'Works in everything' N140 load for 6.5x47?

[Catch-22]

15 hours ago, Brillo said:

Hi Catch,

With RS50 I used 123 grain SMKs and 123 Lapua Scenars. 

With the F1 Chrony I measured MVs in the mid 2900s from a 32” Lilia 8 twist barrel. 

I started at the gold standard of 37.5 grains and worked up. 

Through real world trials I arrived at an algorithm that allows me to translate Reloder 15 data to RS50.

HTH

 

Thank you buddy!

almost identical charge and velocity to mine.

cheers

[brown dog]

Well, here's the N140 outcome; the first (other than proof) rounds through this rifle.

Load development:

Safety check(yesterday): Arbitrary 'looks right' (but absolutely consistently applied) OAL.  CCI br mag primers.

2rds at 36.5gr N140 into sand at < 1m. Followed by 2 rds at 37gr N140 into sand at < 1m. No pressure signs.

Bisley (today, ranges not open until approx 1100hrs due to fog) :

37.5gr N140.  

92 metres.Three zeroing shots fired, then 3 chrono shots ( avg 2720fps). then this group fired using the paster as an aiming mark with a 10 click offset applied.

 

 

Then quickly back to 274m.  One shot for centre, and then this next group (the group has two marker squares in it - the group size was reported as two touching and 3rd a 'finger width' away).  

Two more groups were fired subsequently, with almost identical outcomes.

 

I'd conclude that 37.5gr N140 is, indeed, an 'any rifle' sweet spot for this proj. I went out with a brand new rifle, expecting to find an outcome like this, and got it.   Did similar with RL15 in two previous 6.5s.   Repeatedly lucky, or Sweetspot-Zen?! 

Thanks all

 

(PS:  Who needs load development?!   )

(PPS: This is the second 6.5 Ronin has done for me over the years; Dustyman now has the first one. They've both shot like this right from the get-go: He makes very boring rifles!  I've had to promise Ronin that I won't sell this one! ) 

 

 

 

[Catch-22]

Hey Brown Dog

what bullet were you using? 2720fps seems quite low. Are you using a 140g bullet by chance? 

If you're using a 120/123g bullet, try going up a 1.0gn (38.5/38.6gn) to eek out a bit more velocity (obvs without pushing pressure). 

Accuracy does seem great though.

i do think N140 is often overlooked in this cartridge.

[brown dog]

123gr, yes, a bit slower than I would choose, I might crank it up a wee bit in the fullness of time, but (you might have guessed! I don't enjoy handloading tinkering) that'll be its only tinker until Tiff's comp in Dec. I'm happy to trade 1 or 200 fps for no-tinker accuracy at paper and gongs so, I'm taking it as 'good to go".

[Big Al]

What exactly are your requirements from this rifle and load Matt?

Is it for stalking, LR varminting or target shooting etc?

Do you now expect to use this load all year round?

[Bianchi]

Have just started retesting N140 with Lapua 123 grn Scenars after the N150 route.

The Vihtavouri N140 data suggests 36.4 grn as max. (2756 fps) without moly at COL 69.5mm/2.736".

Too conservative versus 37.5+ grn as discussed, or are high pressure signs difficult to spot with SR primers in 6.5x47L? 

[brown dog]

Too conservative, I would say - and no idea how they deduce that mv from such a light charge?!

Al, this'll be used for gongs, paper and rocks. This zero was about 15degC, so a reasonable UK mid-point - remember, I'm horses not zebras, so it'll be fine all year.

[gbal]

Commercial powder load data will be based on the manufacturer loading up to SAAMI/CIP pressure limits,set years ago.Most will not be updated for 'advances' like SR Palma type cartridge designs. Manufactures measure actual pressure,not 'signs' like flattened primers ertc,which are indicative when present,but not definitive of no pressure issues if absent.

It's also possible that some of the  properties of the SR/Palma cases which allow higher velocity,make symptoms/signs less detectable-smaller primers for example,may not lossen at the same pressures as the LRs...Whether the book max is  'conservative' has to be considered by evidence-but for homeloaders,that won't be actual pressure measures,so it's perhaps 'not yet proven',and not a clear go ahead for 'liberal' powder increases-and any pressure symptoms need be  taken very seriously.

gbal

[brown dog]

22 minutes ago, gbal said:

Commercial powder load data will be based on the manufacturer loading up to SAAMI/CIP pressure limits,set years ago.Most will not be updated for 'advances' like SR Palma type cartridge designs. Manufactures measure actual pressure,not 'signs' like flattened primers ertc,which are indicative when present,but not definitive of no pressure issues if absent.

It's also possible that some of the  properties of the SR/Palma cases which allow higher velocity,make symptoms/signs less detectable-smaller primers for example,may not lossen at the same pressures as the LRs...Whether the book max is  'conservative' has to be considered by evidence-but for homeloaders,that won't be actual pressure measures,so it's perhaps 'not yet proven',and not a clear go ahead for 'liberal' powder increases-and any pressure symptoms need be  taken very seriously.

gbal

That, or, in this litigation age, one can look around for empirical evidence, and make a judgement on whether VV's max is a litigation-max, or an actual max. I judge the former. I also have a mental note pigeon-holed, from years of empirical observation of n140 in 308, that VV alway absurdly overstate mv for their given charge weights - which, no doubt, has a marketing element to it. If they stated a real mv for their litigation-max, no one would use the powder.

[MJR]

Good result, might have to try that when the Varget runs out.

[Ronin]

As expected, the rifle shoots very well.

The "go to" start load  is just that - a known baseline accuracy load (just like 444.5g Vit 140 under a 155 g Scenar in 308)

It may not attain "best" accuracy, but its damn close in many rifles.

Matts rifle is shooting .3 MOA or thereabouts, id say its a pretty good a representative example of what this load shoots in many 6.5x47's ive built (and there have been many)

 

[terryh]

Matt,

Well that saved me a phone call today - the N140 worked then.

Will be giving it a try as I'm out of R15 and H4350.

Might try the small mag Murons as well as I've had good results using their standard LR primers in 6.5x55 and BPCR's

BigAl - sorry have to disagree with you on your comments and concur with the 'one load can work in many rifles'. A few years ago shot a comp in the US where you had to use the issued ammo. CorBon supplied the ammo, 308win in both Lapua and Win brass, bullet was a 175g SMK. It worked for 60 competitors in factory & custom, bolt and semi auto rifles, granted you 'might' have obtained slightly better individual results, but being consistent and able to swap brass in the same magazine does de-bunk a few claims!

From 'reasonable' experiance there are a couple of loads that work, e.g. 37.5 R15 + 123g in 6.5x47, 43.5g Varget + 175g SMK in 308 etc. This is corroborated by experainced Smith friends in US.

Brgds T

[brown dog]

On 04/11/2017 at 7:38 AM, brown dog said:

123gr, yes, a bit slower than I would choose, I might crank it up a wee bit in the fullness of time, but (you might have guessed! I don't enjoy handloading tinkering) that'll be its only tinker until Tiff's comp in Dec. I'm happy to trade 1 or 200 fps for no-tinker accuracy at paper and gongs so, I'm taking it as 'good to go".

Realised that my reasoning omitted the fact that this rifle has a 19.5" barrel!

Fag packeting @21fps per inch,  2720fps would have been:

2814 from a 24"

Or 2856 from a 26"

So, not as slow as it looked.

(6.5 chop article: https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-creedmoor-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/ )

[Cienfuegos]

Este es mi desarrollo para una carga de 100 metros. Keppeler / Barrell LW 28"

La velocidad está en el nodo de 2559 fps. Debajo está mi prueba del nodo de 2888 fps  que uso para 900 yardas.

Y está claro que en 33.8 granos es el punto ideal. La pólvora es RS50, pistones BR4, Scenar 139 y Brass Lapua con 10 disparos.

[terryh]

More 'under thunk' as opposed to the accepted 'uber-thunk' .

to add to the N140 do all, after readingMatt's thread, finding 4kg N140 in the cupboard and H4350 disappearing I literally threw some loads together, just 3 rounds of each, in 1/2 grain steps. Results of 130g Beterger OTMs, seating depth by eye (bit of a trend):

36.0g. 2674, 2673, 2673

36.5g  2703, 2710, 2706

37.0g. 2730, 2723, 2722

37.5g 2763, 2773, 2767

So I'll go back and sort 5 rounds of similar loads to see if they are repeatable.

T

[No i deer]

55 minutes ago, terryh said:

More 'under thunk' as opposed to the accepted 'uber-thunk' .

to add to the N140 do all, after readingMatt's thread, finding 4kg N140 in the cupboard and H4350 disappearing I literally threw some loads together, just 3 rounds of each, in 1/2 grain steps. Results of 130g Beterger OTMs, seating depth by eye (bit of a trend):

36.0g. 2674, 2673, 2673

36.5g  2703, 2710, 2706

37.0g. 2730, 2723, 2722

37.5g 2763, 2773, 2767

So I'll go back and sort 5 rounds of similar loads to see if they are repeatable.

T

Hi Terry.

What length is your barrel.

Have you any 139gr or 140 grainers you could chrony on this N140.

[Catch-22]

18 hours ago, No i deer said:

Hi Terry.

What length is your barrel.

Have you any 139gr or 140 grainers you could chrony on this N140.

TBH, I'd have thought N140 is too fast burning for the 139s & 140s. For the heavier heads, I'd look at N150 and RS62 as better suited powders.

[terryh]

No I Deer

from memory 23”

do not have any heavier bullets to hand but do have 1300+ 130g which IMHO are about right for the 47, the 123’s previously used worked fine but ran out. 

My ‘gut’ says the 139/140’s are one step too far in this cartridge!

T

[brown dog]

No I deer - please stop quoting every post - just reply.

[No i deer]

Okeydoke Mr brown dog sir.I  think I did it to highlight my question\answers.

[No i deer]

I checked my data and 36grs of N150 pushed the 139gr scenars between 2681 and 2690fps over 5 shots from my 27 inch barrel.9fps ES not bad.cutting cloverleaf 3 shot group.it would be worth trying another grain or so.I could see it making 2800fps.39.8grains of h4350 does.39grs of RS60 pushes them about 2840fps.

[Cienfuegos]

Vhita 150 or RS50. The doubt about these two dustbins. After looking for a low node with the RS50, I compared it with the Vhita150 and added a grains ... And I had this surprise, iregular behavior of the Filandesa gunpowder. And excellent behavior in DS of the Swiss.