RFD transfer rules

[CameronWilson]

Hi Guys,

I'm in the middle of trying to buy a rifle from an individual down south, and have his RFD transfer the rifle to my RFD.

The sellers RFD is insisting that I send my original FAC ticket to the seller, that the seller fills in the details on my ticket, and that they then transfer both the rifle and my ticket to my RFD.

Is this correct? I was under the impression that RFDs regularly transferred rifles between themselves?

Thanks,

Cam.

[MrCetrizine]

It seems to be the way some RFDs are reading the rules. I've had one insist on me sending my ticket to them which I didn't like the sound of but did and the rest allowing my local RFD to sign it on.

I can't find the actual law so I think you are stuck with what the RFD requires. Unless you can get your seller to find a local RFD willing to do it the more sensible way of letting your RFD sign it onto your ticket.

I don't know how we'd stand with the licensing department if a FAC is lost in the post.

I did have to refuse a gun sent to my RFD once because it was damaged in transit. My RFD sent it back to the selling RFD and they sent a replacement. If they had asked for my ticket up front then I'd have to have done an immediate variation to get the broken rifle taken off before I could get it replaced. Silly way of doing it.

[bradders]

The "LAW", not the rules state that the seller must enter the firearm onto the buyers FAC, and not the dealer handling the firearm.

This is being enforced more thoroughly, as in the past it was more or less ignored, and no one had a problem with it....however the authorities are now asking for a full audit trail of everything.

Recently the Met Police had a meeting with all the RFDs in the London area, and of 185 RFDs in London, approx 85 (inc myself) attended. BASC, the NRA and the GTA were also there

It covered a multitude of topics and one of these was "remote sales"

In essence, you send your FAC to the seller, he enters the firearm onto your license and then returns it to you.

The firearm gets sent to the nominated dealer and you go there armed with your FAC with the relevant firearm on it and he gives it to you.

This may cut down on RFD fees, as he no longer has to notify the authorities....the seller does that

We were all issued a Good Practise Guide for RFDs, which is also available on the Internet, 

One other thing of note: It is an offence for a RFD to take a deposit, or payment for a firearm without first seeing that the prospective purchaser has an open authority for that firearm on his license.....so no more asking someone to build you something 'while you send your FAC in for a variation'

[CameronWilson]

Thanks for the replies guys!

[MrCetrizine]

The problem I see with doing it this way is that the seller only sees a ticket and not the face of the person who supposedly was issued that ticket. So in theory, they could be signing their rifle onto a stolen ticket.

Then the buyer turns up at the local RFD and because the rifle is already signed onto it, how much of a check are they going to do if the person roughly looks like the photo? Especially in a busy shop.

A better way is if the seller signed over the rifle to their RFD who then signs it over to the buyer's RFD who finally signs it over to the buyer. There's a paper trail for the police and the time the buyer's RFD spends signing it onto their ticket would give them a chance to flag up something dodgy.

When I collected the rifle I bought where the selling RFD had me send them my ticket before sending the rifle to my local RFD. My dealer said he'd never sign a rifle onto a ticket if the holder wasn't standing in front of him.

[Akeld]

35 minutes ago, bradders said:

 

This may cut down on RFD fees, as he no longer has to notify the authorities....the seller does that

I doubt any will change their fees, after all they still have to  accept it from the courier and secure it, not sending an email won't free up much of their time

 

[bradders]

2 minutes ago, MrCetirizine said:

 

A better way is if the seller signed over the rifle to their RFD who then signs it over to the buyer's RFD who finally signs it over to the buyer.

This was similarly discussed at the meeting and the fact is....the way I mentioned "IS THE LAW"

[bradders]

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Good-Practice-Guide-for-Registered-Firearms-Dealers.pdf

[Big Al]

39 minutes ago, bradders said:

One other thing of note: It is an offence for a RFD to take a deposit, or payment for a firearm without first seeing that the prospective purchaser has an open authority for that firearm on his license.....so no more asking someone to build you something 'while you send your FAC in for a variation'

An offence under what law exactly Mark?

If someone gives me a deposit and I order in or have in stock an action, barrel, stock, trigger etc then it isn't a rifle of any caliber until I get the reamer out and build the thing. Even then if I chamber and proof the barrel and build the rifle completely there is nothing to say that this rifle belongs to anyone other than me until I give it to someone else and enter it on their license at which time they will have a permission to hold the said caliber.

I struggle to see how such a rule could be enforced or what benefit to anyone such a rule would even give?

 

 

[bradders]

1 hour ago, Big Al said:

An offence under what law exactly Mark?

If someone gives me a deposit and I order in or have in stock an action, barrel, stock, trigger etc then it isn't a rifle of any caliber until I get the reamer out and build the thing. Even then if I chamber and proof the barrel and build the rifle completely there is nothing to say that this rifle belongs to anyone other than me until I give it to someone else and enter it on their license at which time they will have a permission to hold the said caliber.

I struggle to see how such a rule could be enforced or what benefit to anyone such a rule would even give?

 

 

The Firearms Act

If someone comes to you and says "can you build me a .280/6.5-284 Wombat with a 78 deg shoulder and zero freebore etc" then you can only take a deposit and therefore issue a receipt for that deposit if you've physically seen proof they have authority to purchase or acquire a firearm in that calibre

Of course you may go ahead and build it but legally you can't take payment, either in part of full for a firearm someone doesn't have authority for....but you may run the risk of the prospective buyer changing his mind....in which case you will be stuck with a stock firearm

[Big Al]

Just now, bradders said:

The Firearms Act

Could you be a bit more specific as to the wording within the Firearms Act that covers this topic as far as you understand.

[bradders]

8 minutes ago, Big Al said:

Could you be a bit more specific as to the wording within the Firearms Act that covers this topic as far as you understand.

Nope, go and look it up

[bradders]

Again...from the link I posted

 

Quote

It is illegal to complete a sale (accept full payment) for a firearm, Section 1 component part or accessory or shot gun to a person who cannot produce a firearm or shot gun certificate authorising them to acquire the firearm etc. You may only take a deposit on a purchase prior to sight of the relevant certificate giving authority to purchase the firearm.

 

[Artiglio]

Evening gents

i stand to be corrected, but surely the excerpt Bradders has posted , clearly says that it is full payment that is illegal without having seen "authority to purchase" and that "you may only take a deposit prior to sight" means that  leaving a deposit is perfectly legal. Though any receipt would need to be brocken down to show that each certifiable component has only been part paid for.

Not taking full payment makes sense in that once an item has been paid for and the fact verified by way of a receipt, then effectivly ownership of the item has effectively changed at which point an offence has been commited if there is no authority to purchase. Where as in the case of part payment ownership still lies with the vendor.

Be grateful if someone could confirm one way or the other.

[bradders]

I appreciate there may be some ambiguity in that last sentence as it is written, but I personally feel that the interpretation is that a current authority must be valid on a FAC

Imagine someone walking into a shop and seeing a rifle behind the counter they want, then asking if they can leave a deposit on it, the dealer then asks "do you have an open slot for it?" and the customer says "no, but I'll send in for a variation"

A deposit is a transaction in my eyes, and at that point a transaction has been made on a firearm the punter doesn't have a relevant authority for.....of course the RFD wants to take the money and put it in his account...but technically he can't

[Vortex]

So a deposit on paying for a firearm is not allowed I understand that bit.

but paying someone to hold onto something for let’s say six months is not paying for a firearms only paying for someone not to sell said firearm. 

 

On the cant pay to have one built either get your variation first or you pay for a barrel blank which you can own without an FAC. Then once FAC is amended go to work. 

[TC]

5 hours ago, bradders said:

You may only take a deposit on a purchase prior to sight of the relevant certificate giving authority to purchase the firearm.

 I would interpret this that the ONLY thing that can be done PRIOR to sight of the relevant authority is the taking of a deposit

ie. (as para one) not complete a sale by accepting full payment.

The percentage of the deposit is of course at the RFD’s discretion ......

[CameronWilson]

OK, so assuming that the seller has to complete the buyers ticket BY LAW... What are your guys thoughts on posting your ticket - which details the firearms you already hold, and the address where they can be found - to someone you don't know?

I think I know what my firearms department is going to say when I ask them on Monday!

[Vortex]

We have had this exact discussion at the range. 

Its too open to having your FAC coppied and the process abused. 

Also you never see the actual FAC owner face to face. 

Where as most people use the same RFD to transfer firearms through and know that individual. 

Much safer the way we already do it. 

 

Also so on the subject of deposit all you are paying for is all the non FAC regulated parts on a firearm that you can buy online so you aren’t paying a deposit on an FAC restricted firearm. 

[bradders]

3 hours ago, CameronWilson said:

OK, so assuming that the seller has to complete the buyers ticket BY LAW... What are your guys thoughts on posting your ticket - which details the firearms you already hold, and the address where they can be found - to someone you don't know?

I think I know what my firearms department is going to say when I ask them on Monday!

Your licensing Dept sends yours out to you by RM 2nd class post.....

If you have any other questions then it would be best to contact your FLD for a clarification

[bradders]

2 hours ago, Vortex said:

We have had this exact discussion at the range. 

Its too open to having your FAC coppied and the process abused. 

Also you never see the actual FAC owner face to face. 

Where as most people use the same RFD to transfer firearms through and know that individual. 

Much safer the way we already do it. 

 

Also so on the subject of deposit all you are paying for is all the non FAC regulated parts on a firearm that you can buy online so you aren’t paying a deposit on an FAC restricted firearm. 

I discussed it with my dept, and they would prefer distant sales to go via dealers, therefore the seller lodges the firearm with the dealer who is sending, and the buyer sends his FAC to him.

With regards to FACs getting stolen, you would be returning the license to the address on the FAC, so that point is all a bit moot

[maltbuck]

Thank you Bradders for clarifying this matter.

Unfortunately this going to create problems when the situation arises, as in my current position, where you want to purchase a donor action / rifle and then rebarrel in another calibre.

My naive intention had been to get a vendor to send the rifle RFD to my RFD, who would then rebarrel it in the required calibre. Hence the original rifle does not enter my possession until it is in the calibre I have permission for.

So unless the vendor sells the donor rifle to his RFD, who can then transfer to my RFD, it will mean I have to submit my FAC to the Licensing Dept to get the donor calibre placed on it, then get the rifle sent to my RFD, then resubmit my FAC to the Licensing Dept to get my originally intended calibre placed back on the ticket?

I feel a phone call to the Licensing Dept coming on, as this type of thing is simply going to add to the paperwork load of the Dept.

Otherwise I will simply have to let the potential purchase slide and wait for a donor rifle to come up in the originally intended calibre which in the case of a 20ppc may be a long wait!

Regards,

MB

 

[chaz]

I've done a few sales with several different RFD's from different Police Forces, and it's always been the same. The buyer gets their chosen RFD to email the sellers RFD certificate to my RFD, along with the buyers/gun collectors details. I then sign over my gun to my RFD and i notify my Police Force. My RFD then sends my gun to the nominated RFD, who then sign it over onto their "Books", along with who it should go to. The buyer then goes to their chosen RFD and collects the gun having it placed on their ticket.

[bradders]

8 minutes ago, chaz said:

I've done a few sales with several different RFD's from different Police Forces, and it's always been the same. The buyer gets their chosen RFD to email the sellers RFD certificate to my RFD, along with the buyers/gun collectors details. I then sign over my gun to my RFD and i notify my Police Force. My RFD then sends my gun to the nominated RFD, who then sign it over onto their "Books", along with who it should go to. The buyer then goes to their chosen RFD and collects the gun having it placed on their ticket.

Which is not how it's supposed to be done according to the guidance (although to be honest that is how most people have done it)

The correct way is to send your FAC to the seller who enters it onto your FAC and notifies the Police. He then returns the FAC to you and sends the gun to your nominated dealer.

You then go to the dealer and show him your FAC with that gun already entered on there, books it out of his register to you, and that's it

[chaz]

2 hours ago, bradders said:

Which is not how it's supposed to be done according to the guidance (although to be honest that is how most people have done it)

The correct way is to send your FAC to the seller who enters it onto your FAC and notifies the Police. He then returns the FAC to you and sends the gun to your nominated dealer.

You then go to the dealer and show him your FAC with that gun already entered on there, books it out of his register to you, and that's it

The variations are so different, and open to interpretation. (So it would seem...) Why doesn't the seller then have to send his FAC to the buyer to complete the sale on his FAC. As in if you did it face to face. The system is so mixed up with all sorts of variations.....