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tecuani

rebarrel expectations

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Good evening,

After reading here a lot I would like to start a topic, I am hoping to get some suggestions regarding rebarreling and my expectations.

I had, for my Keppeler action, two barrels made. One like the original 6,5x47L (replacement) and a 2nd barrel (suggested by the gunsmith) in .280
Both barrels are of a threaded type.
The original 6,5x47L was never used over 300 meter (no other possibilities here in the Netherlands) I don't have exact scope data (Nightforce benchrest) but for this distance no problems were expected nor encountered (there was enough adjustment left for longer ranges, but not sure how much exactly).

Now the problem, the new barrel seems to shoot low, in my opinion not a little bit but a lot. With the scope (nightforce) fully adjusted/dailed up it shoots about 35 cm low (under the target) at 50 meters (I guess about 70 cm @ 100 meter). Trying with another scope and scopemount (Elite Tactical, 34mm tube, 26 mil of total adjustment range) it still shoots low and I have only 6 mils left to dail up. So it hits the target at 100 meters, but a distance of 300 meters will be at the end of the range :-(

The .280 barrel, however shoots different. When zero'ed at 100 meters I have 16MOA (126 clicks up) on the Nightforce left on the range (not really long range but a considerable difference) as for the Elite Tactical I have 184 clicks left, since it is a mil scope, 18.4 mils which gives me a theoretical range of 12-1300 meters. It should be capable of longer ranges but for now it will do.

Now, upon explaining these variations to the gunsmith, he said that changing barrels always gives variations. I am willing to accept that, as a matter of fact, as an engineer I would be surprised if this wasn't the case...but this much?
In my opinion it is not acceptable, basically it means that a rebarreled rifle cannot shoot on target with a stock scope @ 100 meters, I never heard of such a thing. I mean Keppeler and Nightforce is not really bottom end quality....


As the solution he suggested a 40 moa Spuhr mount to overcome the problems. I do not favour this since to me the low shooting of the 6,5x47L is caused by a different problem and the 40 moa mount is just circumventing the real problem.

Am I setting the standard too high?
What can be expected based on your experience?

Kind regards,

Tec

 

 

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Sounds wrong to me! I would be wondering about concentricity between bore and barrel threads. I’m sure there will be other possible reasons though...... hope you get it sorted.

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I've had the odd bent barrel and seen a few more. 

When I put a new barrel on, it's always of interest to see how close to the old aim-point it actually shoots.  This happens mostly with my 6PPC as it tends to get new barrels fairly regularly and they are used mostly at 100 yds.  Usually, they are within a couple of inches at 100yds.

However, I did have a 1000 yd benchgun which, when fitted with the new barrel, was shooting well to the left.  I usually do my 1000 yd load-testing at 300 yds and, after bore-sighting, it was off the four-foot square backer - over 2 feet out!  Funnily enough, it turned out to be the best shooting barrel I've had on a 1000 yd gun.

That's the simple way to tell if the barrel is bent - carefully boresight it but then, when you shoot it, if it's well off - it's probably bent. Do the boresight a few times to be sure.

They say that no barrel is perfect but some are worse than others.  No detriment to accuracy but a bit annoying if you run out of scope adjustment.

Some gunsmiths actually 'index' the barrel in the lathe so the bend is upwards - rather than to the side.  This will actually gain MOA.

Tec - it might be an idea to ask your gunsmith to try indexing - bit fiddly at this stage but do-able.

 

 

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Thanks Gun Pimp,

I tried to boresight this barrel but having difficulties with it and blaming it mostly on my ageing eyes......
I already serious doubted my boresighting skills since I could see the paper target but there was no way I could punch the paper, as it turned out it was shooting very low (almost 1 meter ~ 3 foot @ 100 meter).
I had one of my mates had it sighted (also boresight) until in the end we started as shooter-spotter on a heap of sand since he had very little success.

I will ask the gunsmith about the indexing, but judging from the progress (this is a point of discussion since April) and the solutions he is not aware of it
As it was promised to be a "multi-calibre", I was (at the time) not aware of the problems I could meet, so let this be a warning (and a learning process) about barrel changes in a multi-calibre role <_<
It is not just as simple as screwing another barrel in......

What you say makes sense! But 2 feet @ 300 yards is still different from 1 meter @ 100 meter:angry:
I will serious think about the multi-calibre for this rifle as I think due to the differences in both barrels it is not a feasible thing, unlike what the gunsmith recommended.
 

Tec

 

 

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11 hours ago, tecuani said:

As it was promised to be a "multi-calibre", I was not aware of the problems I could meet, so let this be a warning (and a learning process) about barrel changes in a multi-calibre role <_<

It is not just as simple as screwing another barrel in...

It can and should be but sadly for you the guy who built your rifle doesn't know what he is doing in terms of best aligning the bore before chambering.

Its entirely possible to set up a barrel before chambering that allows for the curvature in the bore so that it shoots straight. All bores wander during drilling, its the nature of the operation, of course some will wander less than others depending on things like drill sharpness, cutting speed, drilling depth and lubrication but they wander nonetheless. I have been supplied barrels that have wandered by easily 0.080" over their length and they have both shot very well and shot straight once fitted. If that blank had been chambered from the other end using certain types of chambering methods it would have been a car crash like yours or worse.

Here is the barrel set up between enters as I started the profiling, I think the cut at this point was around 25 thou and as you can see it was still a long way from truing things up, the hole at the other end where the drilling started was in the middle within a few thou.

IMG_1868 (1).jpg

By the sounds of it you are stuck with what you have, the offending barrel could be re-chambered and rectified if you knew someone competent enough to do it. Im not blaming you here but if you had reasearched the methods of setting up a barrel and then asked the rifle builder which one he used you might have saved this hassle but of course I wouldn't really expect the customer to know more than the rifle builder - sorry to hear about this mess. :( 

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Strange this has just come up, Ive just had a new rifle built and have just started load development (20 rounds down only).

I took the scope of my other f class rifle and put it straight on this and with the scope bottomed out Im still about a foot high, this is the first time Ive seen this but initial testing shows accuracy is fine!

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Hello Big Al,

6 hours ago, Big Al said:

Im not blaming you here but if you had reasearched the methods of setting up a barrel and then asked the rifle builder

No need to worry, I kinda blame myself for not researching beforehand and just trusting the gunsmith's "beautifull blue eyes"....
I wrote this post to learn, it was a bit waste of money but the most annoying thing is, without a doubt, the hassle and trouble for me.
Consider it wise lessons learned!!

However, as a layman I trusted also the advice of the gunsmith! He assured me it was a piece of cake for him, all in a days job.
I did not blame him initially, I tried to work it out, but now he is very persistent that the problem lies in my both scope mounts (original keppeler). This just does not add up for me comparing the results for the .280 and the 6,5x47L.
I just cannot believe that a 6,5x47L needs a 20 MOA mount just to punch the paper @ 100 meters and that he suggests it as a viable solution, actually 40 MOA for longer ranges.

Thank you for the replies and explanations so far, they have been helpful and it clears things up for me!

Tec


 

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2 hours ago, tecuani said:

Hello Big Al,

No need to worry, I kinda blame myself for not researching beforehand and just trusting the gunsmith's "beautifull blue eyes"....
I wrote this post to learn, it was a bit waste of money but the most annoying thing is, without a doubt, the hassle and trouble for me.
Consider it wise lessons learned!!

However, as a layman I trusted also the advice of the gunsmith! He assured me it was a piece of cake for him, all in a days job.
I did not blame him initially, I tried to work it out, but now he is very persistent that the problem lies in my both scope mounts (original keppeler). This just does not add up for me comparing the results for the .280 and the 6,5x47L.
I just cannot believe that a 6,5x47L needs a 20 MOA mount just to punch the paper @ 100 meters and that he suggests it as a viable solution, actually 40 MOA for longer ranges.

Thank you for the replies and explanations so far, they have been helpful and it clears things up for me!

Tec


 

If the point of impact is moving considerably between barrels with the same mounts and scope fitted then the problem lies with the barrel work and the rifle builder needs to take responsibility for this if he assured you that a switch barrel option was a piece of cake.

I do quite a bit of load development of customers rifles I have built, its quite normal for me to fit a new barrel then put the scope back on and it to be within a few clicks of the original zero. Your not going to see a big change in POI between any centerfire at 100yds if both barrels are shooting straight.

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It does rather sound like builder error. We have two rifles with interchangeable barrels, one a DTA and the other a Schultz and Larsen. Neither is a true custom gun, but on both it is possible to swap barrels and for the new barrel in a different calibre to shoot within about 2 MoA of the previous. With a custom gun built by some of the smiths on here we'd expect that to be bettered quite easily. We don't own any of their guns, but we have seen them used by friends who do and wouldn't besurprised to see a same hole group at 100 mards if the calibres were the same.

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Thank you for the replies and useful information
It already sort of confirms what I was thinking.

For now, I wish you all very nice days during the Festive Season!

 

 

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The muzzle must have been out of centre (action centre line) by a few mm. Normally any 2nd year apprentice would have been able to cope with that step on the lathe. These type of gunsmiths give custom rifles a bad name, customers become reluctant to getting barrels fitted or even ordering a full blown custom rifle. I had a remmy sps re-barrelled with a border barrel which shot less than 4" from the previous original sps barrel. Either lucky or a smith who new what he was doing.

In hindsight it easy to say but could you have not had Keppeler fit new barrels? They are customers of ours and still running strong.

edi 

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Hi Edi,

Not nice to experience but I consider it as learning (I thought I finished school long time ago!).
I surely would have walked a different way now.

It would have been more paperwork, export the rifle and getting it back to the Netehrlands. Not difficult but time wise much longer and a lot more paperwork, at the moment I decided I did not expect any technical problems. For the gunsmith it was daily routine......

On the other hand what you say, he is highly unlikely to get anymore business from me or friends, since they have seen what happened.

Yes, it looks nice and impressive, at least to me and he did a nice job optically........but....still......in the end.... a rifle is made for shooting......

Tec

 

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Was this gunsmith in the Netherlands or one of your neighbouring countries? Curious.

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We've just had a Savage mod 12 re-barrelled from 6BR to 6.5x47 (Crispin Engineering), with a Bergara s/steel, and after re-fitting the scope rail (20 MOA), and scope, the new 300yd zero was within 2 MOA of the previous 6BR 300yd zero.

Re-Pete

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