Cleaning brass for reloading

[Ralpharama]

I have now started realoading and am getting better accuracy than I did with he HPS factory rounds I started with. 

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that cases can be cleaned in an ultrasonic cleaner. I have a pretty decent u/s bath for cleaning motorcycle carbs and throttle bodies, which is about to be retired in favour of a much bigger one that will take a whole bank of carbs without having to strip them.

The RFD who sells me my reloading gear uses a tumbler, but says it takes a very long time. Is using an ultrasonic bath an alternative and if so what juice is used?

Thanks

[Brillo]

Ralph, you’ve opened a big can of worms with this one. Next to barrel break-in, cartridge case cleaning has been discussed ad nauseam.

I’ll  kick off what is about to be an exceedingly long thread by stating “why bother cleaning your cases at all?” 

There is no evidence, one way or the other, that it affects accuracy. 

A few top F Class guys I shoot with simply advocate wiping the necks with (fine) wire wool to facilitate inspection and to avoid any potential damage to the sizing die. That’s good enough for me.

If you really do want to ultrasonic, a dilute mixture of citric acid and dish washer liquid does the job as well as proprietary, expensive mixtures.

[No i deer]

I always use a cordless screw driver with the shell holder and some fine to medium wire wool.cleans a case in seconds.after I've done my case prep I put them the tumbler for an hour just to make sure all the lube is off.i do wipe them with a towel first to get the worst of the lube off

[NoEntry]

wets tumbler/stainless steel pins for me. Cant stand dirty brass,

Mike

[rhhudson]

I don't know if it had any benefit cleaning or not, but.....

I use a rotary tumbler it makes them look nice if nothing else. 

[That bald headed Geordie]

Tried tumbling,  ultra sonic cleaning etc many years ago but too time consuming for me.   All I do now is give the case necks a bit of a rub with very fine wire wool to remove any carbon so I can check the case necks are ok.   

Whichever you use (tumbling/sonic cleaning) doesn't make them more accurate in my view.    I have had some very good results at long range with cases just neck cleaned with wire wool.

 

[VarmLR]

I clean my brass because it's easier to spot defects, it ensures no build up of internal crud and because I like nice shiny things!

Tumble for 2 or 3 hours after de-priming fired brass, size, trim, complete my case prep and then into an ultrasonic bath for 20 minutes to remove and traces of case lube.  Finally, the cases are stacked into one of those food dehydrator air driers for an hour before putting away into containers marked with the number of times fired and cal.

[Ralpharama]

That brings me on to another question  Assuming one losses count of the number of times a case has been used, and I probably will, being in my fifties, how does one tell when they are scrappers, or do you keep on using them until they start to split around the neck or where ever?. I would assume that the neck will be the weak point as it gets re-sized and crimped around the bullets.

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, Ralpharama said:

That brings me on to another question  Assuming one losses count of the number of times a case has been used, and I probably will, being in my fifties, how does one tell when they are scrappers, or do you keep on using them until they start to split around the neck or where ever?. I would assume that the neck will be the weak point as it gets re-sized and crimped around the bullets.

 

Simples! Keep your brass together from new in ammo boxes such as the MTM 50s and mark on the label the load and number of times loaded. It is a basic safety as well as performance related issue.

There are two primary reasons to scrap brass. With hot high-pressure loads, the primer pocket is usually the first to 'go' - ie the entire case-head and web expand and the primer pocket with them making caps a loose fit. Use a hand priming tool for the 'feel' and when primers seat with no apparent effort in the pocket, that brass goes in the bin. 

At the shoulder / neck end, work hardening first produces neck tension variations (another reason to batch and keep cases together so you're not mixing once-fired brass with those on their 10th reloading), then beyond that longitudinal neck splits. When the first one appears, all of those cases should go in the bin. How soon this happens, also the degree of work hardening in general is partly down to brass quality, partly the number of times fired, but also case-neck fit in the chamber (hence degree of expansion on firing) and sizing tools / methods. Standard dies work brass a huge amount; bushing sizers plus mandrel expanders a great deal less.

Then there is the issue of (now affordable) home neck annealing that can extend brass life considerably - a huge subject in itself with lots of posts on this and other forums.

A third, much less common cause of scrappage is getting incipient case separations. If you do, in 99% of the time, it is because the user has set the sizer die up incorrectly in the press and is inducing excess headspace through 'bumping' case shoulders back too much. If one appears in the box unless you know there was something different (ie bad) in the way that one case was sized, then again the whole lot should go in the bin.

[gbal]

Ralph,always best to write down the brass's reloading history. Eg Batch 2 (first loaded (date) and number of subsequent reloadings (eg 6) thenyou have a fair idea....time to ditch when some sign of ageing appears (the brass i mean)...it depends on the number ofreloads,how hot/not they were,the quality of the brass,and the care innprepping etc.

Certainly any sign of vertical case neck cracks is a bin absolute,as is the potentuially disastrous horizontal line/bulgeabove the case web-som check with a bent wire inside-you can feel a bulge-bin immediately (case head separtion is very bad news,and imminent).

 In general you are right-the neck area is worked most,and is thinner  probably. Keep the term 'crimp' for the extra. Proceedureoften allpied to pistol ammo,or to eg military bottle neck ammo subject to extra rough treatment.Most rifle cartridge reloaders don't crimp-though hunting bullets often have a crimp ring,and may be crimped (eg in semi autos etc).BUt yes,neck is slightly oversize when bullet leaves,and is Neck resized (FLtoo) to slightly less than bullet diameter,so thee issome bullet retentio...it varies (and bushings give some control over such neck tension for bullet retention).

    Max/hot loads will usually display primer pocket expansion-bin them- before any other sign of overworked brass-normal sub max loads much less likely to do so.

No absolutes-count reloadings,keep a record, see what others with similar loads tend to  say (only a very approx guide) and keep an eye on it-especially as your reloads mount up...annealing  frequently will help to restore brass and give more reloads. One reason some quality brass (eg Lapua) finds favour is that it will tend to give more reloads (and may well recoup initial higher price).

But it's a 'monitor'each time and check for signs,and bin them-if you keep batches the same,and so b labelled,when even one goes-you have a clear warning,the rest should be  about as suspect.

Like memory,and possible other functions,there are no absolutes,but generally wear and tear occur in only one direction -and in  brass that's toward the bin-it'sa comsumable...  :-)

gbal

[RancidRabbit]

I have all three. A lyman tumbler with corn cob media , an RCBS wet tumbler with stainless steel pins and a large ultrasonic cleaner. I use sea green (maplin electronics), £30 for 5 litres.

My personal method that works for me.

1. Decap with universal decapper

2. US clean <20 mins

3. Dry

4. Anneal if necessary

5. Lube & Resize

6. Trim if necassary

7. Tumble to remove lube / burs from trimming / shine 30 - 60 mins

 

The wet tumbler is for decoration only. Many people will disagree, but for me, wet tumbling is too aggressive. Like using a wire brush or sand paper to clean your silverware. Yes it gets the crud off and leaves a freshly grit blasted shine.

 

Whether you need to clean at all and how it affects accuracy? If you are trying to hit 12 steel gongs from 100yds and just want cheap ammo, then I wouldnt bother. Trying to nail the V at 1000yds where the smallest group is desireable in a competition where you are spending hundreds of pounds for travel and accomodation, then yes. Have I ever done a batch test comparison between clean and non cleaned myself?...No,  but i trust all the effort the F ers have put in chasing the best groups and low ES/ED.

For me, alot of my preparation is also psychological. I want to know that the round that i have up the spout, as im planning on nailing that V, is the best possible round that it can be, not some peace of junk that I slapped together. I want total confidence when I release that shot. 

 

[The Gun Pimp]

I think your last paragraph is absolutely correct - confidence in your handloads is what matters.

My most accurate rifle is my 6PPC comp. gun.  I start the season with 15 new cases.  They will be fired six times at every match.  In a season of competition plus a bit of testing that's about 50 firings.  Do I clean 'em?  No - just the outside of the neck.  Are they shooting as well at the end of the season - you bet.  I'm confident my method works.

However, it can't do any harm to return the cases to 'as new' condition by US cleaning - and annealing and, if it boosts your confidence, then great - you'll probably shoot better.

As I now have an AMP annealer, I'm going to try annealing after every match next year.  I'm already annealing for F Class etc. I do have an ultrasonic cleaner but I've only used it once.

 

[Andrew]

I ultra sonic cases because I hate cleaning primer pockets. I have an industrial-grade US that will do several hundred cases at once leaving the pockets residue free.I agitate the cases in clean water to rinse, remove the excess water by shaking the cases in a large bag made from a bath towel, then lay them out in a 6 tier food dehydrator for an hour for final drying. Takes just over 2 hours start to finish.

If primers left no residue I would simply wire wool the necks and be done. I'm not into 'shiny' cases. ~Andrew

[Ralpharama]

The BIG advantage of the US over the tumbler is that I don't need to buy it  I was making some experimental loads the other day and chucked a load of brass into my US bath using the fluid I use for bike carbs. They came out mush cleaner and the primer pockets were sooo clean I didn't need to use the tool. I blew them dry with an air line, as I do with carbs and as it was a short batch (under fifty) I gave each case a very quick pimp up on the polishing mop. I finally cooked them in SWMBO's oven at 120°C for quarter of an hours to ensure they were 100% dry as I was to load them straight away. I emptied them all again at Severnside range at Caldicot today  They all went bang and punched holes in the paper at 100 & 200 yards. I'll have to fill 'em up again I spose. I need to examine the targets to determine which loads were the most accurate first.

[Woodlander]

I once read that sizing uncleaned cases may wear the die,as the powder residue could be abrasive. Hence cleaning before sizing. Any truth in that?

[Brillo]

1 hour ago, Woodlander said:

I once read that sizing uncleaned cases may wear the die,as the powder residue could be abrasive. Hence cleaning before sizing. Any truth in that?

I don’t know if that’s true but I clean the carbon residue off with fine wire wool anyway. 

When I attended a well respected course a few years ago, one of the tutors, a well respected, top class F TR shooter described cleaning the necks with Brasso. I still do this when I fancy a nice shiny neck.

Some will no doubt scream that Brasso degrades brass, but it is made to polish brass and my cases have never suffered as a result of using it, even after a dozen firings (annealed at intervals).

[Ralpharama]

The annealing seems the the most awkward part of the process. I have yet to see an easy, quick and accurate quick way to perform this task.

[gbal]

Quote

AMP system-expensive of course  (Annealing  Made Perfect-can be done for you at a price too),Ralph.

 

[Brillo]

I give my cases to my mate Justin, so it’s annealing made easy.

[gbal]

Brillo,if he has the antipodean  induction machine,that could indeed be : Annealing Made Perfect.    :-)

[justin credible]

Yes I am indeed lucky enough to have that antipodean induction machine.........and yes it is both.....easy and perfect