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19 minutes ago, snakeman said:

Then I wonder if all the good gents, at all the proof houses, also follow cleaning procedures and clean those barrels after each test shot they fire?

Failing to do so seems like closing barn door but horse already bolted.... for everyone deciding to commence their own break-in regime on the return of the rifle

When one of my rifles comes back from proof I clean the barrel myself, I remove all traces of copper fouling and carbon and inspect it with a good quality optical borescope. The barrel is then ready for the customer to do what he feels is right. The fact there have been three proof rounds fired without cleaning in-between is irrelevant and wont affect the bigger picture.

 

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Al

So could not someone do exactly the same as you after shooting let's say, 5 or 6 shots? Or pushing it, even 10 shots?..Granted it might take slightly longer to clean because of more fouling......If this is the case, then could not someone shoot 3 shots and take the rifle home and clean...then on the next outing, let's say shoot 5 shots and take home and clean..then on the next outing.........and so on.....I am sure you can see where this is going......

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11 minutes ago, Big Al said:

When one of my rifles comes back from proof I clean the barrel myself, I remove all traces of copper fouling and carbon and inspect it with a good quality optical borescope. The barrel is then ready for the customer to do what he feels is right. The fact there have been three proof rounds fired without cleaning in-between is irrelevant and wont affect the bigger picture.

 

So what you're saying is ,is that cleaning is relevant when it suits ,but irrelevant when it doesn't?

Does anybody know of a barrel ruined by not cleaning? 

 

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13 minutes ago, Gluv said:

So what you're saying is ,is that cleaning is relevant when it suits ,but irrelevant when it doesn't?

Does anybody know of a barrel ruined by not cleaning? 

 

Nope, only through corrosion, but that's unconnected

I'm surprised no ones used the old chestnut "I've seen more barrels ruined through over-cleaning than through being shot out" yet!!!

The thing about cleaning: if you don't clean it and go out and shoot it again, you won't hurt it

 

All that said, most of this really is speculation with very little empirical data to back it up.

I'd like to see someone take two identical barrels from the same manufacturer and batch, carefully break one in as per internet break in instructions, leave the other completely alone and then shoot them side by side for 6000rds and then post their findings

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1 minute ago, bradders said:

I'd like to see someone take two identical barrels from the same manufacturer and batch, carefully break one in as per internet break in instructions, leave the other completely alone and then shoot them side by side for 6000rds and then post their findings

and so would I, bradders...so would I

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Personally I don't believe any of it! I'm with bradders on this one 👍

i kind of think this breakin business is done but nobody knows why and nobody has proof it makes any difference. 

How does the saying go?

"Something that is asserted without evidence ,can be dismissed without evidence "

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12 minutes ago, MJR said:

Reckon this guy probably knows more than most.

https://bartleinbarrels.com/cleaning-and-breaking-in-guide-lines/

???..Why this particular guy? Because of the kudos make(r)?...Why not 'the guy' working for Shillen or Truflite, or Sassen or Kreiger?...or a host of other barrel makers?...and yes, they're all very much like for like...

Actually, that link is the instruction that I used when I did break-in my first new barrel. ..BUT, for the life of me, and while I believe it didn't do it any harm, in practical terms I cannot determine in any way how it improved on anything (inc easier cleaning) that the Model 70 I had could offer, which did not undergo the same rigorous break-in regime....Yes, I'm a big believer in barrel 'cleaning' for obvious reasons and always have been ..but barrel break-in?...C'mon guys, factual evidence please...Doubting Thomas here

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38 minutes ago, MJR said:

Reckon this guy probably knows more than most.

https://bartleinbarrels.com/cleaning-and-breaking-in-guide-lines/

Well he says to never use abrasive cleaner, but Callum says do use abrasive cleaners.

https://www.precisionrifles.com/information/faqs/cleaning/

Geoff Kolbe said shoot one round a day for 5 days and leave the barrel to soak in solvent for 24hrs after each shot

Derrick Martin says shoot your new gun till you get tired of the noise/recoil or run out of ammo, go home and clean it (or don't) and have a beer

John Kreiger says this

 

George Gardner says this

 

Personally I think that barrel makers/gunsmiths are supposed to have an opinion on the matter because their customers ask them what their preferred procedure is, so they feel compelled to have an opinion

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9 hours ago, Gluv said:

So what you're saying is ,is that cleaning is relevant when it suits ,but irrelevant when it doesn't?

Does anybody know of a barrel ruined by not cleaning? 

 

The point I was trying to make is that none of us in the UK have any control over the very early shots that go through the rifles barrel, usually they happen at the proof house, they will be three in total and when I get the rifle back there will usually be some copper in the barrel along with carbon. Short of me doing my own full barrel conditioning before sending every rifle to proof there is nothing any of us can do, thats the way it is.

When I get barrels back from proof its interesting to see the differences in the amount of copper fouling that they have after only three shots, Ive seen everything from very little to quit a lot and this seems to depend on a number of factors but mainly the degree of tooling marks there was in the throat of the level the barrel was originally lapped to.

All I can then do is clean the barrel thoroughly until it is back to the condition it was pre-proof when it came from the maker and allow the customer to then follow whatever break in/conditioning procedure they want. Because I give them back a clean barrel its a fresh start, no harm was done in this three shots and nobody has to deal with the fouling build up from them as I have cleared it.

Personally I dont have a strong opinion on the subject of barrel conditioning because as Bradders suggests I haven't seen the results of a rigorous test. That said, most of the quality custom barrel makers suggest some pattern of shooting and cleaning to remove the copper created by the machining marks in the throat until the fouling diminishes. I can live with that to a point as a good barrel is a reasonable investment and it makes sense to protect it. Usually after 20-50 shots the throat is nice and smooth and the copper fouling is gone or minimal.

I think the idea behind cleaning after one shot for ten then every three for a while etc is a good way to ensure the copper comes out if you dont have a borescope, as was said earlier in this thread, a clean patch can often deceive. Because I have a borescope I can see what level of copper build up is happening with individual barrels and I know it differs significantly over a number of barrels so the broad brush procedure needs to be thorough enough to cover both ends of the spectrum. 

As was said earlier, if you have invested a lot of money in a nice rifle or quality barrel why would you not want to ensure it is conditioned as best as you can for the sake of a few hours and a bit of elbow grease?

 

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Haters is always gonna be a hater I guess:D

 

I chose the Bartlein description for one phrase in particular - listen to what the barrel tells you. John Krieger and George Gardener are essentially saying the same thing, use barrel break in to address any tooling marks left after chambering and then watch the cleaning process to monitor how the break in is working. Anyone that has a reasonable sense of touch will easily tell the difference between a well lapped barrel one that's not so good when you push a patch down it.

I choose to break barrels In this way and then watch what the barrels is doing going forward. 

If others choose to go out and shoot straight away and think barrel break in is a waste of time, good for them, go for it.

 

 

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"Something that is asserted without evidence,can be dismissed without evidence"(quoted by Gluv) is "Hitchin's Razor"-a useful debating tool ( and occasionally useful  some forums....). It is saying that only evidence can decide the truth-but of course does not in itself give any for/against the assertion.

    Bradders and Big Al make much the same good. point-is there any really sound  evidence?

Cleaning a rifle that continues to shoot well (plenty anecdotal,but reasonable evidence) suggests cleaning does no harm

Not cleaning   a rifle that continues to shoot as it did when new (!1/2-2 moa at 100y,worse further out) would indicate that there are other more serious causes of  such modest performance.

Bench Rest shooting is very sensitive to very small precision changes (second decimal place moa stuff) that most other shooters would not notice.Most BR shooters clean between  5-8 shot relays.

Some shooters never really collect good data on their rifle-a hit is a hit...Fig 11s go down....big,not too distant gongs are hit...ok....cleaned or not...not very  helpful as the targets are too big to give good accuracy change data.

Maybe cleaning is very sensible,even essential,on premium barrels used for precision shooting (BR ) way beyond average club/varminter (200y fox?)/stalker levels of precision. Done well,it is very unlikely to make barrels shoot worse.Not done thoroughly,it may not be noticed unless high precision is essential.

Barrels are very likely to be differentially vulnerable too-the 'factorygrade' maybe have other imperfections which mitigate lack of cleaning (they will seldom ever shoot like premium barrels,cleaned or not.)

Cleanliness being allegedly next to godliness (Hitch that if you will)  and being an atheist, I clean,as it probably  does  some good,and no harm. I also have a  cleaned 5000+ round 243 Sako,firecracked from throat on out...that shoots quite well (but is no longer the 1/3 moa it once was,and if you didn't know how good it was,it's just fine.Shot out-yes by bore condition;still a pleasure to shoot-yes ). A 7x57 was never cleaned  by two generations of keeper-still a  11/4 moa  shooter,Norma ammo.-don't know if it was ever  better (no data).

It's partly about 'horses for courses' and what you need (not what you think you need).Cleaning too-can't see copper and  carbon build up as an improvement, but can't really ' 'prove' it  i(but  not risking  no cleaning of good shooting barrels,especially premium ones.)

 "Fit for purpose" may well allow quite some tolerance in the cleaning/not exchange of assertions.I doubt that it is has exactly the same pros and cons  for every shooter/rifle /purpose combo,but the evidence is rather anecdotal.

There is excellent data on the cost of a replacement barrel,however,and it's  more than the cost of cleaning.  :-)

gbal

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I broke in my new 6.5 Grendel CZ the other day. I zeroed the scope with 8 rounds of Hornady Black Match, fired four five shot groups at 100, moved out to 200 and tacked 3/4 inch. Two days later I killed a deer with it.

Two days after that I fired 26 rounds of handloads which shot as well as i could hold. I will be shooting it again this weekend.

I might think about cleaning it after that....:D~Andrew

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11 minutes ago, Andrew said:

I broke in my new 6.5 Grendel CZ the other day. I zeroed the scope with 8 rounds of Hornady Black Match, fired four five shot groups at 100, moved out to 200 and tacked 3/4 inch. Two days later I killed a deer with it.

Two days after that I fired 26 rounds of handloads which shot as well as i could hold. I will be shooting it again this weekend.

I might think about cleaning it after that....:D~Andrew

Minimum effort for maximum return

Good man 

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Andrew, the question is , would it shoot better if a break in procedure had been followed? Who knows?

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23 minutes ago, MJR said:

Andrew, the question is , would it shoot better if a break in procedure had been followed? Who knows?

Or would it shoot any worse if it hadn't? 

 

It always reminds me of those that choose to put 97 RON petrol in their car that's been designed to run on 95!

Some people are more interested in cleaning than shooting :lol:

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The old Rocky Mountain men were reputed to  come down to civilisation in the spring,for a bath........whether they needed one or not.              :-)

gbal

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this has raged on and on (ad nauseam frankly) for years on other sites.

Apocryphal stories of manufacturers posting break in processes on their websites 'cos people wanted one and kept phoning up interrupting fee paying work. Just sayin'

Like other religion's, do what you want just don't try to covert me

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4 hours ago, Kalahari said:

Just buy your rifle seconhand then breaking it in really doesn't concern you. :D

 

David.

That's my usual plan! Too bad I have such a fascination for the new CZ 527's coming out! I've bought three new ones this year alone: 300 AAC, 7.62x39 and 6.5 Grendel. I just couldn't wait out a used one! I did buy an older, 2nd hand 527 Carbine in 223 from a country store up in the mountains this past fall. Beautiful wood and a vintage 4X Burris. I loaded some 50 grain Noslers over Varget and started punching them into the same hole at 100 yards.

Maybe the previous owner ran -in the barrel! ;)~Andrew

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A comment made by the Krieger guy surprised me....................he inferred that the "chemistry" can vary within a barrel blank, and they can detect this by changes in the machining characteristics as the tool moves along the barrel.

Hopefully, such barrels are destined for the scrap bin, and not Brit gunplumbers.....................

Re-Pete

 

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Every barrel made has such characteristics Pete, from the cheapest tomato stake to the very best barrel made.

You can feel it on the reamer. Makes no difference whatsoever to the way a barrel shoots.

You would be very surprised which brands are the worst for it. [ hard and soft spots ]

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I too am not sure what to think on the breaking in procedure but I make an effort and do it to a fashion.as said in earlier post.there is no evidence to prove any difference but if there is some blemishes up the barrel that were ironed out and cleaned off it only going to beneficial rather than detrimental if only to your psyche and confidence which is a big thing......!

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Here’s what AI has in their instruction manual. It doesn’t take too long. I reckon that they must know a thing or two about barrel accuracy..

BA200636-38BE-4BBD-9E3C-FDDAB7005266.jpeg

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