Rifle bounce

[Spencer54]

Struggling with this a bit, my Tikka jumps quite significantly - initailly thought it was the pepperpot muzzle brake.

Even with that removed its the same.

 

Is this a bipod issue - I'm not sure of the manufacturer, could be a Harris clone or Caldwell?

[PaulC]

What calibre is it and overal weight? I have a vias Brake on a .338 fireing 300 grain bullets with hardly any bounce I shoot it on concrete and grass with a std Harris BRM so nothing too technical on the bipod front.

paul

[trucraft]

Might help to know calibre, shooting position,grass, bench and whether you're loading the bipod?

Spiked feet on the bipod will help you load them better and I imagine will give a great deal less jump.

[Catch-22]

Are you pre-loading your bipod (pushing forward slightly)? Doing so will help minimise jump. Another thing is to have the legs up against something hard and stable, like a ledge or board. Pre-loading your bipod with a solid surface against which the legs can be supported against, will definitely help minimise 'hop'.

 

Good video and advice on the subject here:

[bradders]

If you stopped using the wretched thing then you wouldn't get the bounce

 

The Good Lord® gave us elbows for a reason!

[Spencer54]

This is on a .308 Tikka Varmint with very sensible loads.

 

I fired my friends RPR and had nothing of the sort, and any other rifle I've fired.

This thing bucks for some reason.

 

I'm going to try Mk1 elbows next time out.

 

I had a google and looks like it's my body position and check causing it to jump left.

Never had this before on countless rifles.

[varmintexpress]

have you tried a different bipod then tried a different stock

[CameronWilson]

Interesting vid – thanks for sharing.

I need to try some of those tips on my .308WIN which jumps in the air no matter what I do.

[TJC]

A pepperpot muzzle brake isn’t ideal to help mitigate recoil. If your technique isn’t great then it exaggerates any weakness in your position. Get a brake that deflects force backwards rather than downwards which merely encourages the muzzle to ‘hop’. 

[Scotch_egg]

I have never read such rubbish, a pepperpot muzzle brake certainly mitigates recoil. I have one on a 7X64. 

[Safeshot]

On 08/10/2017 at 10:35 PM, bradders said:

If you stopped using the wretched thing then you wouldn't get the bounce

 

The Good Lord® gave us elbows for a reason!

Bipods are the devils work as Bradders points out. Ideal on an MG42 or Bren gun. Old fashioned I know but get hold of the forend and stop the bounce.? 

[TJC]

13 hours ago, Scotch_egg said:

I have never read such rubbish, a pepperpot muzzle brake certainly mitigates recoil. I have one on a 7X64. 

It’s good to know someone on here is capable of arguing that Newton’s laws of motion are wrong. 

Ask yourself three questions:

1. If muzzle blast is deflected downwards where does that force of motion direct the muzzle ? 

2. Why did Surefire re-design their brakes to includes diffusion ports at the top side of their brake ?

3. Why do competition shooters not use pepperpot designed brakes ?

This article is quite interesting and shows some working examples.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/08/12/muzzle-brake-blast-ground-signature/

As I alluded to previously, if you have good technique you can avoid ‘hop’ with or without a brake. If the OP is struggling with bipod hope he will find good instruction to be the best way to reduce ‘hop’ but he can also change his muzzle brake as that will help too. Naturally, if he’s shooting a rimfire it might not help much but the larger the calibre the more any weakness in his technique or equipment will be exaggerated.

 

[gbal]

Easy,boys- it varies with the design;Isaac Newton need not worry unduly.

 Note,the OP  said the hop was  there with/without the brake fitted-hence focus on the bipod.

Guess what-bipods differ too,A Rempel will not bounce like a Harris-partly because the Rempel slides a tad on its ski feet .MY Evolution differs a bit too,as does my SEb Joypod. My light B Square longer leg jumps even more.

Sorry Bradders,debbil got to me-I like to have the option of more hits on target.

 Loading -and a few other useage techniques mitigate. Movement-it's a fairly individual thing.

   Brake design is  variable too-the precision rifle review is informative. Some designs,peperpot or no,deflect some gasses up-helping reduce muzzle lift-some peperpots deflecy some gasses down-which will have the opposite effect,but overall small ,as more holes divert elsewhere. Many divert to side-partly to avoid dust being stirred up. All reduce recoil,variably with design,port size etc etc.

   Bench rests are differnt and much,though variably,heavier-my Farley co-ax is the best of the three I've used,but is very heavy. The  modal BR design allows the rifle to slide back over the front rest bag in recoil -not much given the weight of Fclass rifles;just a totally differnt ball game;brakes are not popular with other competitors-side/back blast can be enough to disturb precision aiming-try a 338 on either side!

    There is considerable choice in all this,and no point in sweeping generalisations-ditto effectiveness of moderators on sound attenuation and recoil reduction; but thankfully here, Newton's laws are not threatened by hot air.  

Let everyone get their kicks,or not ...as technology allows....    :-)

[Scotch_egg]

2 hours ago, TJC said:

It’s good to know someone on here is capable of arguing that Newton’s laws of motion are wrong. 

Ask yourself three questions:

1. If muzzle blast is deflected downwards where does that force of motion direct the muzzle ? 

2. Why did Surefire re-design their brakes to includes diffusion ports at the top side of their brake ?

3. Why do competition shooters not use pepperpot designed brakes ?

This article is quite interesting and shows some working examples.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/08/12/muzzle-brake-blast-ground-signature/

As I alluded to previously, if you have good technique you can avoid ‘hop’ with or without a brake. If the OP is struggling with bipod hope he will find good instruction to be the best way to reduce ‘hop’ but he can also change his muzzle brake as that will help too. Naturally, if he’s shooting a rimfire it might not help much but the larger the calibre the more any weakness in his technique or equipment will be exaggerated.

 

1. Newton’s third law For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.. The muzzle stays where is it. Just like having ports on the sides. It is not going to induce hop because of the port on top.

2. Surefire have clearly identified that a single port on the top stops crud being thrown up from the ground. I suspect is will also put force down into the bipod. 

3. Depends what competition you are referring to. Check out the muzzle brake on Vince 7wsm http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek071.html

[bradders]

37 minutes ago, Scotch_egg said:

3. Depends what competition you are referring to. Check out the muzzle brake on Vince 7wsm http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek071.html

It's also 3ft off the ground on a concrete bench (another wretched thing) so the downward blast isn't going to hit anything

 

The problem is people talk about basic marksmanship fundamentals, butr don't follow them

They get a rifle, screw a rest onto it, plop it on the ground and hope for the best.

Many times they can't even take up a proper position behind the rifle

[gbal]

 Design  means the left and right side ports are always equal,so cancel  laterally....(equal AND opposite). Upward ports are. Larger/more than downwards ports -so some dust may bepushed up,but not the net force on the muzzle is down....depending on the pepper pot arrangements -ar even differnt sizes of hole-and spiraling etc,the net vector force is not up or lateral,but reduced back recoil. The precision rifle blog shows the JP large vent design to reduce recoil the most-a bit like the old tank design,though increases blast for those on either side-been there,lost my bonnet,kept most of the bees. Equal and opposite is crucial-but equal is hard to measure without sophisticated pressure semnsitive gear-flaame etc won't do...and there is also the important 'spread over how much time'.....seems to be some underthunk stuff getting through here.

   I think there were some attempts at an uneven gas L/R deflection design to counter  alleged  torque peculiarities (service enfield rifle0 or even cant.....but  such lateral/ unequal  deliberate  design efforts were not adopted/successful.

Bradder's point of basic body position is a fair one- while there is some room for minor personal preference(or arthritis etc),a poor body podsition will  carry an increased 'recoil' penalty....

Proper gun fit was a considerable  expense incurred by the serious Edwardian game shooters,to minimise fatigue,induced  bruising,and missing...and probably  a factor in why  ivory hunters and big five safari hunters has a gun bearer...the unfatigued  body needs to be in the right place vis a vis the gun under recoil ( charging pachyderms obey Newton too,and need stopped, as top priority- a big double was the tool of choice-giving two heavy,solid shots quickly to the fit and well fitted shooter.)          :-)

[KatoomDownUnder]

On 12/11/2017 at 12:41 AM, bradders said:

The problem is people talk about basic marksmanship fundamentals, but don't follow them.

They get a rifle, screw a rest onto it, plop it on the ground and hope for the best.

Many times they can't even take up a proper position behind the rifle.

One good method to practice taking up a good position (prone) is to fire a group of about 10 rounds whilst having to get up and get each round from a pile several metres behind you. It's a good way to train yourself and if you can, have an experienced shooter observe you getting into position and correct where required.

[baldie]

Pepperpot brakes reduce recoil by the normal braking effect.

You have equal gas forces coming out of the ports in all directions, so therefore, the "hop will be no different, on , or off.

Some brakes work well with top vents, on others, its a positive retrograde step, dependant on the design of the brake, and what angle it vents at.

Pepperpots are great for setting fire to the grass with...

Your problem is not the bipod, nor the brake...its the stock. It can be negated somewhat by using a side venting brake, and indexing it [ or tuning it ] so the ports are not level, but slightly canted. Done the right way, it has the effect of pushing the rifle down and left [for a right hander ] it shouldn't work....but it does.

Tikka stocks, and other factory guns too, are not the greatest in-line designs. This allows the muzzle to rise, the worse the design is.

A stock which will allow the recoil to travel back in a straight line, always works better than a sporter style stock in this respect.

Poor stock fit...in other words, but you have to p**s with what you've got.

Good examples being the AI range, AR15's and a lot of the aftermarket chassis systems.

[meles meles]

We've always considered bipeds to be over rated...

[Andrew]

I have brakes of this man's design on my Ruger Precision 308 and my Tikka CTR 6.5 Creedmoor. These rifles are virtually recoilless with no hop.

Off a bipod, to boot. ~Andrew

https://muzzlebrakesandmore.com/

[VarmLR]

18 hours ago, meles meles said:

We've always considered bipeds to be over rated...

Particularly the Homo Sapien variety...

[Breacher]

On 11/11/2017 at 1:41 PM, bradders said:

It's also 3ft off the ground on a concrete bench (another wretched thing) so the downward blast isn't going to hit anything

 

The problem is people talk about basic marksmanship fundamentals, butr don't follow them

They get a rifle, screw a rest onto it, plop it on the ground and hope for the best.

Many times they can't even take up a proper position behind the rifle

Wrong.

Even with a bipod you still need to adhere to the principles.

And if you hold the forend of your rifle ( as opposed to butt ) when shooting off a bipod, its no different to mag resting - its just the support is bit further forward.

Using a bipod negates the principles no more than mag resting does.

[gbal]

I'd imagine that almost any shooting system/position/etc can be used/done well or not so well,thoufh a concrete bench  is almost impossible tomake wobbly!

   Agreed then,that 'good technique' applies.

I'm not sure if purists(no aids) like Mark (Bradders) allows magazine resting (it would be mischievous to suggest. That if god intended such use,he'd have designed a bipodal magazine-not just a banana taped pair. P (Or perhaps god was not very good at mechanics at the time,but this becomes a very slippery slope for those who appeal to the principle of what god intended,and has no place on this forum.Best just say it's a non argument either way-though not wihout some rhetorical use-either way).

   If magazine rest is allowed (in combat,and so in practical rifle,loosly construed),then the intention is clear-to increase control of muzzle wobble,and up the hit rate.

   Why not-thee is no purity worth having in a clean miss. But if so,why not do it a bit better-with a functional bit of kit,like a (Harris type) bipod-the concrete bench is another matter,though might afford some cover,if the guy shooting back has a bipod...you never know what other gods might intend ( :-)-forgive the blasphemy !

   I don't really get this issue-gear has tended to change over time,beyond dispute,and probably improve. By all means have 'rules' etc (and usefully different classes-like optics,or no scopes ,restrictedcalibres even...etc etc),but does it not all become just a different 'tech race'  (even 'as issued' -well where and when-we don't have semi auto etc etc--but the merits of some rules/regulations go way beond this post.) So,other than just arbitrary/or at least clear-what did god intend? And was he right? Did he have a UK FAC?(Good/god luck with that-as Einstein remarked," Yes G/g od  made the rules of his/the  universe,but did he have any choice?)

Can't we shoot and let shoot (a bit differently,maybe-heck,even better-though that is indeed a weasel word...unless you are hit).

Bottom line- I dont see the ten commandament principles (and am an atheist,anyhow if they are debateable)

gbal

 

[bradders]

1 hour ago, Breacher said:

Wrong.

Even with a bipod you still need to adhere to the principles.

And if you hold the forend of your rifle ( as opposed to butt ) when shooting off a bipod, its no different to mag resting - its just the support is bit further forward.

Using a bipod negates the principles no more than mag resting does.

Nope,

When used properly they can be an effective tool/accessory

The problem is that nowadays people are choosing to use them as a first option and neglecting the principles behind it all, namely building a good position, recoil control...and so on

With these contraptions (I won't even name them) you have a situation where many get sloppy, drop in behind the rifle at all sorts of weird angles to the line of fire and hope for the best, and in these instances it generally shows itself up where the only position where they would basically "dare" to take a shot is from the prone position, and if they so happen to be hitting near to where they intend to, they assume they're doing it right

 

Say what you like, I had my epiphany and never looked back. Mag resting isn't for everyone, but it's practical and natural, and at times when it isn't suitable then it's really hard to beat proper use of a sling

[No i deer]

I would not have a pepper pot style brake again.the last time I used one was shooting on century on snow.i was covered in snow at the end of the COF