Fox Tales Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 I have been concidering neck turning for some time , the practical side of which, would appear straight forward . After watching various videos and reading a few posts online I see there are a lot of both for and against? I think this may be something that I have to try for myself ,though I have a few questions . What would be a the minimum and maximum recommended neck clearances? What would be the minimum recommended neck thickness? Are bushing dies a waste of time, if the cases have not been neck turned as the necks would not apply even pressure? Would bullet concentricity be improved by neck turning? I'm not having any noticeable problems with my own handloads other than quite a large ES , accuracy at 100 yards is excellent . This is in a custom 243 using Lapua brass . Any help would be much appreciated from those more advanced homeloaders amongst you and if you could recommend a book covering this that would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webby Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Difficult question to answer without knowing what it is that you want to achieve. If you are looking to shoot <0.5moa groups at ranges of >600yrds then probably. If not then by doing it you will be opening another whole world of expense, time spent and frustration to your reload process. Some people get pleasure from taking reloading to the nth degree (me included) but it can be frustrating when the gains on the target are sometimes difficult to quantify! Here is a good article from one of the worlds top shooters http://www.6mmbr.com/JGcaseprep.html From experience I can say that you can spend thousands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Tales Posted December 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Hi Webby, I'm not a target shooter but sub 0.5 moa at 600+ yards would be ideal . My pet load is punching sub quarter inch at 100 yards but the ES is creating vertical stringing at distance. I may be one of the reloaders you're referring to. I'll check out the link . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Hi FT,,,From reading your OP I probably think neck turning should not be necessary,,,its an exacting process and if you don,t put in a fair bit of practice you may well make things worse,,,your actually removing brass and making neck clearances bigger which may negate the benefits of a more concentric assembly?,,,,,,,,As you have probably read custom cut chambers and with tight necks etc demand the need to turn but with factory cut chambers I really think you will struggle to see a benefit.By all means have a go just to see and in your case you would only want to "clean up" the necks a little ,,,go gently and adjust the cutter to only take the bare minimum off until you get a minimal cut all the way round the neck and slightly into the shoulder,,,,you,ll soon see whether your brass is out of concentricity,,,some brass alarmingly so !! If you can get a hands on practical with someone that is well practised in the process that would best but as you have already been doing read up and watch good practice on "U tube etc"... Bushing dies,,,highly recommended as the bush when set properly will self centre on the neck whilst in the die. Neck turning if done properly will provide almost nil runout on the neck and bullet once the case has been fireformed and then reloaded again.It takes a once firing to properly straighten itself out..Hope this brief reply helps a little in your decision?,,,,,,O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 It all depends on what sort of accuracy you would deem acceptable, as a trade off against time spent in brass prep. Necks on all brass are very rarely truly concentric. By that I mean that the neck wall is always going to be thicker in parts, than in others. Using a neck bush on these is a completely pointless exercise, as all it does is make the outside of the neck round, whilst pushing excess brass into the inside. By neck turning, the first thing you do, is to expand the neck to correct size on an expanding mandrill. This pushes all the excess brass to the outside. You then cut this excess off with a neck turner. This then leaves you with a neck that is perfectly concentric in wall diameter, all the way round. you then select the correct diameter bush to size with. I performed this operation on 600 pieces of creedmoor brass for my last barrel [ which has just been replaced ] I don't think it made enough difference for the effort involved. One major thing it does do though, is give far more uniform neck tension, which has a major influence on extreme spreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Tales Posted December 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Thank you onehole ,baldie , Very helpful . I'm not trying to increase clearance but even neck tension in pursuit of improving ES and group size at distance . unfortunately I don't know any reloaders who are neck turning as most are happy with Minute Of Deer groupings , which is a shame . I'm not in baldies league for sure ,600 pieces,now there's a man with patience . At present I'm leaning towards giving it a go , the more I learn in regards to homeloading , the more questions I have but those are for other posts . Cheers guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 It is alot of extra case prep.like Dave said you get new cases.expand them.neck turn them.resize them then trim or try the trimmer just in case some are a fraction long.chamfer.uniform primer pockets and flash hole.then it' a case of priming and charging.with a tight neck some say re-neckturn after first firing is advisable.you can see the brass building up at the shoulder junction up the neck after a few firings where the bushing doesn't size.its probaly best to run them frew the turner everytime.its buying all the extra kit adds up if you buy it all.i use my digital calipers to measure the neck wall thickness.that may not be the most accurate.i am fussy measuring setting up the neckturner though.i am neckturning for 2 calibres.now.i would probaly prefer no neck turn chamber having done it.if you want the extreme precision accuracy that' the only way.the likes of laurie.vince.big Al gball etc just to mention a few that our probaly better suited to answer your questions.for what it' worth that' my thoughts.my rifles do shoot very well but so does another of my rifles that isn' a tight neck nor do I use a bushing die on them.i do still get single figure Es's.make your own mind up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 It's pointless neck-turning if it is going to INCREASE the clearance between the neck of your loaded round and the chamber-neck. So - you must have a 'smaller than standard' chamber-neck to start off with. Neck-turning came from benchrest shooters who, at one stage couldn't get quality (i.e. concentric) brass. The original 220 Russian-made brass was very poor. The only option was to neck-turn to get it concentric and most 6PPC shooters up - until a few years ago - were running 262 necks in their 6PPC guns and turning the necks to 8.5 thou. which was giving a thou. clearance all round. (243+8.5+8.5 = 260) Benchrest is shot under cover with opportunity to clean after firing 10 rounds or so. That thou. clearance will quickly disappear once carbon builds up in the neck area. But, things have changed recently - due to the excellent quality of Lapua 220 Russian brass which 99% of BR shooters use to form their 6PPC cases. Many shooters however are now using a 269 neck - which just means a light clean-up skim on the brass to achieve perfect concentricity. Personally, I don't neck-turn for anything except 100/200 yd benchrest. For F Class, 600 and 1000 yard benchrest, McQueen or what have you, I use a 'no-turn' neck reamer - which I specify to be about three thou. larger than a loaded round. Lapua brass is so good (and Norma) neck-turning is not necessary. Bushing dies are a waste of time if you don't neck-turn - for the reasons Baldie gives above. If you want to improve your reloading - full-length size WITHOUT the expander ball and then up-size the necks from the inside with a mandrel - the dia. of the mandrel will give you your required neck-tension and a pretty concentric case. (See Spud for mandrels and holders). The other downside of neck-turning - as Baldie says, so much work - so you tend to over-use your brass. Change your brass as often as you can afford and remember - nothing shoots like new brass! Yes, annealing - if done properly - can extend brass life but not necessarily accuracy life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Tales Posted December 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 More food for thought , Baldie did confirm my doubts regarding bushing dies . Using a mandrel to give the correct /required neck tension is something I haven't heard of before , makes absolute sense . Can't believe this is the 1st time I've heard of this ,I have a spare FL die , so not too much of an investment to give this a try. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 The best way is to get a K+M expander. Its a simple die that holds what looks like a tapered spike. These spikes are calibre specific. Its a cheap, but good quality tool, that does nothing but expand the neck internally. A better bet that using a sizing die. Spud sells them. Get a tin of imperial wax when you order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 31 minutes ago, Fox Tales said: More food for thought , Baldie did confirm my doubts regarding bushing dies . Using a mandrel to give the correct /required neck tension is something I haven't heard of before , makes absolute sense . Can't believe this is the 1st time I've heard of this ,I have a spare FL die , so not too much of an investment to give this a try. Cheers Sorry FT,,,,,I live in a world of tight necks and neck turning hence my thumbs up for the bushing dies,,,,sorry to mislead you. I only own one rifle[223] that is not tight necked and I use a Lee neck die with a modified mandrel to give me sufficient tension.some may cringe at "lee"but it works for me.......O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Not wishing to hi jack the ops thread but am I given to understand neck sizing only is a waste of time and money? If you don't neck turn? ive all ways ful resized but having just bought my first 300wsm for F class comps I've bought a neck sizing die. should I have gone for the full resizing die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 They will be OK for a few firings then may become tighter to chamber then you would need to bump the shoulder back and the best way is really to use a fl sizer from the start.just get a smaller expander ball to hold decapping pin on and guide it through the neck as it doesn't need the expander ball as the die neck resizes it to the correct size.atb No I deer lol There is so much to learn.if your not sure.do as I do and ask the experts.there is so many on here . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Ok thanks its a phone call to Spud in the new year then with an order for the full length die as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 There are British record benchrest shooters on here and so many trying for record's monthly. There is loads of top f class shooters too that shoot in the f class leagues and are in the GB team.i know several by there real names and there user names and some I don't.i wouldn't of thought their all on here but alot are...! Ask away am sure you will get the answers your looking for......! Top gunsmiths/practical rifle shooters. Everything you need to know about rifle shooting is on UKV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furrybean Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Who are you No I deer? I’m the fat lad f class newbie lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 I believe your better known on SD as BK if my memory serves me right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furrybean Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Ha ha and apparently look a bit like Mr Tumbles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Montey said: Ok thanks its a phone call to Spud in the new year then with an order for the full length die as well. Comp shell holder set too,,,,,,,,? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Yes I've gone all comp spec so will follow on the same I imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 40 minutes ago, onehole said: Comp shell holder set too,,,,,,,,? Tell me why I need a competition shell holder....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 Dependant on how aggressive a full length die can be and its internal dimensions come into play here a set of variable thickness shell holders can customise how much full length sizing and shoulder bumping is done,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this is a whole leap off the OP ,,my apologies and best directed to a new topic if necessary,,,regds O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gun Pimp Posted December 30, 2017 Report Share Posted December 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Montey said: Not wishing to hi jack the ops thread but am I given to understand neck sizing only is a waste of time and money? If you don't neck turn? ive all ways ful resized but having just bought my first 300wsm for F class comps I've bought a neck sizing die. should I have gone for the full resizing die? Yep - always full-length re-size - why wouldn't yer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No i deer Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 Why not just adjust the die in or out to achieve the correct shoulder bump or am I missing something. I will say that the comp seater seems a something to nothing gimic if die is adjustable but then they do call me No I deer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Tales Posted December 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 Thanks Guys for sharing your wisdom, I have had a little browse online and found a couple of articles regarding necksizing using a mandrel . The standard mandrel should give a little over 0.001 neck tension , K&M apparently produce custom mandrels specifically for this purpose in a variety of dimensions. The idea of neck sizing by expanding makes far more sense to me than by by compressing the neck . I shall be removing the expander ball from my spare FL die and placing an order with Spud . Guys you've been golden , Happy New Year to you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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