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dorg

What is regarded as a small 5 shot group

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While at bisley today I shot what I think was a small 5 shot group and wondered what the benchrest guys would regard as a good group at this distance with a 7mm calibre. It may have been a one off lucky group but was scored on the electronic targets only wished I have taken a picture.

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At what distance?  You were on the electronic target so I'm assuming 1000 yds?

Good groups are obviously weather-dependant - if it was a flat calm day then around four-inches - if it was moderately breezy then 6 or 7 inches would be good.  Quite windy - then anything under one MOA - i.e. 10 inches.

Of course, the benchrest guys don't have the advantage of every shot instantly marked - and thus being able to adjust aim between shots.

So what did it measure?

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I am yet to shoot at one of these electronic targets.£20 per hour per person apparently 

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We were load developing and yes 1000yds straight 284 5 shots fired as fast as possible without looking at the monitor the group was between 11/2 and 13/4 inches . Just as a point to note we must have put 250 rounds into the electronic target  and it never missed a beat. Not sure what we paid but the day was £122 for and electronic target in the morning and a normal target with marker in the afternoon which although is winter rates, but between 5 of us was a cheap day out

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1.5 inches! 

The World 1000 yard Benchrest Record is 1.397 inches.  The UK record is 2.46 inches. 

Pity you don't shoot benchrest.....

 

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Listen, and I'm not trying to be funny here, but 1.5 to 1.75 inches at 1K ! Was that the measurement on the target or on the screen?

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And there was I quickly reading it as "between 11 1/2 and 13 1/4 inches" LoL!

I'd love to have seen a photo of a 1000 yd 1.5 inch group.  Not sure I could poke that into a target with a long pencil from one yard never mind 1000 yards!

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9 hours ago, dorg said:

We were load developing and yes 1000yds straight 284 5 shots fired as fast as possible without looking at the monitor the group was between 11/2 and 13/4 inches . Just as a point to note we must have put 250 rounds into the electronic target  and it never missed a beat. Not sure what we paid but the day was £122 for and electronic target in the morning and a normal target with marker in the afternoon which although is winter rates, but between 5 of us was a cheap day out

To put things in a similar context, I currently hold the UKBRA Heavy Gun 1000yd record which stands at 2.778"

Your 7mm F-Open rifle would run in the Heavy Gun class if it shot benchrest with us at Diggle, as Vince pointed out the slightly smaller Light Gun record is 2.46".

Ive never been to Bisley but from what I know it seems open and flat so probably better suited to shooting small groups? 

At Diggle we shoot along and up a valley, the topography doesn't really lend itself to shooting small groups and Im convinced if we had other benchrest suitable ranges around the country the records would be lower than they are. I would be very pleased with a group like the one you shot though, nice one ;)

 

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I am sure you are right about Diggle being much less small group friendly having shot there several times, I am sure my group was a fluke but my measurement is based on the group at its largest was less than a third the distance between the 4 and 5 ring in an F class target. It would be interesting to try proper bench rest one day.

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Dorg,perhaps you could confirm/clarify the (estimated?how?) spread of your 5 shots at 1000y.

VInce and Big Al-current uK record holdes-have given worldrecordsize groups for 1000y BR-US are generally just a little smaller than uk (they have been shooting longer,definitely shoot far more groups,and maybe have rather more  benign condition days-but we are in the +/- inch ball park differences-and add in Heavy gun and light gun similar differnces too-let alone any 10 shot groups,which will be  a little bigger.

.   Group size is measured as distance between the outer edges of the most separated 2 shots minus calibre (or centre to centre of those shots-same).

Generally vertical spread is less than horozontal spread,as the former is mainly a function of consistent cartridge velocity (relatively within reloaders control) and horizontal is largely a function of wind (much less accurately within  shooters judgement,on average,and range-distance and location-related.)

    Whatever the group,it may be a one off caused by the wind (which blows then in ,as well as out-though seldom equally).So consistent small groups become the criterion really,rather than just a one off....pleasing though that might at first seem to be...

I note you fired some 250 shots,wirhout equipment failure. That's 50 5 shot groups-though not all would be 5 shot,nor with the better loads under development. BUt you may have some. Anecdotal data from other groups that would give some context to the 'best' group.

   Ad of course,the rifle should be considered-where there is a 'factory class' performance is considerably down on the custom rifles (1/2 moa would be pretty good for a factory rifle,and might well double or triple with increasingly tricky wind.The customs/experienced shooters groups will deterirate too,but less.

   Last point to consider-what kind of feedback is available-electronic  is shot by shot,BR competition is not-so shots cannot be 'corrected'.One last thought-grouping is one criterion ( rig precision and shooter/reloader skill) but equivalent group size  and bull centered is another ( harder without feed back?).

   Accurate Shooter bulletin carries reports/photos of impressive targets shot in mainly US competitions. UK comp results are often on this forum. Always worth a peek at the top performers other (non recrdsize) targets-usually pretty consistent-suggesting  luck is an implausible explanation for  their best group-they tend to be consistently pretty good,relay to relay.

 

gbal

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that will be the talk of the range office

Edited by banus02

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The 11/2 to 13/4 is the size of the group fluke or not and although one of the range staff did witness the group on the monitor I doubt  any real notice was taken. I am hoping to get to shoot some groups with this rifle soonish at 600yds and will see what that comes out at. I am well aware one group does not make an accurate rifle but time will tell.

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27 minutes ago, dorg said:

The 11/2 to 13/4 is the size of the group fluke or not and although one of the range staff did witness the group on the monitor I doubt  any real notice was taken. I am hoping to get to shoot some groups with this rifle soonish at 600yds and will see what that comes out at. I am well aware one group does not make an accurate rifle but time will tell.

I think you are being hard on yourself calling it a fluke Dorg, it happened, you shot it and did the rest of the work to get it there so enjoy the achievement while putting it into the relative context Im sure you have.

I think when it comes to shooting really small groups at distance we all have to have an element of luck. By luck I dont mean a crap rifle and a crap shooter will end up breaking a record, we are not talking that lucky. I mean we need luck with regard to the elements allowing us a chance to show what our gear could be capable of.

Recently a customer of mine broke the 600yd Heavy Gun small group record at Diggle with a 1.058" 5 shot group. This was shot in the second of his four relays. His groups in the order they were shot were;

3.387"

1.058"

5.424"

5.057"

I know the rifle well, Ive seen all of the load development and Ive seen its accuracy and consistency out to 1000yds yet how can he shoot a 1" group then 10 mins later follow it with two 5" ones?

Does this make his rifle a very average one that peaked for a monment or is it a very accurate one that was given a moment to shine?  - I would say the later. Last week I would say you were given your moment and you made the most of it - well done B)

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Do the Electronic targets on Stickledown give read outs in inches? The ones on Century seem to be in MOA.

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Dorg....

What wins benchrest matches is consistency, i.e. multiple repeatable decent groups.

Note Decent, not stunning.....

When I started shooting benchrest I was told by an old timer.... just keep it sensible, the bad ones kill you, the small ones help you, and he was right.

I've seen people break a record on one group, then have a train wreck the next one and finish mid table, only to be beaten by someone who has just plodded along all day shooting "respectable" groups with no major disasters along the way.

Your 1.5 - 1.75" group is truly special, based on the above, what were the others like, if they were even similar, say 3" or under then you clearly have a setup that is well and truly capable of being very very effective at long range BR.

Hope the above is helpful and well done on the group, it is very good.

Bruce

 

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2 hours ago, dorg said:

The 11/2 to 13/4 is the size of the group fluke or not and although one of the range staff did witness the group on the monitor I doubt  any real notice was taken. I am hoping to get to shoot some groups with this rifle soonish at 600yds and will see what that comes out at. I am well aware one group does not make an accurate rifle but time will tell.

Well, why not come up to Diggle Christmas week?  We have a 600 yd BR comp. on Saturday 30th December.  It's a UKBRA match so any record group will be recognised as a UK record.

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Thanks for the offer Vince if  I can make it I will , one thing I was thinking never shot benchrest do you take the extra second to double check your aim or save the time and get the bullets away and what sort of time would you expect to get 5 shots away in.

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Speed really is the essence with long range benchrest shooting - when it's windy, the best shooters will get five shots off in under 15 seconds.  You've got to beat the wind rather than trying to read it. If it's calm then 20 to 30 seconds.

So, a good set-up is essential but most of us use equipment which is common to F Class - Seb NEO front rest and heavyish good quality back bag.  Bags can be borrowed on the day if you don't have a suitable one.

 

 

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Congratulations id be proud of that ! B);)

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After looking and reading again  the 5 shot group was 1.5 inches as opposed to 11/2 to 1.75. 13/4 :D.how ever you did it you shot a group of a lifetime. Out of curiosity what was your load :wacko:

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