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Jay Foxing

Sound Mod Legalities

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This topic deserves its own thread so I`ve moved it from the for sale section that it originally came from-Wsm

 

Hi Paul,

 

Only just noticed, your T4 is only proofed for .222 rem. Not to sure how the law stands on it, but i'm sure you can only sell it to someone with a .222 rem sound mod on their ticket. Not sure how you got it on your ticket for a .223 rem, as now it has been proofed it is a .222 rem mod only. I stand to be corrected though, maybe someone on here knows the law on it better than i understand it (this proof mod business is a gray area).

As i see it, you are selling someone a proofed mod for a certain calibre. My ticket if calibre specific when mentioning mods e.g. a 22lr sound moderator or a .243 WSSM sound moderator. If when entering that mod on my ticket onto my licence you would have to state one .243 sound mod for me to purchase it because that's what i can by. There is the problem, you mod isn't a .243 WSSM mod. Don't know who would be liable in case of an accident with that mod ether, should you knowingly sell someone a mod for their 22-250 that's only passed proof for .222.

As i said, i stand to be corrected.

What was your T8, you may have the same problem with that.

 

Jay.

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Jay,

 

According to my firearms department, a moderator legally does not need to be proofed , the only thing that legally needs proofing is the thread on the barrle, they are now allowing moderators to be purchased with the wording on the firearms certificate being Fullbore sound moderator, with no specification of caliber.

They explained this to me that it was easier for them to do it this way as people were buyin moderators to use on multiple rifles. The so called proof of a moderator is just to increase the cost to the consumer otherwise know as us!

 

This is from the horses mouth, as they say dont shoot the messenger i dont want a big debate over it! thats just what i have been told

 

regards

 

Shrek

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Hi Shrek,

 

No debate intended, as i said - i stand to be corrected. I know a sound moderator does not have to be proofed by law, but what happens once it has been proofed and stamped? And North Wales Police where both Tulky and myself are from are still calibre specific when it comes to mods, i have a mod down on my licence as one .22lr/.222 rem sound moderator for multi calibre use. This is why its a good thing forces across the country don't have standardisation, i would hate for you guys to be stuck with the that which promotes growth and vigour we have to put up with.

It was just a thought for a seller/buyer beware. I don't profess to know the law, but i would look into it before i sold or bought such an item.

 

All the best,

Jay.

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Guest bobjs
Reflex T4ar .25 Cal - 1/2" UNF with rear bush for standard Barrel (Been on my Tikka T3 Hunter .223) - £130

 

if you look at the rating of the t4 on the rear where it states, .25, that means it has a bore construction capable of a cal up to and including a .25 of an ", so that would mean that my .243 of an inch " rifle is capable of fireing throw this mod, and the construction of the mod is within my .243 rifles capability.

 

I hope i am right, coz that's what my feo told me years ago when i got my t4 moderator.

bob.

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Hi Bobjs,

 

You are correct, the mod will be suitable for calibers up to .243". My only fear was once it has been proofed as .222 rem, can you sell it to someone knowing they will be putting it on a .243.

I didn't intend such a debate, i do apologize. Perhaps this would be better continued in a separate thread in the general discussion section.

And my apology's to Tulky for hi jacking his for sale add, all the best with the sale.

 

I must add, i have seen the mods first hand and they are both in excellent condition.

 

All the best.

Jay.

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Guest bobjs

good point Jay.

 

I also live in a feo/ lack of knowledge of firearms and moderators cal specific area, and i too could see the dilemma faced once the item has been sold.

 

i had the same problem as this with a mod i had from Alex ahpp i think he is known as.

 

i had a 22lr rated ase utra, and when the blood an tears stopped flying, i had to give my feo a lesson on the ase utra mod, to the extent of mailing him the moderators capabilities and ratings. as i purchased it to fit it to a 17hmr. :blink:

 

sorry for yet another reply, MODS please remove these to clear this nice chaps sale thread up.

 

bob.

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Hi jay wasnt gettin at you personally about a debate, its just moderators there use and legality seems to be a dangerous subject to get into after reading past threads about them, so my apoligies if you though i meant it directly.

 

Shrek

 

(the end of the day its a peice of pipe with so washers welded in, its a load of bo**oks that its classed as a firearm anyway :blink: )

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PM may of been better Jay, but never mind, like others have said and the way i understand it is :- its proofed upto .25cal and only has .222, because thats probably the gun it was on when it went to the proof house.

The T8 said .30cal on the proof mark as well as the bottom, so no worries there either as the guy that bought it is putting it on a .243

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Hi Paul,

 

Your right, a pm would have been better. Your mod is not proofed up-to .25 it only has proof marks on it for .222 rem, the mark on the end is not a proof mark. But i still maintain, unless someone who knows and is not making their own judgment (as i have done) then i would be careful. In the eyes of the law ignorance is not an excuse. I did say i didn't want a debate and have apologized, if you are legally right then its no problem and this is the last i will say on the matter.

 

Good luck with the sale of the mods.

Jay.

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I'll ring the proofing office in the morning and find out for sure- i'll also ask the NGO firearms bloke what he thinks and then we will have a diffinative answer.

I'll give you a bell tomorrow Jason as discussed mate.

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As I understand it Shrek, there is no legal requirement to proof a barrel after threading. The proofing saga is based on an old Proof Act, 1801?? I think, that states that if the barrel has been "materially" altered, it will require to be re-proofed. A court of law has not yet decided that threading will have "materially" altered the barrel. As has been said, it's a very grey area and one that will require a court case to define. As ever, I'll stand to be corrected but I got this info during a telephone conversation with the Chairman of the Gun Trade Association several years ago. If a moderator is sold on its own, there is no legal requirement to have it proofed. If it is sold with a rifle, it becomes an extension of the barrel and requires to be proofed before sale. The offence if any, would be committed by the seller and not the buyer. That is how I understand it. Something definitive in law would be useful here. I have bought several moderators, none of which are proofed. If anyone here knows different, I'd be obliged to know.

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Hi Paul,

 

In law there is no such thing as a calibre specific suppressor/moderator, for the simple reason that as it is not a barrel there is no way to define what size each suppressor would have to be. The only consideration is that the bore on the suppressor is large enough to allow the safe passage of your bullet. The condition on your ticket whuich insits on a calibre specific mod is a legal nonsense for the simple reason that there is no such thing and Northwales Police would never be able to prosecute anyone for not having a calibre specific mod. With regard to proofing I would speak to Peter Jackson as he has instructed legal counsel to look into this and I would suggest he is the best person to speak to.

 

All the best,

 

Nick

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Right - I have spoken to jackson rifles and they say they have sought legal counsel on this (as Nick20ppc said) and there is no legal requirement for any sound moderator to be proofed and any that may have been done by the proof house are not legaly binding. They also told me that they have seen and still got some T4ar sound mods that have been done by the proof house and state they are for .308cal, even though the exit hole isn't big enough to get a 7.62mm bullet down it (obviously they didn't even test it).

So in answer to your question Jay - not it is not a legal requirement and mine or anyone elses can be sold on, even if it has been proofed.

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Hi Paul,

 

I you feel you can take Jackson Rifles word for it ( they do sell moderators) then go for it. I personally will wait until i've seen a legal document rather than someones word. They don't fire a round through a mod at the proof house, do they? I was under the impression that they only let a charge off in the chamber of the rifle, hence the exit hole don't need to be large enough for a round to pass (Could be wrong on that one though).

When i see it in writing i will go with whatever it says, i will forward the documentation when i get it.

 

Again, all the best,

Jay.

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I,ve just had to scratch a reply, because i lost it, and got extremely upset. Suffice it to say, i would take pete jacksons word over the proof house any day of the week, he legally knows what he is talking about....the proof houses do not.

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Guest northernchris

Of course the proof house say you need to reproof its more money for them!! As Dave and Nick said Mr Jackson has a good handle on whats what regarding the above.

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+1 on what Nick, Dave Paul and Chris have said :(

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Another issue we haven't discussed is how it's recorded on your FAC. A T8 bored for .30, bought new for a .243 and entered onto a .243 moderator slot can then only be sold as a .243 moderator to someone who has a slot for one.

 

Rediculous really considering it's suitable for anything up to the .30.

 

And another thing. Why does an un-proofed moderator have to be entered onto an FAC? It's (as already said) a tin can. I check with our firearms dept a few weeks ago and it's right and I find it difficult to understand the thinking behind it.

 

Bearing in mind it's an accessory why does it need to be on an FAC in the first place?

 

Also isn't it illegal for an FAC holder to sell and unproofed mod? If this is the case why can an RFD sell an unproofed mod to you?

 

Yet another law/ass scenario but in fairness I believe that many firearms depts think mods on tickets a pain and unnecessary

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Its not illegal to sell an unproofed mod, dave. there is no requirement in any law that states they must be proofed. Only the people who are supplying the trade etc with combo,s etc, are doing it. Its not required, and its setting a precedent. Sent a fullbore mod down on a rifle we built 2 weeks ago, and i think it was the 2nd one in 21 years.

It high time the trade in general grew a collective pair of broccoli, and stood up to the proof houses, and police, and told them to prove the archaic 200 year old law [like they screwcutted, or had sound mods then] or take a flying ###### , at a rolling do-nut.

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Dont get me started on those gun damaging bastards. I had to strip, and repaint a .308 they had managed to damage only last week. Thats 3 damaged guns this month.

At least dick turpin wore a mask.

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