shoot very well .

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Bedding is definitely worth doing in my experience. Some rifles will see more benefit than others.

 

What I would say though, if you're going to do it, spend the time and do it right, or have someone do it right for you. Slopping some epoxy into the stock and some shoe polish on the action to stop it bonding solid and ending up with a skim bedding is largely pointless.

 

Mill it out, nice and uniform and deep as you can afford to do it. This is where the real time is spent, in prep work.

 

Other tip, if you're going to do it yourself. Leave it for its allotted cure time, then leave it for the same time again. Make 110% sure the epoxy is cured solid before you try break it free.

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My take is that bedding is part of building a rifle. What I find hard to believe is the amount of effort and money that many factory rifles companies invest in their manufacturing process but don't have five minutes to research rifle bedding,  often using the cheapest worst epoxy for a halfass bedding job.

I leaned about bedding in the heavy industry as an Engineer. The often quoted skim bedding is one technique that in many cases leads to a much better result than deep bedding. Deep bedding should be avoided if possible. It all depends on the material pairings. Epoxy bedding material often being the weakest link means the less the better... however with soft wood stock it is mostly essential to bed deep. One can do the maths on that.

As Grum mentioned one of the worst mistakes is to remove the action before the epoxy has fully cured. Wrong release agent another issue. A lot of mistakes can be avoided if the inexperienced would do a few test beddings with scrap bits to prove that release agent works, mixing ratios are ok and hardening times are correct etc.

edi

 

 

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Some good advice. It's deffo worth having done , I'd just pay the 150 odd and have piece of mind. Hopefully you'll see better consistency. But most of all I reckon itl keep its zero better thru the season's sat on a proper bed job. Especially on timber . Atb

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I don't know who is doing these jobs at £100 or £150.

They are working for nothing. They probably also are not declaring it to the tax or VAT man either.

A full bedding job takes at least a days work. Done by a professional gunsmith, expect to pay £300 inc vat.

I don't do "skim" bedding, only deep.

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A properly applied bedding job will enhance the accuracy potential and consistancy of the rifle in all conditions, removing stress from the action when torqued down into the stock.

 

With the exception of alloy chassis and PSE composites stocks(which have carbon fibre pillars) , all bedding jobs are not worth the effort without fitting steel or alloy pillars.

It takes me several days to do a bedding job, from initial prep of stock and action, machining and fitting pillars properly, applying compound and final clean up after at least 24 hr curing time.

I cant see how anyone in the trade is doing such work for £100.

Most rifle smiths charge bettween £250 - £350 for this work (myself included)

 

I have countless pictures of customers rifles brought to me with poor bedding done by some dude with a dremel and chisel that ive had to rectify.

Double the cost to the customer whos paid for the crap work intially and then paid again to have it put right.

 

Get it done right first time, use someone whos recommended or has proven experience.

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9 hours ago, ejg223 said:

I leaned about bedding in the heavy industry as an Engineer. The often quoted skim bedding is one technique that in many cases leads to a much better result than deep bedding. Deep bedding should be avoided if possible. It all depends on the material pairings. Epoxy bedding material often being the weakest link means the less the better... however with soft wood stock it is mostly essential to bed deep. One can do the maths on that.

The term 'skim bedding' is often wrongly used to describe a poor quality bedding job in relation to rifle actions, in fact it is commonly used in many types of industry as the principle method and it works perfectly. A shoddy bedding job where a few blobs of bedding compound has been squeezed between the action and the stock without any other work isn't a skim bedding job, its a bodge job, two very different things in my opinion.

I agree with you Edi that in the right circumstances a skim in the region of 1mm of the correct bedding compound can be all that is needed providing the substrate it is being applied to is suitable and the bedding compound is the correct type for thin bed use. Conversely a stock that is a bit flexible or made of a natural product needs sufficient re-enforcing and a deep bed, again of the right compound will be preferable. 

Rarely in life is anything black or white and there is often a lot of process behind a decision. Its a shame that this process could be overlooked if people think unless they see an inch of bedding in their new stock it was a cheapskate doing a bodge job. The right amount of bedding to do the job properly is all that is needed, whatever that may be.

12 hours ago, Catch-22 said:

I paid about £100 to have mine done - Tikka action in a Manners stock. Flawlessly done.

Thats a very keen price for a flawless bedding job, stay friends with that man :) - what people choose to work for is their own business but personally I couldn't run mine at a profit doing full bedding jobs for £100, there is a full days work usually split over two days and the materials are getting on for £30 before you start. Different people have different motives for doing things, if a chap likes to bed rifles and takes great pride in his work and does a proper job for £100 then good on him and you've got yourself a bargain! 

Hopefully he isn't too close to me though :D

 

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I realise that most of you think that shooting only revolves around shooting a heavy gun from a bench or something that has been chambered in some exotic wünder 6, but I have always been more interested in a different type of shooting, namely those that challenge the shooter rather than his equipment.

For many years before the adoption of the AR15, all the big American Military teams shot the M14 in XTC High-Power rifle competition.

The M14 is pretty hard recoiling as you may expect from a reasonably light .308, and with an action that is clamped into the stock by nothing more than a spring loaded trigger group and floorplate.

They (The AMU  and suchlike) with all their resources never deemed it more than necessary to skim bed the rifles. Now the rifles are pretty hard on the bedding and they never  looked any further than what they were already doing, so if it worked for them........

All their Long Range rifles are still skim bedded, but horses for courses I suppose

This is from their Facebook page. I tend to follow them because they ARE  Professionals

Screen%20Shot%202018-02-02%20at%2008.47.

 

As for the other comment....Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. John 8:7

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@bradders "I have always been more interested in a different type of shooting, namely those that challenge the shooter rather than his equipment." 

I think too many forget what shooting is really about.

 

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42 minutes ago, Big Al said:

The term 'skim bedding' is often wrongly used to describe a poor quality bedding job in relation to rifle actions, in fact it is commonly used in many types of industry as the principle method and it works perfectly. A shoddy bedding job where a few blobs of bedding compound has been squeezed between the action and the stock without any other work isn't a skim bedding job, its a bodge job, two very different things in my opinion.

I agree with you Edi that in the right circumstances a skim in the region of 1mm of the correct bedding compound can be all that is needed providing the substrate it is being applied to is suitable and the bedding compound is the correct type for thin bed use. Conversely a stock that is a bit flexible or made of a natural product needs sufficient re-enforcing and a deep bed, again of the right compound will be preferable. 

Rarely in life is anything black or white and there is often a lot of process behind a decision. Its a shame that this process could be overlooked if people think unless they see an inch of bedding in their new stock it was a cheapskate doing a bodge job. The right amount of bedding to do the job properly is all that is needed, whatever that may be.

Thats a very keen price for a flawless bedding job, stay friends with that man :) - what people choose to work for is their own business but personally I couldn't run mine at a profit doing full bedding jobs for £100, there is a full days work usually split over two days and the materials are getting on for £30 before you start. Different people have different motives for doing things, if a chap likes to bed rifles and takes great pride in his work and does a proper job for £100 then good on him and you've got yourself a bargain! 

Hopefully he isn't too close to me though :D

 

For full clarity, I paid £100 but it was part of a full build.

I had the donor action cleaned up/serviced, action milled to accept AICS mags, new barrel, stock, stock painted, bottom metal, rings, rail and all metal work cerakoted.

I'm sure if I did just ask for bedding alone, it would have cost more.

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14 hours ago, rhhudson said:

Hi. 

A couple of questions ....

First will bedding my action /stock increase accuracy (not currently having issues just looking to get even better)

Second. Will it throw my current load out ( will I need to rework it again or just tweek) 

Third how long would it take to do

And finally how much would it cost to get it done professinally 

It' a grs laminate stock and custom rem 700 action. 

 

Thanks. 

Rhhudson

Getting back to your original question.

Rifle accuracy is subjective but If you are not currently having any accuracy issues and you feel your rifle is shooting really well then bedding it will most likely not improve its accuracy to the point you kill any more critters or win any more comps, especially considering its a quality stock you already have that doesn't compress that much. If done well though bedding certainly wont make the rifle less accurate, it might just improve it a little and you also have the peace of mind of a consistent action to stock fit with repeatable positioning of the action in the stock.

Only the target will tell you if the load needs tweaking after you have had the rifle bedded.

If you sent it to a rifle builder I would expect they will turn around a bedding job in a week, maybe two but again the person you choose to do the work should be able to give you a reasonably accurate time scale before you send the rifle to them.

As for cost, see if Catch's mate is still doing them, if not then expect to pay £250 plus postage, maybe a little more depending on who you use.

 

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15 minutes ago, Moorlander said:

@bradders "I have always been more interested in a different type of shooting, namely those that challenge the shooter rather than his equipment." 

I think too many forget what shooting is really about.

 

They do....especially here

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2 minutes ago, Catch-22 said:

For full clarity, I paid £100 but it was part of a full build.

I had the donor action cleaned up/serviced, action milled to accept AICS mags, new barrel, stock, stock painted, bottom metal, rings, rail and all metal work cerakoted.

I'm sure if I did just ask for bedding alone, it would have cost more.

You dont need to clarify yourself to me Catch, as I said, what someone charges is their own business not mine. I would say however that regardless of a full build or a stand alone job it still takes me the same time and materials so your £100 price still looks a bargain :)

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Hi all. Thanks for the reply. 

A little background info. 

I am running a John Carr custom action with sassen barrel in 6.5x47. Timney elite trigger and as mentioned a grs laminate varmint stock.

I am currently getting between .2-.5moa (not yet tested at long range).

I just wondered if a profesional bedding job would bring it much better and is the cost layout worth it for my needs. 

I don't shoot comps it is used for plinking on private ground, varminting (up to 500yards) fox and occasional deer. 

If I was to have it done it would be a professional job done by a Smith so by the sounds of it I'd be looking around the £300 Mark. 

But if it is not going to greatly increase my accuracy then it is perhaps not worth doing at this stage. 

Thanks for the info any more will be greatly appreciated and if there is anyone who has gone through a similar stage that would be helpful.  

 

Rhhudson

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1 hour ago, bradders said:

They do....especially here

If one is designing rifles or parts thereof then one tries to concentrate on that. like it or like it not a rifle is one part of the success. Bedding is part of a rifle.

If one is involved in shooting instructing... well then one is constantly trying to improve methods of instructing ...

If one is the "user" and one want's to improve on level then one might need to look on all fronts. "Man and machine"

Epoxy Bedding: only used because the strength, stiffness etc. is greater than air that it replaces.  I refuse to replace a stronger material with epoxy bedding material. Softer weaker material yes. Bedding a pica rail to an action.... mill away half the action to replace with epoxy?? Pica bedding on alu/steel works perfect even with 0.1mm or less epoxy and there is a benefit.... huge benefit.

I know bedding is an expensive task as we do several hundred bedding jobs a year.

edi

 

 

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17 minutes ago, ejg223 said:

If one is designing rifles or parts thereof then one tries to concentrate on that. like it or like it not a rifle is one part of the success. Bedding is part of a rifle.

If one is involved in shooting instructing... well then one is constantly trying to improve methods of instructing ...

If one is the "user" and one want's to improve on level then one might need to look on all fronts. "Man and machine"

Epoxy Bedding: only used because the strength, stiffness etc. is greater than air that it replaces.  I refuse to replace a stronger material with epoxy bedding material. Softer weaker material yes. Bedding a pica rail to an action.... mill away half the action to replace with epoxy?? Pica bedding on alu/steel works perfect even with 0.1mm or less epoxy and there is a benefit.... huge benefit.

I know bedding is an expensive task as we do several hundred bedding jobs a year.

edi

 

 

I’ve always considered bedding to be maximum effort for minimum return

By that I mean all the other work is done, if action truing and barrel fitting etc. Bedding is the last job on the list and involves considerable work in relation to advantages gained

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My divorce lawyer charged me £425 an hour FFS.

£300 for a lifetime of accurate pleasure is a veritable bargain, then take off the tax, materials and costs and  work out the take home !!

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7 hours ago, Moorlander said:

@bradders "I have always been more interested in a different type of shooting, namely those that challenge the shooter rather than his equipment." 

I think too many forget what shooting is really about.

 

Then try Classic Military Rifle - battle-sights and sling.  We shoot it once a month at Diggle - pure as it gets - takes you back to your shooting roots.

A few years ago, when old military rifles - No.4, P17 etc could be had for a modest sum plus surplus ammo at 10p a bang - this is how a lot of us got into rifle shooting. 

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I’m an end user not a rifle builder. But I’ll throw my opinion in the pot. 

The OP is using a laminate GRS stock. The material will compress when the action is screwed into place. As such there won’t be consistent torque achieved without installing pillars which are a solid foundation for the stock to sit on. Along with a bedding compound it creates a consistent stock to action interface which should allow you to remove the stock completely and re-fit using a torque wrench and have no discernible shift in zero.  

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Gents,

There seems to be a growing dichotomy in recent threads, binary answers to questions as in this thread, proponents of bedding and the ‘why bother’ (other things are more important) - does it really matter?

There is no right or wrong to anything to do with shooting, what we do is just a game FFS, do what you feel is right for you - go and enjoy your shooting, which ever type of shooting you choose to do.

The tit for tat posts sort of reduces us to the same as other forums which is a bit of a shame really.

if you want to bed your Rifle have it done, it can do no harm, as SE says, it makes sense. Even better have a go yourself , you would have learnt a new skill -and you will then see why smiths charge for this service what they do. 😉

Have a nice weekend

T

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On 02/02/2018 at 11:16 AM, bradders said:

I’ve always considered bedding to be maximum effort for minimum return

By that I mean all the other work is done, if action truing and barrel fitting etc. Bedding is the last job on the list and involves considerable work in relation to advantages gained

Do you bed your AR`s? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lol:

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7 minutes ago, Moorlander said:

Do you bed your AR`s? 

 

:lol:

It's been done

Terry, not quite sure I understand your post re Binary answers and tit for tat reference

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